The dumbed down weapon damage system

[mitor 176]

People like the game to be realistic, but most of them don�t want a realistic weapon damage system. I�m obviously not going to mention the damage pistols and some weapons do...

Preface:

This is not the first time that something similar has happened to me, thinking Dayz has one single problem people doesn�t seem to worry about.

Today, playing alone, armed with a M4 CCO with 17 bullets, I encounter a bandit armed with a hatchet. After telling him not to move,(As I�m one of those rare heroes that don�t shoot unless you are almost dead) he started running towards me. I emptied the mag, hitting him at least three times. What happened after that is hilarious an ridiculous at the same time. He was bleeding, but he could run and kill me with his hatchet, and he was close to me. As I didn�t have any bullet left, I had also had to run. He chased me for about an endless minute until he fell of unconscious. Am I the only one who thinks this should not happen in game that is intended to encourage realism and survival?

The suggestion:

It is ridiculous that a single shot from any weapon doesn�t with a 99 percent of probability incapacitate you, at least temporarily. This is how I see it: (Considering that in standalone fire weapons are going to be rare.) Also consider what rocket has stated about a new medical and injuries system.

-You are shot on a leg, then you partially/totally fall depending on your speed when you were shot, and to the left if it was the left leg. Then, depending on the damage (I�m sure Rocket is going to make an awesome damage system.), then you walk/run slower or even very slowly if one of your legs is severely damaged. If both of your legs are severely damaged then you are forced to the prone position.

-If shot on the arm, then your weapon falls off and you are able pick it up and use it with your other hand(depending on the weight of the weapon). Obviously, if shot on both arms you are not able to use a weapon.(Maybe depending of the damage?)

-A shot to the upper body should(depending of the distance, bullet type and part of the upper body) make you fall back or at least incapacitate you for one or two seconds.

This post doesn't intend to focus on the medical system itself, but to increase the reality of the weapon damage system. I think that people who, like me, play Dayz and love Dayz for what it is, and for what it can be, doesn't want the weapon model to be dumbed down.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Mitor

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

I think the differences in weapons should mainly be the weight, manoeuvrability, ease(speed) of use and accurate range.

Different bullet damage doesn't make all that much sense in an "authentic" environment. Any hole through your chest, is still a hole through your chest.

Shotguns are a different story. But like all games, ArmA nerfed them to nearly useless.

While I do like your suggestion, I think the system should be rigged totally against your odds of survival.

It should be a LOT easier to die from being riddled with bullets. The solution should be, don't get shot.

Inclusion of your "crippling-limbs" would be awesome, but not being incapacitated and killed outright, should be rare.

[seddrik 44]

Without extensive coding I doubt such a detailed arrangement would be worked out.

There are differences in bullets tho. The 45 cal pistol for example, was designed to stop drugged VC soldiers who couldn't feel pain. Its a slower bullet that carries a lot of energy and THUMPS into a person throwing them back. It is thus really frustrating to have to empty a full mag into a body in game to kill anything with it.

But... there will always be cries for weaker weapons to give people a chance against being jumped and killed quickly. Just like the 50 cal... a lot of people hate it because they get sniped by it... one shot.

So what can you do? I personally liked weapons doing more damage also. Especially if they are gonna be more rare... Certainly more realistic than current damages. But then, dunno if Ill even be palying SA the way its seems to be going.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Seddrik

[liamcz@hotmail.com 98]

M4 is meant to maim, not kill.

Unless there's lead in your head, you're not dead (yes, that's meant to rhyme).

They won't be changing the damage system for something like a collapsed lung.

Edit: Also you can fall 'unconscious' from being shot anyway - there is some sort of incapacitated feature to getting shot :)

Edited November 28, 2012 by Rammfisch

[major.skrewup@gmail.com 177]

I think you missed most of your m4 shots, 1 pistol round into the enemies leg breaks it, and 3 stagnag to the chest will stop him charging, put him unconscious at the least, if you think you hit him 3/17 with a reflex sited weapon I'd say you where wrong and only got him once or twice. this seems like dodgy shooting on your part or you need a better weapon the battle rifles will knock the target unconscious in 1 hit or at least thats how I remember it,

Edited November 28, 2012 by Skrewy

[m.w. vindicator 880]

M4 is meant to maim, not kill.

Unless there's lead in your head, you're not dead (yes, that's meant to rhyme).

They won't be changing the damage system for something like a collapsed lung.

Edit: Also you can fall 'unconscious' from being shot anyway - there is some sort of incapacitated feature to getting shot :)

You mean 5.56x45 is meant to maim. Not M4, cause that is a gun.

I disagree though. 556x45 can be very deadly if it tumbles in the body. Why do you think the Russians switched to 5.45x39?

[liamcz@hotmail.com 98]

You mean 5.56x45 is meant to maim. Not M4, cause that is a gun.

I disagree though. 556x45 can be very deadly if it tumbles in the body. Why do you think the Russians switched to 5.45x39?

The M4 is a gun, yes. And the M4 shoots a 5.56, yes. I figured you'd be able to piece that together without telling me what specific round it shoots. I was just making a generalization

And any bullet can be deadly, however the 5.56 is MEANT to maim. I did not say that it maims every time, obviously. What do you think happens when I bullet tumbles inside a body? It maims the victim. Precisely my point. The bullet tumbles in order to maim.

And what does the 5.45 have anything to do with this? The only reason there was a cartridge change when developing the AK-74 is because the 5.45 is much more accurate & reliable. It has nothing to do with killing power.

I honestly have no idea why you brought that up.

[salty (DayZ) 39]

And what does the 5.45 have anything to do with this? The only reason there was a cartridge change when developing the AK-74 is because the 5.45 is much more accurate & reliable. It has nothing to do with killing power.

I honestly have no idea why you brought that up.

Because needless clarification and random fact dropping make him feel intelligent and well informed.

[liamcz@hotmail.com 98]

Because needless clarification and random fact dropping make him feel intelligent and well informed.

Most likely. Haha :P

[mitor 176]

I think you missed most of your m4 shots, 1 pistol round into the enemies leg breaks it, and 3 stagnag to the chest will stop him charging, put him unconscious at the least, if you think you hit him 3/17 with a reflex sited weapon I'd say you where wrong and only got him once or twice. this seems like dodgy shooting on your part or you need a better weapon the battle rifles will knock the target unconscious in 1 hit or at least thats how I remember it,

You remember terribly wrong. I don't know the exact amount, but three or four M4 bullet(to the chest) don 't kill neither incapacitate the player.

[liamcz@hotmail.com 98]

I believe they do 3555 damage per shot (12000+ for head).

That's 4 shots to kill.

(And if anyone corrects me and says "no, it's actually 3.4 shots", I will literally scream. You CANNOT shoot someone 0.4 times).

Edited November 29, 2012 by Rammfisch

[m.w. vindicator 880]

The M4 is a gun, yes. And the M4 shoots a 5.56, yes. I figured you'd be able to piece that together without telling me what specific round it shoots. I was just making a generalization

And any bullet can be deadly, however the 5.56 is MEANT to maim. I did not say that it maims every time, obviously. What do you think happens when I bullet tumbles inside a body? It maims the victim. Precisely my point. The bullet tumbles in order to maim.

And what does the 5.45 have anything to do with this? The only reason there was a cartridge change when developing the AK-74 is because the 5.45 is much more accurate & reliable. It has nothing to do with killing power.

I honestly have no idea why you brought that up.

No need to be offended, sheesh. It was a light-hearted comment. I am not a ballistics expert and what I stated was just stuff that I have read. This argument has started huge flame wars on gun websites and in the real world. No need to continue the argument.

The lethality of 5.56x45 is debatable.

As for 5.45x39, I have heard on several factual shows that the Russians changed to the ammunition due to what they saw in vietnam with 5.56x45. But once again, arguing is pointless, so lets stop.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Because needless clarification and random fact dropping make him feel intelligent and well informed.

Okay bud. I was just having some fun. Get off your high horse

[liamcz@hotmail.com 98]

No need to be offended, sheesh. It was a light-hearted comment. I am not a ballistics expert and what I stated was just stuff that I have read. This argument has started huge flame wars on gun websites and in the real world. No need to continue the argument.

The lethality of 5.56x45 is debatable.

As for 5.45x39, I have heard on several factual shows that the Russians changed to the ammunition due to what they saw in vietnam with 5.56x45. But once again, arguing is pointless, so lets stop.

You sir, are my idol. If only I could stop being a dick and refrain from arguing :P

Haha, sorry mate :)

[enforcer1975 1111]

And any bullet can be deadly, however the 5.56 is MEANT to maim. I did not say that it maims every time, obviously. What do you think happens when I bullet tumbles inside a body? It maims the victim. Precisely my point. The bullet tumbles in order to maim.

And what does the 5.45 have anything to do with this? The only reason there was a cartridge change when developing the AK-74 is because the 5.45 is much more accurate & reliable. It has nothing to do with killing power.

They found out later that it was better to use the smaller bullet because a wounded soldier used up more of the enemies ressources, i don't think the bullet was designed with that in mind....

It was developed so soldiers could carry more ammo, like the russians did later, too. If you state facts please research a bit better.

[liamcz@hotmail.com 98]

They found out later that it was better to use the smaller bullet because a wounded soldier used up more of the enemies ressources, i don't think the bullet was designed with that in mind....

It was developed so soldiers could carry more ammo, like the russians did later, too. If you state facts please research a bit better.

Are you serious? Have you seen the size & weight difference between the two AK rounds? Use some common sense. The difference between a 5.56 and a 7.62x51, maybe then you've got yourself a difference. 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 is very minimal. They are simply more accurate and more reliable. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

If you want to drop the enemy, use a .308. If you want to maim the son of a bitch, go with a .223

Edited November 29, 2012 by Rammfisch

[liamcz@hotmail.com 98]

Also, I understand that the entire reason to maim the victim is to use up the enemy resources. That, however, did not need stating. I understand that it was later discovered that the projectile did a damn good job at wounding the enemy, and that's my point exactly. They continue using it to this day for that exact purpose. Your post is completely meaningless.

[rocu 24]

Completely agree with almost everything you suggested here. But not particulary for the axe moment you had there. Almost every time when 2 enemies meet up close they start putting bullets into eachother and they will both die, doesn't matter who hit the first bullet or even if the other guy started shooting 3 seconds later. This might also have to do with desync, but I think this addition would help aswell.

You can have my beans.

[Trizzo 632]

Tumbling bullets? "Maiming" not killing? Sigh...

"

It is ridiculous that a single shot from any weapon doesn�t with a 99 percent of probability incapacitate you, at least temporarily" No it isn't. Unless a bullet kills outright/hits spine/vitals that will kill quickly I've not often seen a animal (or somebody) "pass out". Adrenaline immediately kicks in and the victim goes berserk. Even people who have been hit in vital areas, who are pretty much dead, can carry on for many seconds. Why stopping power is such a concern.

I've never seen it in an animal (nor a human) shot->wounded simply pass out. Can it happens of course but 99% of the time no way. Depends on where you are hit as all well. I would seriously consider not playing the game if 99% of bullets KOed me.

Things that need changing.

* Less slugs more and pellets for shotguns. WTF is with the slugs over pellets. It makes no sense. SHOTgun, is meant to fire SHOT lots of fucking SHOT not slugs...

* Weapons handeling needs an overhaul. Such as offhand firing of .50cal sniper rifles and even larger rifles. It does not happen.

* Pistols should have a buff at close range but not long (the game needs some balancing)

* Agree on most other points

ps- I like the bandit example. He was hit but so adreneline charged he chased but only after he saw a trail of blood he realised he was actually dead and then he died.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Trizzo

[BSB Jimmy 360]

i think the guns are fine but the shotguns suck i shot a bandit from 2m away, with a db, and he didnt die.

[mitor 176]

Tumbling bullets? "Maiming" not killing? Sigh...

"

It is ridiculous that a single shot from any weapon doesn�t with a 99 percent of probability incapacitate you, at least temporarily" No it isn't. Unless a bullet kills outright/hits spine/vitals that will kill quickly I've not often seen a animal (or somebody) "pass out". Adrenaline immediately kicks in and the victim goes berserk. Even people who have been hit in vital areas, who are pretty much dead, can carry on for many seconds. Why stopping power is such a concern.

I've never seen it in an animal (nor a human) shot->wounded simply pass out. Can it happens of course but 99% of the time no way. Depends on where you are hit as all well. I would seriously consider not playing the game if 99% of bullets KOed me.

Things that need changing.

* Less slugs more and pellets for shotguns. WTF is with the slugs over pellets. It makes no sense. SHOTgun, is meant to fire SHOT lots of fucking SHOT not slugs...

* Weapons handeling needs an overhaul. Such as offhand firing of .50cal sniper rifles and even larger rifles. It does not happen.

* Pistols should have a buff at close range but not long (the game needs some balancing)

* Agree on most other points

ps- I like the bandit example. He was hit but so adreneline charged he chased but only after he saw a trail of blood he realised he was actually dead and then he died.

You can have my beans. I´m not really an expert in this area. Your explanations seem to be solid. But anyway I think weapons should have more realism, I have never been shot, but the pain of three bullets should not allow you to run...I think.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Mitor

[Lights Out 141]

It is ridiculous that a single shot from any weapon doesn�t with a 99 percent of probability incapacitate you, at least temporarily. This is how I see it: (Considering that in standalone fire weapons are going to be rare.) Also consider what rocket has stated about a new medical and injuries system.

A single shot from ANY weapon? Depending on the gun and the caliber, I would argue if every single weapon incapacitated you with a single shot. Partly due to adrenaline, people have been shot and have not even been aware of it. Depending on the placement of the shot, people with higher pain thresholds can go on relatively unbothered until blood loss becomes an issue.

Different guns should react differently based on the gun shot wounds they cause but different guns shouldn't exactly "deal more direct damage". I'd definitely like to see different guns/calibers have an effect on the rate of your blood loss or how quickly you can get the bleeding to stop. I think where guns should really differentiate is when they are used in different situations. Accuracy at a distance, fire rate in close quarters, etc. etc. Not so much the damage they deal but the situations a gun may be more useful in.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Frankly, localised shots should have some kind of effect:

• If i shoot you in the leg, you should fall to the ground.
  
• If i shoot your arms you should drop whatever you had in your hands.
  

I'm ok with the game not having "realistic" bullet damages, it's a game after all, it has to be "interesting", guns in the real world are not designed to be "interesting", they are designed to be efficient and letal.

[carpediembr 10]

Frankly, localised shots should have some kind of effect:

• If i shoot you in the leg, you should fall to the ground.
  
• If i shoot your arms you should drop whatever you had in your hands.
  

That is not realistic, I have a friend that is a policeman, got shot by a glock18 on the tight, and only noticed when he got back to the station, sat down and realized something was "wet". Unless the bullet gets an artery or an organ, you wont fall or die straight away.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Nice story but unless your policeman friend got only grazed, or do drugs, i don't really see it happening. And i haven't said "die", since players are such bullet sponges at the moment, a few localised effects wouldn't hurt.