Realistic Sniping

[Botelho31 10]

Everything in green has been edited

So as you may know today in day z it is pretty easy to hit a target from far away with your AS50 so here are my suggestions so it can be far more realistic.

1.Wind.

So in many other games the wind greatly takes effect when you are using the sniper so im thinking that if we could implement this into the game the player should have a way to know the direction and intensity of the wind here are the examples of how that could happen.

-Players withouth sniping tools(this is an option for players that only have a compass):

i think this players should be able to feel the wind by the sound and maybe by an sound that could be selected when they are holding their snipers in wich your character says very silently that the wind is going in X direction and its Y strong (and maybe if they are lacking time in adding sound's they should just put a text in the screen that says that.

-Players with anemometers(tools that can check the velocity and direciton of air precisely)

these players can pretty much discover the exact velocity of air and the direction in wich it is blowing by simply clicking a hot key and if they have the anemometer it will show up on the screen pretty much like the compass and the watch shows up.

#NOTE:Since the bullets of .50 snipers will be pretty rare non-prepared or non-skilled players will think twice before taking a shot at a unarmed player because it will be pretty much wasting precious bullets trying to hit persons that don't threat them at all (be noted that this doesn't take the possibility of bandits shotting noobs at elektro if he has the skill and the bullets.)

2.Bypods and Weight

Today holding a sniper and taking a shot from snipers are pretty much the same as any other weapon so i think if you were to fire a sniper while standing up (the heavy .50 caliber snipers like AS50's and M107's) it would take a lot more recoil than if you took it while crouched or prone.

-Bypods(sometimes found with snipers and sometimes found alone)

Bypods would completely remove recoil and add a lot more of movement to the sniper.

-Weight

snipers take up the same spots in the inventory as any primary weapon so i personally think that snipers should take at least 2 to 5 slots more in the backpack and it should make people who are caring it move slower and get tired faster.

3.Sound

I think the sound that snipers make should temporarily make the snipers that are using it deaf (much like flashbangs) this could be implemented in other cases (assault rifles,sub machine guns etc) but this post is especialized in snipers so to remove the effect of deafness if you don't like it you could wear audio proof headphones that make it so you don't get the effect and if you dont use them you will eventually go deaf of so much noise.

4.Especialization Factor

In today's days there is no such thing as especialization in something at day z so if the devs made helicopters realistic for example it would make it so you need to find someone who can fly a helicopter before you try to fly one or you would probraly crash afterwards ,making so you can have a especialized squad where every member has his owns abilities but if you want you could try and master them all (rocket had the idea that if you were good at something IRL you should be good at it in the game).

Edited January 2, 2013 by Botelho31

[finkone 320]

So as you may know today in day z it is pretty easy to hit a target from far away with your AS50 so here are my suggestions so it can be far more realistic.

1.Aiming down sights

So today the view of a sniper when aiming down his scope is just the view inside the scope while the rest of the screen is black.My suggestion is that if we can still see down the scope but we can see outside it with a slight blurr effect(since you are concentrating on the middle)

Example:

#NOTE:If this will ever be implemented to the game, the players wont be able to stay right at your side withouth

you catching them with your peripheral vison.

2.Wind.

So in many other games(for example BF3) the wind greatly takes effect when you are using the sniper so im thinking that if we could implement this into the game the player should have a way to know the direction and intensity of the wind here are the examples of how that could happen.

-Players withouth sniping tools(this is an option for players that only have a compass):

i think this players should be able to feel the wind by the sound and maybe by an animation that could be selected when they are holding their snipers in wich they put they hand up to feel the direction of the wind (if they have a compass).

-Players with anemometers(tools that can check the velocity and direciton of air precisely)

these players can pretty much discover the exact velocity of sound and the direction in wich it is blowing by simply clicking a hot key and if they have the anemometer it will show up on the screen pretty much like the compass and the watch shows up.

#NOTE:Since the bullets of .50 snipers will be pretty rare non-prepared or non-skilled players will think twice before taking a shot at a unarmed player because it will be pretty much wasting precious bullets trying to hit persons that don't threat them at all (be noted that this doesn't take the possibility of bandits shotting noobs at elektro if he has the skill and the bullets.)

3.Bypods and Weight

Today holding a sniper and taking a shot from snipers are pretty much the same as any other weapon so i think if you were to fire a sniper while standing up it would take a lot more recoil than if you took it while crouched or prone.

-Bypods(sometimes found with snipers and sometimes found alone)

Bypods would completely remove recoil and add a lot more of movement to the sniper but it would take time to set up.

-Weight

snipers take up the same spots in the inventory as any primary weapon so i personally think that snipers should take at least 2 to 5 slots more in the backpack and it should make people who are caring it move slower and get tired faster.

4.Sound

I think the sound that snipers make should temporarily make the snipers that are using it deaf (much like flashbangs) this could be implemented in other scenes but this post is especialized in snipers so to remove the effect of deafness if you don't like it you could wear audio proof headphones that make it so you don't get the effect

All in all - it should be harder to snipe. The wind should play a large factor in the shot. You'd see a lot more people missing or taking more time to setup if the weapons system had a consolidated data sheet that comes with the ACE mod. I do not however agree with a lot of your postings... and I say why.

1 - When I'm looking through glass, with proper eye relief, space, and good cheek to stock well... I don't see whats off to my sides. I don't think this would be worth any time. I'm on focus for where my scopes at.

2 - ACE incorporates a full range ballistics upgrades that are better. I can get a general wind direction for my location, and the wind speed based on the color arrow. (Yellow light,darker orange/red heavy.) Now this doesn't dictate the wind mid range, which is the only important wind honestly - and real snipers often look mid / back range of the shot to collect data. In real life - you can simply feel the wind on your face, without a compass. You can look at tall grass down range, flags, mirage, rainfall direction, and tree tops... graphically this would be hard to put into the game without having to much - which is what bogged Arma II down in the first place... Yes DOPE books are recorded with firing location wind direction and speed, but thats for a general idea and often these ranges do not have much cross wind - Unlike compared to what firing into a city would do - where a intersection you are firing into could be giving you a strong W - E wind, while you are getting a reading of only a half value N - S E wind at your position... everyone still with me?

3 - Bipods take no time to setup. Recoil from a DMR or M24 is on a more minor scale compared to a AK47, which both use the 308 style round... The M107 is a recoil operated system, it has a 3 ft spring to damper and load another round - it kicks, but not as much as people think. A target can be required and another round sent within 5 seconds if prone (if dust isn't being a brat). I do however not support these skilled standing and kneeling shot for the HEAVY (107/AS50) weapon systems, these guys are 28 pounds without ammo loaded...

4 - The Db a M24 or DMR puts out would be the same to a AK47, and less then some machine guns such as the 240B... shouldn't these players also become deaf also? No weapons are quiet really... again ACE has a ability to put in ear pro.

Edited December 28, 2012 by FinKone

[Botelho31 10]

All in all - it should be harder to snipe. The wind should play a large factor in the shot. You'd see a lot more people missing or taking more time to setup if the weapons system had a consolidated data sheet that comes with the ACE mod. I do not however agree with a lot of your postings... and I say why.

1 - When I'm looking through glass, with proper eye relief, space, and good cheek to stock well... I don't see whats off to my sides. I don't think this would be worth any time. I'm on focus for where my scopes at.

2 - ACE incorporates a full range ballistics upgrades that are better. I can get a general wind direction for my location, and the wind speed based on the color arrow. (Yellow light,darker orange/red heavy.) Now this doesn't dictate the wind mid range, which is the only important wind honestly - and real snipers often look mid / back range of the shot to collect data. In real life - you can simply feel the wind on your face, without a compass. You can look at tall grass down range, flags, mirage, rainfall direction, and tree tops... graphically this would be hard to put into the game without having to much - which is what bogged Arma II down in the first place... Yes DOPE books are recorded with firing location wind direction and speed, but thats for a general idea and often these ranges do not have much cross wind - Unlike compared to what firing into a city would do - where a intersection you are firing into could be giving you a strong W - E wind, while you are getting a reading of only a half value N - S E wind at your position... everyone still with me?

3 - Bipods take no time to setup. Recoil from a DMR or M24 is on a more minor scale compared to a AK47, which both use the 308 style round... The M107 is a recoil operated system, it has a 3 ft spring to damper and load another round - it kicks, but not as much as people think. A target can be required and another round sent within 5 seconds if prone (if dust isn't being a brat). I do however not support these skilled standing and kneeling shot for the HEAVY (107/AS50) weapon systems, these guys are 28 pounds without ammo loaded...

4 - The Db a M24 or DMR puts out would be the same to a AK47, and less then some machine guns such as the 240B... shouldn't these players also become deaf also? No weapons are quiet really... again ACE has a ability to put in ear pro.

as i sad man the deafness could be implemented in another cases(or scenes as i sad ) but all the rest you sad is true.

and about the wind sorrry about not saying that but im very bad with words especially in english since its my second lenguage

Edited December 28, 2012 by Botelho31

[harley001 315]

This topic is over done. F*ck there was a topic with exactly the same title. In my opinion it is just people who don't like being sniped and blame the game instead. WHY? I have not seen a single topic complaining about stuff like....akms.

[Botelho31 10]

This topic is over done. F*ck there was a topic with exactly the same title. In my opinion it is just people who don't like being sniped and blame the game instead. WHY? I have not seen a single topic complaining about stuff like....akms.

because akms are quite realistic in the game and since the devs are working hard in making this game as realistic (still being fun) as possible then yeah, and think about it you would feel a lot more proud of getting a shot with these features implemented then with just staying hours in elektro firing in noobs running because right now its quite easy.And if later you became a pro in this you would be a very important person in your group and a reason for them not to kill you.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Botelho31

[KFC_Hoodie 0]

Harley u hate realism im right ? :D

to the post ...

1. I think u mean 3D Scopes ... but there should be more blur so like this: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/blogs/8848/b180-3d-scopes-update.html

3. The bipod should be simply like in Ace mod.

Edited December 30, 2012 by KFC_Hoodie

[TheSushi 28]

Funny thing is, the bullet drop in Arma II is very accurate to the real weapons. But yeah, windage is a big factor, as is having a well-prepared position. However, I wouldn't take the advantage of using a bipod or a gun rest too far - or you would create a worse gap in performance between a sniper and the guys trying to shoot back.

I personally think the large issue is weapon damage, and I'm posting a thread about that in a sec.

[babydoc (DayZ) 96]

It sounds more like you want DayZ to be a sniper simulator.

[TheSushi 28]

To be fair, when so many people just look for a sniper rifle and PK, I'm not sure that's a bad thing - making sniping more involved.

[VldZ 5]

You are making those suggestion because you don't want to get killed that often by snipers or you are actually a sniper who wants to play a hardcore mode ?:D

[KFC_Hoodie 0]

No i think because this Idea fix alot of problems in DayZ

[plrsniper 87]

Everything in green has been edited

So as you may know today in day z it is pretty easy to hit a target from far away with your AS50 so here are my suggestions so it can be far more realistic.

1.Aiming down sights

So today the view of a sniper when aiming down his scope is just the view inside the scope while the rest of the screen is black.My suggestion is that if we can still see down the scope but we can see outside it with a slight blurr effect(since you are concentrating on the middle)

Example:

#NOTE:If this will ever be implemented to the game, the players wont be able to stay right at your side withouth

you catching them with your peripheral vison.

2.Wind.

So in many other games(for example BF3) the wind greatly takes effect when you are using the sniper so im thinking that if we could implement this into the game the player should have a way to know the direction and intensity of the wind here are the examples of how that could happen.

-Players withouth sniping tools(this is an option for players that only have a compass):

i think this players should be able to feel the wind by the sound and maybe by an sound that could be selected when they are holding their snipers in wich your character says very silently that the wind is going in X direction and its Y strong (and maybe if they are lacking time in adding sound's they should just put a text in the screen that says that.

-Players with anemometers(tools that can check the velocity and direciton of air precisely)

these players can pretty much discover the exact velocity of air and the direction in wich it is blowing by simply clicking a hot key and if they have the anemometer it will show up on the screen pretty much like the compass and the watch shows up.

#NOTE:Since the bullets of .50 snipers will be pretty rare non-prepared or non-skilled players will think twice before taking a shot at a unarmed player because it will be pretty much wasting precious bullets trying to hit persons that don't threat them at all (be noted that this doesn't take the possibility of bandits shotting noobs at elektro if he has the skill and the bullets.)

3.Bypods and Weight

Today holding a sniper and taking a shot from snipers are pretty much the same as any other weapon so i think if you were to fire a sniper while standing up (the heavy .50 caliber snipers like AS50's and M107's) it would take a lot more recoil than if you took it while crouched or prone.

-Bypods(sometimes found with snipers and sometimes found alone)

Bypods would completely remove recoil and add a lot more of movement to the sniper.

-Weight

snipers take up the same spots in the inventory as any primary weapon so i personally think that snipers should take at least 2 to 5 slots more in the backpack and it should make people who are caring it move slower and get tired faster.

4.Sound

I think the sound that snipers make should temporarily make the snipers that are using it deaf (much like flashbangs) this could be implemented in other cases (assault rifles,sub machine guns etc) but this post is especialized in snipers so to remove the effect of deafness if you don't like it you could wear audio proof headphones that make it so you don't get the effect

1. Aiming down an acog sight or scope does NOT allow you to use your peripheral vision like that. If you are capable of looking with both eyes open (like an Apache Longbow pilot for example) then you would still only see your left side of the scope and you would not be an effective shooter that way anyways. Red dots, CCO's and other variants are meant to be looked through with both eyes however and that's kinda what we already have...

2. BF3 doesn't simulate wind at all. Only bullet drop (poorly i might add) and TOF are simulated.

As already mentioned, ACE does a fairly well job at simulating wind and (IIRC) even the coriolis effect. For what it does with sniping it does a very fine job even though most snipers playing ACE just ignores all the technical aspects of it and simply make a guesstimate and take a shot and adjust right afterwards. Though that isn't viable at ranges > 1,000 meters and i have landed perfect headshots with ACE at 1,800+ meters and that isn't "easy" but of course it isn't "hard" either if you know what you are doing.

Players without the "proper tools". Once again, ACE has the wind direction hotkey that gives you a colored arrow that roughly estimates the wind conditions. (and that can even be applied to assault rifles since those bullets are also affected by the ACE wind)

And ACE has the Kestrel 4500 which does give you exact figures of wind direction in relation to the target, both sidewind and headwind. And a proper setup would be a spotter and sniper where the spotter tells the sniper the wind speeds and ranges targets and the sniper adjust the MOA on his scope for accuracy.

.50 cal bullets are not really rare in DayZ (still) and further more, .50's will eat anything within 800 meters range with or without proper tools providing the shooter zeroes his scope properly.

3. Yes, weight should play a greater role in DayZ (and ArmA in general) and there should also be a stamina system that is more in depth than it currently is. So if you are low on energy (read, haven't eaten and/or are sleepy) then weapon sway would become even worse.

Bipods are likely to arrive with the standalone as they "entityfy" the weapons (allowing for a weapon by weapon differences, maintaining them, cleaning them, replacing parts, attaching different accessories etc) and once more, ACE has a very good "bipod" system where you can rest any weapon on top of any object. (hood of a car, rock, side of a tree, wall, shoulder of another player, backpacks ETC ETC)

And if the weapon has a bipod in ACE you can "rest" your weapon on flat ground too. It would be rather trivial to implement the same in DayZ if the ACE developers would share their code with DayZ.

As for "weight" and packpack space, you seem to get the wrong idea here. Again, ACE to the rescue where you can carry a backpack AND a secondary weapon. And the backpack has a capacity defined in CC (Cubic Centimeters) and each item weighs X Kilograms. If you load too much in your backpack weight wise you lose stamina faster, you can't run as far (or even run at all if extremely overburdened) and if you try and keep running you pass out from exhaustion. That system works beautifully so why re-invent the wheel?

Everything you carry (inside or outside your backpack) is counted towards your weight. The only thing missing in ACE is bulk goods taking up a certain number of "slots". So you could possibly carry a whole assault rifle in a small bag even though the bag is smaller than the rifle itself lengthwise. Still a much better system than that of DayZ.

Short of using the ACE backpack system, then yes i agree that sniper rifles should be larger than assault rifles, smg's and pistols. But that also calls for bigger backpacks that can be found because lets face it, this is still a game and we don't want to be forced into tedious running for hours just so we can have the right tools on one spot and another set of tools at a different location running back and forth like a mule to switch gear.

A single person in real life can carry a lot more weaponry than your average DayZ person with a coyote backpack.

4. I feel like i am providing a selling argument here but... ACE has earplugs, if you don't use them in ACE you get tinnitus and eventually go deaf around heavy weaponry.

Add this feature but also add earplugs that one can wear while taking the shot.

[TheSushi 28]

Yeah, BF3 has no wind. It just has lead against moving targets. Wind is rather complex, as you need to know the exact speed in MPH / KPH at the gun, between, and at the target to make the changes to your scope. You generally have handheld windspeed calculator, or a chart of wind speeds in the local area, plus shooting when the wind has a momentary pause. Just knowing the wind is blowing doesn't help all that much at long range.

If the Day Z devs wanted to be super realistic, they could add a range card and simplify the process, but who knows how that would go?

Edited December 31, 2012 by John_234

[nomonater 2]

First idea on the blurring around is not good. If you ever shot a rifle you would know you close one eye to focus through the scope you see nothing else but the inside of the scope.

[dystopeon 46]

yeah this topics' been around since before 1.5 - yup we need wind simulation. it's not a challenge to snipe & too many nubs with hightech rifles. Sniping & flying should have the highest learning curves, enough to keep the non-practiced player unable to hit basic targets or fly a heli.

[Botelho31 10]

some very good criticisms here so based on those im gonna take out the first topic and the BF3 reference

[Botelho31 10]

You are making those suggestion because you don't want to get killed that often by snipers or you are actually a sniper who wants to play a hardcore mode ? :D

i think that if we would implemented this into the game i would feel much better in killing anyione because of how difficult it could be :)

[colekern 1364]

It sounds more like you want DayZ to be a sniper simulator.

It sounds like he wants sniping to take more skill. I hope that, In order to be good at something in DayZ standalone, you would have to practice it. Sniping, piloting, assault, repairing, medical, etc.

[colekern 1364]

I agree. Someone (FinKone) talked about skill. He said that, in order to be good at something, the player would have to practice. Basically, his character wouldn't get any advantages whatsoever, but the player himself would get better. Then there would be no need to add a artificial skill system.

[tom cullins 0]

This game is already a sniping simulation.

[codeakira 0]

sound must be as realistic as possible. Experienced players should be able to determine how far the shooter is based on the the sound being heard after the bullet landed. I dont know if this is implemented already.

[Soxter 3]

Sniper realistic will be nice idea, but has a lot more things that need DayZ team focuses.

[Trizzo 632]

First idea on the blurring around is not good. If you ever shot a rifle you would know you close one eye to focus through the scope you see nothing else but the inside of the scope.

Some do, advanced technique and long time shooters will use, or are encouraged, to use both.

And while valid this topic has been done to death. Wind will not be added me thinks due to its complexity and the difficulty in implementing an equtiable visual cue (that does not require a super computer to display 800m of different windage) and this alone leaves very few ways to complicate sniping. Coriolis effect is so minor on small arms it's a non factor... besides living in minds of certain fan boys.

sound must be as realistic as possible. Experienced players should be able to determine how far the shooter is based on the the sound being heard after the bullet landed. I dont know if this is implemented already.

It is, roughly.

This game is already a sniping simulation.

I don't think the coast has been kind to this traveler...

Edited January 16, 2013 by Trizzo

[machineabuse 31]

All they need to do is implement the elevation turret on the scopes and welcome in the wonderful world of range cards. There are different levels of absurdity when it comes to how deep you want to get into "real" long range shooting. ACE mod is probably as far as one would reasonably want to go implementing something like that.

ArmA 2 itself has a fairly reasonable abstraction of sniping, but the I reckon that the prevalence of snipers in DayZ is a symptom of that type of weapon being too common a drop more than it is the low skill barrier to entry.

I wonder when weapon reliability is added in SA whether they will allow you to clean the gun which will cause your first shot to be a cold bore shot. That and point of impact shift if you add a suppressor to a rifle. <-QED what the absurdity of realism fetishism is like.

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

All they need to do is implement the elevation turret on the scopes and welcome in the wonderful world of range cards. There are different levels of absurdity when it comes to how deep you want to get into "real" long range shooting. ACE mod is probably as far as one would reasonably want to go implementing something like that.

you have range cards, like this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/97022548/Arm-a-2-Weapon-Ranging-and-Correction-Guide

and other rifles like as50, m24, have zeroing (basically the same as adjusting range on the scope turret)

The only thing that needs to be changed for the worse IMO is weapon stability, it's ok for trained soldiers (ARMA) to sprint, stop, aim at 500 meters in 2 seconds, but a random malnourished survivor would not be able to stabilize the weapon like chuck norris, nor keep it dead steady at 1500 meters without bippod+monopod/stand...