Skill System in DayZ?

[shadowjack 254]

Not a fan of skill systems. They generally tend to be all give and no take. I appreciate the thought that the OP put into this its just not something i would choose for my DayZ experience. Give me a customizable skin and that's it. The rest is up to me and the choices i make, the consequences i suffer and how i deal with those consequences.

As for consequences for death. lets be real ... You die you loose everything, tents, camps, vehicles ... EVERYTHING is gone. It is too easy to re gear. It will still be easy enough if you have a group/clan you play with so really except for the lone-wolf types like me it shouldn't be a big deal. Yeah i know just cuz im dead my stuff wouldn't "realistically" vanish but it would be a good way of keeping the more rare items rare. Just leave the body with its contents in game till server reset but don't allow the person to salvage from their own corpse. Again, if you play in a group your buddies will be able to salvage for you so for many its not a big deal.

What can i say ... i have an anti hoarder fetish.

[com1 10]

no

[GodOfGrain 191]

[...]

As for consequences for death. lets be real ... You die you loose everything, tents, camps, vehicles ... EVERYTHING is gone. It is too easy to re gear. It will still be easy enough if you have a group/clan you play with so really except for the lone-wolf types like me it shouldn't be a big deal. Yeah i know just cuz im dead my stuff wouldn't "realistically" vanish but it would be a good way of keeping the more rare items rare. Just leave the body with its contents in game till server reset but don't allow the person to salvage from their own corpse. Again, if you play in a group your buddies will be able to salvage for you so for many its not a big deal.

What can i say ... i have an anti hoarder fetish.

That's what I call the "problem with player progression through equipment".

It is a central problem, but I am afraid not solvable.

If you'd find a solution for this problem, I'd give up on the idea of a skill system.

But I am afraid there is none. Preventing a player from looting his own body is already a bit arbitrary,

but this measurement itself won't help either! As its the groups who recover equipment.

With the implementation of underground bases hoarding will be even more simple.

If the game design does not put any value on a specific character, this has consequences.

For immersion, for abundance of PvP.

The only way I can think of is to bound progression via skills onto a specific character.

This is an environment game design can control.

Edited January 21, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[m00tley 50]

Here i'm again! =D

Well, i was thinking about this skill idea on the last couple of days and i came to a conclusion about what could be done about it. I see people complaining about the fact that they don't wanna "grind" so they can fix a helicopter, and that's ok (In fact i don't think it is ok, but let's just leave it be for the sake of the idea), let them repair their helicopter, BUT, not without a fucking mini-game, where you need to fix the helicopter piece by piece, something like lock-picking on skyrim, something that involves dexterity. You are able to fix it without any skill, but you are gonna have a harder time than the guy who has engineering (If you fuck up, you lose the material and maybe damage the helicopter even more). You wanna fix your friends leg? Do the fucking "Broken Leg Mini-game" but if you fail, your friend will have a hemorrhage and will most likely die. Wanna gut some animal? "Cut-The-Meat Game", if you fail you may cut off your finger.

Imagine that your friend got shot, ok? You need to remove the bullet, stop the bleeding and bandage him, ok?

Step 1: U r gonna need a knife, and will need to open up his leg (Let's say he got shot in the leg), if you don't have a good amount of medical skills, you character hands will shake more than normal. If you fuck up, you may end up causing a hemorrhage, or killing him depending on how much blood he still has.

Step 2: Apply stitches to the injury, if you fail, that's ok, but there's a chance that later on the stitches will fall apart and expose the injury again, which may lead to an infection.

Step 3: Blood transfusion. If you fuck up your friend will be just fine, but his aim will be fucked up for a while because of the pain on his arm.

This way, people who don't wanna bother grinding will be able to do W/E they want, BUT failure will have consequences (If you are a medic, an engineer, a hunter, u still have the chance to fail, and the consequences are the same, but the mini game will be easier for you.).

PS: That is just an example of how it could be done. This way people would still be able to do w/e they wanted to do and at the same time would make you consider that it is a better idea to find a real doctor instead of helping your friend by yourself.

PS2: Imagine someone fucking up a helicopter engine. It may fly, but it may fail during the flight.

[Bat (DayZ) 230]

I for myself think all learning in the game should come from player and not some kind of skill system you have to grind/do repetitive actions to master. It is far more rewarding to master a hard system for say, a hard medical system with lots of diseases and having to know which med to use depending on the symptoms and maybe even make mistake and kill yourself/your patient, than having to do repetitively the same action until you get that medical skill +1 that will give +10% chance of success for my next bandaging...

I mean, sure the mod as it is has no depth at all in it's mechanism, and some people might find it enjoyable to grind stuff, but I don't think it would be profitable for the kind of game DayZ tends to be : simulation.

[Bat (DayZ) 230]

Here i'm again! =D

Well, i was thinking about this skill idea on the last couple of days and i came to a conclusion about what could be done about it. I see people complaining about the fact that they don't wanna "grind" so they can fix a helicopter, and that's ok (In fact i don't think it is ok, but let's just leave it be for the sake of the idea), let them repair their helicopter, BUT, not without a fucking mini-game,

I don't want no mni game in my DayZ, no thanks sir! More seriously, If you played take on helicopters, for instance, in this game you have to learn to start your chopper engine. It is not a "mini game". You have to use the right buttons and levers at the right time or the chopper won't start and you might even damage the engine.

I think something like that for vehicule repairing would be awesome. You would need real life skills, or a wiki, and learn everything step by step and practise and focus to repair a car faster, or a medical operation, or even for dismouting cleaning your weapon.

Woule be so much more rewarding than a minigame, or a skill system, IMO.

[m00tley 50]

I don't want no mni game in my DayZ, no thanks sir! More seriously, If you played take on helicopters, for instance, in this game you have to learn to start your chopper engine. It is not a "mini game". You have to use the right buttons and levers at the right time or the chopper won't start and you might even damage the engine.

I think something like that for vehicule repairing would be awesome. You would need real life skills, or a wiki, and learn everything step by step and practise and focus to repair a car faster, or a medical operation, or even for dismouting cleaning your weapon.

Woule be so much more rewarding than a minigame, or a skill system, IMO.

OK, then how u suggest we fix the problems that we r trying to address on this discussion?

[GodOfGrain 191]

A skill system shouldn't replace the complexity we have right now.

Where complexity can be extended, e.g. complex TOH flight engine, I am all for it.

If it would be possible to add a simulation of a gun cleaning proccess, hell that would be great.

But most of this stuff would be out of the possibility, a game engine can't simulate everything adequately.

Mini games maybe a solution in a couple of areas, like lock picking, but in most cases they wouldn't fit in (feel gamey).

The skill system can add another layer of complexity into actions where skill cannot be simulated.

E.g. medical system, repairs, hunting etc.

@ m00tley

you're right pointing out that players should be able to do everything,

e.g. repairing, medical treatments etc.

We'd need to get the balance right. If exp is a requirement! to fix e.g. a helicopter, people would start grinding.

If it's just a matter of percentages, things look different.

You can fix the heli, but chances are you'll mess up the repair. Just find another engine part then.

The more experienced, the higher the success probability.

The difference between a fresh-spawn and a very experienced player should be no more than 30%,

to give a number. People wouldn't feel pushed into the necessity for any grinding actions.

Moreover, grinding can be prevented in many cases within DayZ, as we have a scenario of scare resources.

Happy to find a single bloodbag? Have fun grinding medicals skills with it ^^

Edited January 21, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[hoik 415]

If you'd find a solution for this problem, I'd give up on the idea of a skill system.

But I am afraid there is none. Preventing a player from looting his own body is already a bit arbitrary,

If the game design does not put any value on a specific character, this has consequences.

For immersion, for abundance of PvP.

The only way I can think of is to bound progression via skills onto a specific character.

This is an environment game design can control.

I have become convinced that disease and immunities is the answer to character progression (eg "skills") in DayZ. It does several things:

- Provides a very subtle way to "level up" characters.

- Provides risk/ reward system. I would imagine only two ways to gain immunity 1. catch the disease and survive it 2. Vacination (which also has risks).

- It also gives you incentive to try and survive what ever horrible disease you have.

- Makes character progression take time, and depend on cercumstance. Randomness/ Time = Value.

- Logically links your skills to a single life/reincarnation. This also = Value.

- "Gaming" or "grinding" this skill has some bases of belivablility. We "game" diseases in real life - chicken-pox party anyone?

- "Gaming" or "grinding" a disease may not be so easy when you don't know for sure what disease you are going to catch!

- Provides advantages to both non-PvP and PvP aspects of survival.

- Gives no direct advantage/disadvantage to PvP.

EDIT: more advantages of immunities

- Visual indicator: There will be a visual indicator of how likely a player is to have some sort of immunity. Veteran players (in terms of time spent alive) will have a distinct look compared to noobs.

- It encourages intimate knowlede of "yourself" in game, as well as building knowledge of diseases. This also = value. To have to get to "know" your character again would be a pain in the arse!

- Can incourage teamplay. Different players will have different immunities - one player may be able to access areas or objects in safety that others can not - for the benifit of the group.

- etc.

I'm sure there is other things I havn't thought of.

Well, will you give up on a traditional skill system :P.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Hoik

[GodOfGrain 191]

If that'd be enough to link a player to its character, yes.

Personally I like the system for other reasons as well, as a means to increase complexity

or a vehicle to simulate the long-term effects of e.g. gunshot wounds.

But the reason I stress this issue is indeed player identification.

You make a good point, a desase mechanic with immunities helps this cause and fits very well to the DayZ world.

You think it is enough? I am not sure ;)

[hoik 415]

It is definatly a tough one. Like many ideas I see on the forums, it is hard to say for sure how a mechanic will effect players without actually testing it in game.

Maybe in combination with clothing customisation (I want spurrs that make a "clink, clink, clink" everywhere I go :) ) and some sort of linage system (eg. having a "surname" that is perminatly associated with your GUID/cd key, or maybe being able to select certain items as heirlooms/momentos) you would be able to build different levels of customisation, some that are finite and will be lost and other that are not.

IMO it will probably have to be a combination of systems/mechanics to tailer to the variety of ways people view and play DayZ.

[m00tley 50]

We are on the seventh page of this topic and everyone is bashing the idea of having a skill system. Ok, people don't wanna use DayZ and Skills on the same phrase, but what about the issue that we are discussing? I believe that the point here is not exactly about the skills (And that is what i think everyone is having a hard time to understand), it is more about the problems the game has when it comes down to the social experience, and the OP is basically trying to solve this problems.

I believe that we currently have 2 problems when it comes down to social interaction on DayZ:

1st - No one is scared of dying.

Dying on this game is nothing more than an annoyance, death in this game is like death in World of Warcraft. What happens when you die in WoW? You walk your way back to your corpse and pick up right where you left it! Is someone afraid of dying on World of Warcraft? Nope, because you aren't losing anything by doing it. We gotta find a way to make people think twice before sitting on a hill near to elektro and snipe for 3 hours in a row, or run around cherno shooting everyone. The last time i checked, this game was supposed to be a zombie survival simulator, right? Do you think that the current state of the mod represents a zombie survival game idea? Nope it doesn't.

The idea of having a skill system is nothing more than a way to try to fix the first issue, by making people scared of making dumb decisions that may compromise 30 ~ 100 hours invested on the character and making people more related to their character.

2nd - No one values each others life. At this moment, the only value that someone has is based on their gear, and the only thing they get from that is a bullet to their head. Is that OK? Yeah, of course, if you are playing any other shooter game, that is just fine, but i don't see this game as a regular shooter game, and i think that if someone does, this person should PLEASE uninstall this game, since that is not the idea of the game, and the presence of this person on the community would only ruin the experience for people that REALLY want a game that stands out of the regular games that we have nowadays. If you wanna play a game where the idea is to see as much gore as you can, and have some zombies around you, go play dead island or something like that.

Talking about Dead Island, how many people got disappointed with that game? I know i did, and the reason is the fact that the marketing around that game promoted the drama around the zombie apocalypse, and failed at delivering it. They decided that making a game where you can kick zombies to death and run around like a maniac was cooler than the idea of the trailer. The final product? The game was a piece of crap, at list in my opinion and i believe that many others who were looking for the experience the trailer was showing also got disappointed. I really don't want this to happen to DayZ, but it is actually what is happening right now.

This mod has so much potential, but at this moment, is nothing more the a really boring mod. It is just a fucking death match with some zombies running around. If you guys have any idea on how to fix those issues without using a skill system (that would solve both of them), please, tell us, because i don't see any other way. You may say that the item durability will make people more concerned about their life or the diseases will make people value everyday that they manage to survive, but this only solves the first problem, not the second one, the one that makes people shoot each other without even thinking about it. Do you guys have a better idea than a skill system? If you do, please share it, if not, please stop bashing the OP idea, because you are not being helpful or productive, you are only wasting your time and our time.

[Wep0n 532]

a minigame can be a horrible idea in most cases, except in lockpicking maby, but most things do not require a minigame to represent one's own skill or knowledge.

as a medic you must find a diagnose. finding the correct treatment depends highly on your knowledge, and an extended system should be used to simulate that.

same thing for repairing vehicles.

you should be able to see what is broken by yourself. either make an interface which shows you the car parts, or even better, make it possible to crawl under the car and see what needs to be fixed.

you need a basic knowledge on car parts.

of course most of the things will be on the wiki, and you can learn it easily if it interests you, but it feels alot more achieving if you actually check out the problem by yourself, instead of a menu which tells you exactly what part needs to be replaced, or give you a stupid "chanche" of being able to fix something depending on the amount of vehicles your character already repaired.

A clear progress of the character can only be realized by the player's knowledge or visual effects on the character himself. everything else is artificial and doesn't add anything to the game.

everything which is not based on your own skill/knowledge/clothing/gear just makes the game feel unauthentic.

Edit: and adding resistances to sicknesses is a decent idea, but it would be neat if you add some visual effectcs on your character, so you can find something that distinguishes the resistant from the nonresistant. there needs to be some kind of visual feedback on progress, and not be a invisible factor the player might not even know about. maby some different facial colour or something else that shows the fact that you are hardened.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Wep0n

[shadowjack 254]

That's what I call the "problem with player progression through equipment".

It is a central problem, but I am afraid not solvable.

There are game mechanic solutions but they are worse than the problem. The best solution is in my own behavior. I am not so concerned with what the other guy has or can do. I have no control over that. I only control what i do. I accept that i wont have the best gear or the greatest skill (im old and my reflexes aint what they used to be) Thats ok, i know my limitations and understand i need to compensate for them.

[hoik 415]

Do you guys have a better idea than a skill system? If you do, please share it, if not, please stop bashing the OP idea, because you are not being helpful or productive, you are only wasting your time and our time.

I suggest alternatives - and there is no "bashing" on my part. I fully understand what the OP is on about and think that skills are one way of giving life value in DayZ. It is also the most obvious one IMO. All I want to do is try to bring to light other possibilities. I understand that subtlety is a hard thing to convey in forums, so this " :P " was just a friendly jab in the ribs, not a slap in the face.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Hoik

[GodOfGrain 191]

There are game mechanic solutions but they are worse than the problem. The best solution is in my own behavior. I am not so concerned with what the other guy has or can do. I have no control over that. I only control what i do. I accept that i wont have the best gear or the greatest skill (im old and my reflexes aint what they used to be) Thats ok, i know my limitations and understand i need to compensate for them.

It is simple a question of game design and how its structures influence player's behavior.

The individual will always behave in individual ways, as you are choosing a unique playstile.

But on a broad scale people will adapt to these structure.

Mid - to long term players find a way of behavior which best meets the specific structure.

So we have to look at the structure and analyze its patterns.

Current structure says: Your life means nothing, so don't take "survive for a long time" into consideration.

That's a big reason for the abundance of PvP.

[shadowjack 254]

Current structure says: Your life means nothing, so don't take "survive for a long time" into consideration.

That's a big reason for the abundance of PvP.

Perhaps i missed the real intent of the skill system. Is it to mitigate PvP?

I don't find PvP to be a problem and I am far FAR from a hardcore PvPer. It looks to me like the enhanced survival aspects of the SA will scale back the PvP at least some. Stripping players of their gear stockpile will give a bit more thought to some about being so casual with their life. Easy for me to say because i stash nothing. If i can't carry it on my back i don't need it.

I am good with seeing where they want to take the SA before spending much effort on potential player behavior issues.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

kudos to our constructive forces of this lively thread! this has to be said!

I'm actually on the verge of starting a new thread addressing the PVP vs PVE aspect and would set a link into this thread. any pleas?

Edited January 21, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Yeah this is our litmus test! how to get ppl away, quasi distract them from full PvP action more to PVE activities. Well of course, one of its cores is PVP, but the whole world and the atmosphere it constructs leads to so much more. it seems as the world invites you to explore and by wandering your path you see certain ppl come and go. Some of them help you, some of them try to kill you. With some you withstand threats, with some of them you become a threat. But nevertheless...ppl come and go.

I think the concept of this game was not as it feels at this very moment. I love the idea how to teach ppl to value each others gaming life. It's straight awesome. This is the core question at this point! How to solve it? Hell I don't know...But if there is a chance to DISTRACT, this would be a step into the right direction perhaps.

Edited January 21, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[dayzisthebest 4]

GO TO HELL WITH YOUR SHITTY CONSOLE IDEAS,

LEVELING, CHALLENGES, SKILL or WHATEVER

everything is JUST garbage!!! And it does not belong to the dayz!!!

Oh GOD when im reading all this posts on forum,Im really getting worry about the DAYZ standalone!

Edited January 21, 2013 by dayzisthebest

[joe_mcentire 2074]

GO TO HELL WITH YOUR SHITTY CONSOLE IDEAS,

LEVELING, CHALLENGES, SKILL or WHATEVER

everything is JUST garbage!!! And it does not belong to the dayz!!!

Oh GOD when im reading all this posts on forum,Im really getting worry about the DAYZ standalone!

u mad? shouldn't you be in bed at this time? why do you even post anything? 8 posts till now and every single piece is a devastating exhibition of your character so far my friend...

Edited January 21, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[dayzisthebest 4]

u mad? shouldn't you be in bed at this time? why do you even post anything? 8 posts till now and every single piece is a devastating exhibition of your character so far my friend...

obviously you dont like true?right?

[joe_mcentire 2074]

obviously you dont like true?right?

wow...you baffle me with your ability to argue. Chapeau!

So that's it then

[dayzisthebest 4]

wow...you baffle me with your ability to argue. Chapeau!

So that's it then

Read mzltv 's post @ 1 page.And you will understand.

[dallas 5195]

Although I don't think a skill system suits DayZ, no need to get carried away dayzisthebest. Calm down.