(Original)Standalone close quarters struggle...

[finkone 320]

A struggle suggestion, gentlemen. Not a fight suggestion.

POLL REMOVED, TO MANY METHODS LISTED.

GREEN TEXT ADDED ROUGHLY 14-16DEC12

ORANGE TEXT ADDED 21DEC12

Since they stated that the standalone will have a melee system I think another smaller system within that could do wonders.. So for all you guys that skim read posts and then troll it - you need to pay attention, I'm not saying this struggle suggestion needs to be or is the main combat system. It could be built into it and perhaps a smaller option of the over all theme.

I'll try to spoon feed it.

Concept (Overall)

If two players are within a foot of one another - each player has the ability to initiate a "struggle" - I'm not talking street fighter brawl - I'm talking a realistic struggle that you'd find yourself in if you bump'd into another person while rounding a corner during times like these in game... The two players will be given a few options once one of them was picked struggle within range.

1) Give up (a static option) (Pressing your assigned key gives up.)

2) Attempt to reason (This key will just make your character voice a audio sound - indicating if the other person presses this key - the struggle will stop under mutual agreement (Pressing your assigned key issues the sound.)

At any time, number 1 or number 2 option can be picked by pressing the static assigned key.

3) Struggle - now for this section I have several ideas...

First 4 Methods below are based on a standard QTE

Method 1 of struggle - A series of random keys thats dictated by the server must be pressed. (for example both players will see a W key on their screen) whoever presses the W key fastest - wins that key step. The first person to get 5 keys (adjustable) wins the struggle.

Method 2 of struggle - Turn the struggle into a button mashing keyboard breaking frenzy and make the player feel the pressure of the struggle. Again a unkown total number of key strokes could be placed to decide the winner - this key will be a static struggle key, such as S. So whoever pushed the S key fastest to reach, say... 85 - wins the struggle.

Method 3 of the struggle - Players both have to enter a series of keys in a fast manner, whoever completes the random series of keys first that the server dictated, wins the struggle.

Method 4 of the struggle (14DEC12) - Your character starts to go into a "tunnel vision" mode (just a visual deal), at which the player needs to use his mouse to look into the more visual area of his screen to keep focus in the struggle (from a FPV, as if you are in Alt-double tap's mode.). This would require the coding of a mini hidden game in the background so to speak - the person with the highest score at the end of 8 seconds wins, and the struggle is completed by the 10th second. This would eliminate any type of discrimination against a player that has a crap connection as compared to something with a better ping.

Second batch of methods inspired by WiFiN (21DEC12) with his permission I'd like to merge the two ideas and get the best input from the players that we can...

Method 1 of batch 2 - Players have a series of options to pick, as follows - one option is selected (server automated, server picks the winner based of decided percentages)

1) Attempt to break free - player being attacked has a higher percent chance to knock down his attacker if picked, and is given time to flee

2) Attempt cheap shot - a low-blow animation is taken, equal chance of players landing

3) Attempt choke - player attacking has a higher percentage chance to attempt to choke out the person which leads to a minor knockout

4) Attempt to stun - both players can pick the 4th option at any time - for example maybe the attacker realized hes attacking a guy that has a buddy, and needs to stun this fella to move out - has a lower success rate but a higher yield for a swift end result. A stun will have minor effect on the performer when failed

Method 2 of batch 2 - Players take active control with options in the struggle. Options cannot be spam'ed and players must wait for the animation to complete before another attempt.

1) Push away - percentage chance performed, players break free and both stumble away

2) Trip - percentage chance performed, winning player has upper hand over downed player.

3) Punch - percentage chance of the out come of the punch (minor life reduction, knocked out, knocked down - possible broken bones from being knocked down)

4) Knee - percentage chance of the out come of the knee (minor life reduction, major life reduction, knocked down - possible broken bones from being knocked down)

Conditions to enter a struggle (15DEC12) -

Condition method 1 (16DEC12)-The conditions to enter a struggle would be limited to 1) being extremely close to a person 2) 1 party being stationary. That being said - a person could run up to a shooter if they are not careful, and start a struggle if said shooter remains stationary. This however would not allow players that are currently in any type of axe-circling match be tricked into a struggle - if the players are under constant movement to prevent any abuse / trolling of a struggle..

Condition method 2 (16DEC12) - The player will have the option to attempt a struggle if they are at the back of a opponent, if the opponent has been stationary for a small period of time, a higher percentage chance of a struggle taking place is present. If the person is active - the chances of a struggle are lower. This will keep players from trying to move behind one another only when fighting to discourage abuse and over use.

Why would we need this?

I think this would add to the over all excitement of that random close encounter you come across once in a blue moon. The person that looses the struggle suffers random outcomes - such as being knocked completely out, being knocked back, or even breaking a bone from a fall from the spar.

It could also be used on zombies that you've approached unaware, to take down silently. The chance of infection should be higher when this close of contact is made to a zombie of course.

(21DEC12)The over all reason to keep this as a quick time event (THAT IS SHORT, NO MORE THEN 10 SECONDS) - as based on other players systems that sub-posted threads of my idea, is because if there is a attack/counter attack move - players will often just play defensively towards one another and this could generate a rather prolonged and annoying locked in fighting situation. With that being said I also added a small fighting method under the updated section - one that might work but would surely extend the whole fighting script...

"Well wouldn't players just try to get into a struggle when its 1 vs 2 - just to keep the guy from firing?"

If the animations where done correctly, and both parties in the struggle shifted about, making it hard to get a shot without hitting your buddy close range this would be a minor cure to the problem. Players have to be extremely close to engage in a struggle, and chances are if its 2 vs 1 at such a close range, might not turn to well for you in the first place. The struggle shouldn't in my opinion last any longer then 10 seconds, and the camera angle should be cinematic to the effects of a fight (perhaps a forced first person view while in the struggle, and it will return to which ever state you had it in afterwards 3rd or FPV)

I think its a small addition, that down the road would add to the depth of DayZ. I'm not saying I want to see it in the DayZ standalone tomorrow, there is way more important things on the plate... would it would be pretty funny to be a fresh spawn, sneak up behind a bandit, and just start beating his ass - or if you are the bandit that gets crept up on, and you end up kicking him down and gunning his little bambi chest out.

I'm sure I could enter more details - this is just a rough idea... be gentle community, be gentle...

Some users get what I'm going for here - others don't.

I think it only seems ill suited because it currently does not exist in the game. once it was implemented it would suit the game fine.

as for "all the melee weapons why am i fist fighting someone"... i think the general idea here is that yes, you had a knife out and intended to stab this guy, but he (realizing this probably) ran close to you and removed the effective space you need to utilize your weapon, now meaning you must free yourself from him in order to use it again. since it is a struggle or grapple for leverage to possibly use your weapon, and not a bout of fisticuffs. you dont stand still and try to box someone an ax. you need to close the gap and remove the potential for the weapon to be used against you, or you need to try to escape. in this sense it is very logical for a struggle/grapple system.

it is a new game and there will be much coding to do, so i dont think extra coding should rule out a whole feature, because everything in this game will require new coding, therefore that seems like flawed logic.

lastly, i have no real comment on his attitude, i suppose he is touchy and aggressive but on the other hand few people here are being constructive or actually addressing his idea as he presented it.

Edited December 22, 2012 by FinKone

[elf cakes 559]

yeah, this is what i hope they do with the close quarters melee system. it would be so intense

[finkone 320]

Yea I think perhaps I might look into getting a poll going for the methods - of if anyone else has any other suggestions.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

I like this. There will be a greater emphasis on melee combat in standalone.

[theozzyoscar333 3]

beans for you

[finkone 320]

I'm waiting. Theres gonna be that one beanless bastards that comes in and gets me - I know it. I'll try to refine the idea better tomorrow.

[GotBeanZ 45]

*Nods approvingly*

They should get knocked out for a random period of time, between 15 seconds and 1 minute maybe? The chance for getting a broken bone should increase gradually, or maybe something less severe (I'm thinking twisted ankle, which is like a temporary broken bone), the longer the struggle continues.

Eh, anyway, beanz! :beans: :beans:

Edited December 14, 2012 by GotBeanZ

[Hetstaine 10852]

I'm waiting. Theres gonna be that one beanless bastards that comes in and gets me - I know it.

... Hi :)

I like the idea but implementation needs some work. The key appearing on screen is extremely unappealing to me, so are the other two :D how about we just have user defined keys for certain melee actions like block ,punch, kick etc ? I also don't like the cinematic thing, would become boring and make me go fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu everytime it started panning out, making me avoid any melee combat, or just instantly shooting someone to avoid the pain of it.

I will wait for your redifining but here is your awaited can.. :emptycan:

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Not big on the key mashing.

[badbenson (DayZ) 38]

only if there's a rape/struggle cuddle combo that can only be performed by the masterful struggler.

on a serious note: what you suggest sounds an awful lot like a quick time event which is not only boring but also very undynamic. i also think that simple hit, block and push would be enough tools to make people who want to fight eachother able to in a tactical manner but also avoid locking you down in a spot/scene ready to be picked off by the next sniper.

it just doesn't fit a game like dayZ that is so dominated by long range combat. i would love to be able to sneakily take people out from behind and be able to take their stuff or take them captive. funny stuff would happen.

[Josh225 129]

I love this suggestion to death, one of my favorite ones yet. I like the idea of being able to dispose of threats without necessarily killing them or maybe being able to use a mechanic like this to take hostages.

Reminded me a lot of the battlefield 3 campaign melee events

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

If I wanted to button smash my keyboard I would just listen to metallica and pretend its a guitar.

Cinematics are torture especially if its leading me into button smashing, If I could just walk up and punch a guy I would be more satisfied as I'd just do that for months more pub brawls in cherno .

:emptycan:

[Chiromishi 28]

I would love if the actual fight would be determined by direction. As in the way the 'struggle' is played out.

For example, say "Player 1" started the struggle from behind, and "Player 1" had a rifle, I believe he would hoist his rifle over and begin choking/strangling "Player 2" until specific keys were pressed (Or button mashing, which I heard is strenuous on a keyboard and very un-fond of by players...). If "Player 1" pressed the keys fastest/specific order correctly, "Player 2" would be knocked unconscious for a determined amount of time (About 1 minute), due to a lack of oxygen. If "Player 2" won, He pull out a 'hunting knife' and stab "Player 1" in the leg, rendering "Player 1" bleeding and force a knock-back. (A different scenario would play if there was no knife on "Player 2", which I have not thought of.)

A simple thought is all I mentioned. But I'd really like that if whoever did not start the struggle be inflicted with more harmful damage than the one who started the struggle. I would also like it determined based upon items equipped, that would be the best thing ever. (Although there goes the more memory usage...)

Also for specific keys pressed, I meant like Method 3 as OP explained. Someone has my freshly found beans, straight from the market. Let's hope there is actually something that is better than CoD's 1-stab knife which somehow kills in one-stab.

[Shadow Man 142]

Button mashing of any sort is a big no from me. Its also unfair due to different ping times, not to mention potential lag issues.

I think melee will most likely be used for stealth killing, or rush killing silently. Run as fast as possible zig zagging straight up to a player and slash their throat.

[logan23 118]

I love the idea and concept!

I understand the issue with not making it feel like a quicktime event, - smashing buttons faster then other player.

I came up with some ideas and mechanics on how the concept you presented in game.

If players are close enough then they can click a button to go into the struggle mode

There needs to be animations for situations-

Unarmed vs rifle/sniper gun/ax

Unarmed vs hand gun/ machine gun

Unarmed vs unarmed

During the struggle the player can hit a button which will be an attack on the there player while in struggle

(It is the timing of using the button - If you use it at the wrong time, it will work against your struggle, but use at the right time it will cause the other player to get an elbow or but of the gun hit to the body/face.)

This will keep the player from button mashing since it would work against you.

Unarmed player will kick or elbow other player

Rifle/sniper/ax/crobar use the but of the gun like an elbow motion

Hand gun you will be both holding and struggle for the gun, player with gun has a chance to fire gun into other player foot while unarmed will kick player

All struggle will create noise and if gun is fired - both could attract attention from infected

The struggle mechanics are centered around certain factors

Water level

Food level

Stamina

Fresh spawn

Vet survivor

Sick or well

Injured- blood level

Broken bone was just set

These factors are played onto a formula which gives us who will win the struggle if the other player is not able to get upper hand

Ends of struggle-

No struggles end up with an unarmed player able to take the other's gun or melee weapon.

If struggle ends based on stats then the winner will hit with but of gun or kick the other player back and down on the ground. That player will have a shake handle on weapon if present or blur effect ( you want to create a push away distance so the player can have the opportunity to run - if say the player won a struggle with an armed player and they have no weapon)

The winner can either run away, pull their gun and fire , punch the player- But the player who is on the ground if armed with a gun can still fire at you.

To win by use of kick, elbow, but of rifle/ax ,or shoot player in foot (shoot in foot does not cause bleeding just pain)

Depending on the stats and the stamina plus your vet status can factor in how much a beating can you take before losing struggle

If both players are armed they can still go into struggle by the player who hit the button first becomes the unarmed aggressor, but most situations on two armed players will simply fire the gun

With a system like this- you only need a limit number of animations and only has one button to hit as you struggle but it must use at the right time .

Since struggles don't equal players losing guns and no instant death or major injury-- allows the event to happen but players can't abuse it.

Oh struggle could be good to keep player in a struggle while a buddy comes in and shoots the non friendly player.

What do you think?

[DayZoey 110]

Yeah I'm sorry but I believe this is a terrible idea. Quick Time Events in DayZ? Get enough of those in modern gaming as it is where it doesn't belong, it doesn't need to be here too.

I think a better idea rather than QTE would be to have more of an Unchartered or GTA4 approach to melee combat, you get close to someone and you can "Lock on" (meaning your camera follows them) while you attempt to punch their face in. They could in turn punch back, back off and run away or if they have a gun, shoot you in the face for bringing fists to a gun fight. In the event that you have two players with rifles or one player with a rifle without ammunition though, it would certainly be interesting to see them using their weapons to block and club with.

QTE events in a survival game though? Hell no. I would not touch this game with some one else's ten foot pole even if they were the one holding it if it had quick time events. If you've ever played Splinter Cell Conviction versus you'd know how much QTE PVP events blows goats.

[finkone 320]

Yeah I'm sorry but I believe this is a terrible idea. Quick Time Events in DayZ? Get enough of those in modern gaming as it is where it doesn't belong, it doesn't need to be here too.

I think a better idea rather than QTE would be to have more of an Unchartered or GTA4 approach to melee combat, you get close to someone and you can "Lock on" (meaning your camera follows them) while you attempt to punch their face in. They could in turn punch back, back off and run away or if they have a gun, shoot you in the face for bringing fists to a gun fight. In the event that you have two players with rifles or one player with a rifle without ammunition though, it would certainly be interesting to see them using their weapons to block and club with.

QTE events in a survival game though? Hell no. I would not touch this game with some one else's ten foot pole even if they were the one holding it if it had quick time events. If you've ever played Splinter Cell Conviction versus you'd know how much QTE PVP events blows goats.

So let me get this straight - you want to add a locked on GTA combat system instead of a 10 second struggle script? With my idea, the struggle will not be static, not controlled by the player, but not stationary either... At which anyone watching the fight would have a hard time getting a shot off at the two fighting because of constant moving of the two in the struggle? I'm not talking about a cute static struggle, people roll, trip, fall - all types of things.

...First off - nothing stops the loosing player from just running off at any time when they start to loose (With your GTA approach for the fighting issue), after circling each other 30 times... -.- (WHICH IS WHY A REQUIRED LOCK IN FIGHT SHOULD TAKE PLACE)

Second I don't want to have to circle around some guy randomly swinging my fists and hoping to connect because players start to use irregular movement patterns - this setup your talking about would look stupid as hell to watch on anything youtube related and would look even more retarded being involved with (in regards to being realistic).

Third I don't want to have my camera lock onto anyone, this is DayZ...

I would stop playing DayZ if it went with your idea of a fighting system. I agree that you should be able to fight also, but with the ability to take flight (run away) at any time, a person not getting winded to escape, irregular movements of players to benefit from game mechanics during a fight... not olny would your method look retarded, it wouldn't work. I've thought about posting about a fighting script - and the most realistic and sensible one from that brain storm I got was a struggle system.

I'll be adding more to my post up top when I get time, I only got to read the last few posts so I'll see if anyone also puts up additional ideas. I already have 2 more methods of struggle ideas that seem a lot more DayZ style.

Oh BTW

logan23

That seems like a really nice idea - that if not knocked out, but knocked down after a struggle a player would be able to return fire if he his armed. I haven't even thought that deep into the idea yet.

Edited December 14, 2012 by FinKone

[logan23 118]

Yeah I'm sorry but I believe this is a terrible idea. Quick Time Events in DayZ? Get enough of those in modern gaming as it is where it doesn't belong, it doesn't need to be here too.

I think a better idea rather than QTE would be to have more of an Unchartered or GTA4 approach to melee combat, you get close to someone and you can "Lock on" (meaning your camera follows them) while you attempt to punch their face in. They could in turn punch back, back off and run away or if they have a gun, shoot you in the face for bringing fists to a gun fight. In the event that you have two players with rifles or one player with a rifle without ammunition though, it would certainly be interesting to see them using their weapons to block and club with.

QTE events in a survival game though? Hell no. I would not touch this game with some one else's ten foot pole even if they were the one holding it if it had quick time events. If you've ever played Splinter Cell Conviction versus you'd know how much QTE PVP events blows goats.

I looked at both games unarmed fighting (thanks YouTube )

The problem i see with these two game fighting for the DayZ is.....You will have that one player running around and being all karate kid on everyone.

I agree there needs to be a normal fist fight but this mechanic we are talking about is if you are doing struggle- ie. grab the other player in close quarters.

It will be interesting how Rocket adds hand to hand combat

[DayZoey 110]

Wait so you want it to have close quarters struggle for youtube content? Go watch UFC on Youtube then if you want to watch two grown men flopping around on the ground like sweaty, greased up fish all over each other. There is just about nothing "DayZ" about having a quick time event script regardless of how much movement the two avatars make. I'm sorry for having come in and shot down your idea for DayZ but it is a first/third person survival game. I don't see anything wrong with the melee system as it is (aside from being unable to defend yourself with bare fists) and really only threw out the lock-on melee system as a way to contribute to the concept you had come up with that didn't turn the game in to Splinter Cell Double Agent multiplayer.

Maybe you like the little quick time events in first person shooters that string you along like a handicapped person being pulled on by a piece of twine attached to a hook through their nose but I do not. It would completely break immersion for me in game to be playing a survival game only to be ramped in to a Call of Duty/Battlefield 3 lame ass quick time event because I bumped in to someone running around mashing the "initiate" key.

I'm not sure if you've ever been in a fist fight before but let me enlighten you: Nothing aside from other people being in the way or being backed up against a wall stops you from running from one. The only reason for remaining in a fist fight is because you choose to be there (fight versus flight, fight winning out) or because someone is grabbing at your shirt or other garment of clothing, which wouldn't stop you if you had half a brain because you could just clock them in the face (they have no ability to dodge due to the fact that they're latched on to a part of you) or use other means to escape (headbutting their nose usually gets someone to let go).

So I reiterate: Quick time events in DayZ is terrible, should not be included because this isn't Battlefield 3 campaign mode and you should be more gracious of people rejecting what you feel is a gold nugget for an idea. This is the internet, get used to it champ. Not everything you crap out is going to be a priceless gem.

edit: spelling error, my bad

Edited December 15, 2012 by DayZoey

[colekern 1364]

Qte's? No. Why not have an actual fight that tales skill rather than button mashing? Why not have certain actions (punch, kick, etc...) assigned to certain keys instead?

Edited December 15, 2012 by colekern

[finkone 320]

Wait so you want it to have close quarters struggle for youtube content? Go watch UFC on Youtube then if you want to watch two grown men flopping around on the ground like sweaty, greased up fish all over each other. There is just about nothing "DayZ" about having a quick time event script regardless of how much movement the two avatars make. I'm sorry for having come in and shot down your idea for DayZ but it is a first/third person survival game. I don't see anything wrong with the melee system as it is (aside from being unable to defend yourself with bare fists) and really only threw out the lock-on melee system as a way to contribute to the concept you had come up with that didn't turn the game in to Splinter Cell Double Agent multiplayer.

Maybe you like the little quick time events in first person shooters that string you along like a handicapped person being pulled on by a piece of twine attached to a hook through their nose but I do not. It would completely break immersion for me in game to be playing a survival game only to be ramped in to a Call of Duty/Battlefield 3 lame ass quick time event because I bumped in to someone running around mashing the "initiate" key.

I'm not sure if you've ever been in a fist fight before but let me enlighten you: Nothing aside from other people being in the way or being backed up against a wall stops you from running from one. The only reason for remaining in a fist fight is because you choose to be there (fight versus flight, fight winning out) or because someone is grabbing at your shirt or other garment of clothing, which wouldn't stop you if you had half a brain because you could just clock them in the face (they have no ability to dodge due to the fact that they're latched on to a part of you) or use other means to escape (headbutting their nose usually gets someone to let go).

So I reiterate: Quick time events in DayZ is terrible, should not be included because this isn't Battlefield 3 campaign mode and you should be more gracious of people rejecting what you feel is a gold nugget for an idea. This is the internet, get used to it champ. Not everything you crap out is going to be a priceless gem.

edit: spelling error, my bad

Lmao - I love these types of reply's. The large text wall that explains very little and insults so very much. Very constructive guy we got here.

As for telling me to go watch sweaty guys fight... how is that contributing to my thread at all? Really man? Troll.

Anyways...

So you are telling me that if 2 guys are in a fight and they go down to the ground in a fight - at any time the other one can decide to just get up and run? Thats your fighting logic? That the other guy will just let this happen? So just because your little school yard scrap got broken up after the teacher made it over 15 seconds into the fight, doesn't mean you've experience the real deal. I'm sure you've never been in a real fight then... Try grabin' someone up after sprinting several blocks to grab them in kit (like in DayZ). I mght have. ;X I'd like to see you try to get away from me while wearing a ruck...

If they had a fighting system where players could move and punch and kick, and all that Dragon BallZ shit people would look retarded while fighting, if they had a system that locks people into a fight you'd disagree, because it would be considered a larger quick time. I can't see any logic in that - the only people that would use the fight system would be players looking to troll bambis in cherno. I'd love to see a 10 second script at which players are put against each other when caught off guard ( thus the thread title, STRUGGLE - NOT FIGHT SUGGESTED like some people seem to keep thinking) that could be both cinematic, and heart pumping because of the uncertain out-come that is dictated by the players involved.

You're welcome to your opinion of my idea and you stated it - ain't no reason for you to come back here man.

[DayZoey 110]

You're assuming that I have only gotten in to fights with schoolyard punks like you, your assumption could not be anymore incorrect.

So wait... I state my disagreement and my opinion plainly (in that I believe this is a terrible idea for DayZ and why) without sugar coating it, you decide to insult me on my opinion and suddenly when I return fire I'm a troll? Hah... hahahahah yeah...

I keep coming back here because it's entertaining to watch someone absolutely fail at reading comprehension and then insult me for not reading their post properly. Hello Kettle, this is my friend the Pot.

I have explained, for numerous reasons why I believe this is a terrible idea and because I think you're a big boy capable of going back a page when you're feeling less full of yourself that you can read them for yourself again. Other people have also stated why this is not a good idea (Ping/Lag and other such internet connection related issues that come with an opposed QTE) and you seem to have just ignored them.

So you're not here to have a discussion about your thread and ready to debate the merits of it, you're here to get internet butt pats from people who like being yanked from their game by some random button mashing contest quick time event that they had the rotten luck of being dragged in to by another player mashing the initiate key as they ran around a city. I certainly hope the continued internet butt pats you get makes your knob feel nice and big because those pills you buy online don't work, have a good day sir.

[Faggala 29]

I think all 4 methods should be more added or more than one so people can't just master the one technique and win everytime easy

[logan23 118]

I think all 4 methods should be more added or more than one so people can't just master the one technique and win everytime easy

I agree that there needs to be a way to not make it something a player can spam and win.

I mentioned above in my post about taking in the two player's

Water level

Food level

Stamina

Fresh spawn

Vet survivor

Sick or well

Injured- blood level

Broken bone was just set

By working with these factors, this will keep a player from spamming to win- in a struggle.

A lot of this will depend on what they can do with model to model interaction-sync up to have them make contact or be able to say push another player, etc.

Until we know the boundaries on what can be done in the animations and player to player sync up contact,..we can't answer this question.

[colekern 1364]

You're being kind of a jerk now. One one of your poll options is literally making fun of people who disagree with you. I'm not really sure why you would do that.

Edited December 16, 2012 by colekern