Remove all the thermal stuff (solved)

[Drakan 62]

Hi guys

before reading this post, I would like you to take a deep breath and .. keep cool.

Some very interesting ideas and suggestions may come out from your constructive answers.

First let's embody this question:

Given the fact that Dayz game is about playing survival and strategy against other players by hiding, crouching and running for survival. Don't you think that these thermal devices play against this feature of the game?

I have nothing to say about NVG since you still can hide from it; An experienced and skilled player would go prone and wait untill the right moment to make his move.

But where is the sense for playing as a sniper if the forest, bushes and ghillies don't protect you anymore ?

I know that thermal L85 and the other.. are suposed to be rare, almost like in reality. Real life quality thermal devices are seen on heavy vehicules or equipment in big platoons. Usually they cary two or three of these for an entire garnison of 20 to 100 mens.

But what I see in Dayz is that, each time you connect to a server with more than 5 players, you can see someone carrying the Thermal device.

I don't think that in a post apocalyptic terran, survivors would carry such weapon on a 1/5 or 1/6 ratio (the statement about joining servers with more than 5 player...).

Moreover if you look closer to what is sniping in Dayz, you will notice that "snipers" consist usually in squads of 2 to 5 mens carrying L85"s ; 50 cal rifles and who use to hop from server to server in order to kill the spawning or any other zoomed or non-zoomed targets.

here again, you can avoid it, but after some hours of playing, I came up with the certainity that 50% of these "snipers" use a Hacks.

Now we come on the major issue.

Thermal is good, but due to the difficulty of the game and some particularities (duplication etc..)

It is too present in the Dayz survival strategy.

In every games there are players who only play if they have this kind of titanic advantage.

I guess that lots of these players use the thermal device + hack + team + hoping.

You now have the explosive recipe.

The solution would be to make a try by entirely deleting this weapon from loot and to consider it as a cheated item.

There are lots of things and different strategies which would arise from this removal. Lots of things to win.

here are some examples:

- Snipers could play stealth, as well as other players who could enter cities silently

- Forest could be deadly and compose in a real hostile environment.(and not the current "close my eyes and hope that there is no player with L85 who spawned before")

- Squad players could finaly assault and take over snipers.

- organized squads could hold a whole city.

- If you shoot, you're compromised, if you don't you can be safe.

- squads would use Binoculars and not only the TWS scope

- You can finnaly Hide somewhere else than in a building !

And of course, it would trigger a bigger use of normal sniper rifles. They are so exciting to use

Who doesn't enjoy the sound of a DMR or a SVD when it was shot from far far far up in the hills ?:

I hope that these elements could bring you on any possible Idea.

I am maybe the only one to have such a point of view.. I will still share the opinions with pleasure.

Sorry for my english, I'm french.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Drakan

[Bludy 324]

there was the season of topics against nvg and thermals some months ago...they are OP but the augmented number of them is because the duping,farming,hacking are main issues of the mod. in any case, if you play at night and you don't have those devices it's normal to suffer if you meet someone who has nvgs or a l85..and this would happen also in real life situations..

now think about the chernarus situation: there is an infection and the number of people decreased dramatically...there are some military bases around..you are out there, what do you do? you go there, and this is exactly how we play. so if we imagine that nwa for example would have had a personnel of i don't know..we say a company, so 150 people with a rifle we say..there would be at least 4-5 l85 and even more nvgs since nowadays they are standard infantry equipment...and with an active population of 25 to 75 (server slots..) your 1 in 5 l85 and an higher nvg rate is realistic.

[maxnmike 134]

There are also people that use the L85 to avoid other people rather than kill them and just kill zombies.

[Mikewhiskey (DayZ) 27]

there was the season of topics against nvg and thermals some months ago...they are OP but the augmented number of them is because the duping,farming,hacking are main issues of the mod. in any case, if you play at night and you don't have those devices it's normal to suffer if you meet someone who has nvgs or a l85..and this would happen also in real life situations..

now think about the chernarus situation: there is an infection and the number of people decreased dramatically...there are some military bases around..you are out there, what do you do? you go there, and this is exactly how we play. so if we imagine that nwa for example would have had a personnel of i don't know..we say a company, so 150 people with a rifle we say..there would be at least 4-5 l85 and even more nvgs since nowadays they are standard infantry equipment...and with an active population of 25 to 75 (server slots..) your 1 in 5 l85 and an higher nvg rate is realistic.

You want to talk real life? Good luck walking around with a thermal camera on a rifle. You ever tried that? It sucks and its not practical. Anyone who would put a thermal camera on a rifle its retarded. Thermals have no place on any weapon system except mounted MG's, if we are talking about direct fire weapon systems and line company equipment. Plus Thermal cameras are loud in real life. If you ever grew up in the 80s you remember the vhs tape camcorders. They make the high pitched tape noise and fan noise. Yea they are like that x10. So impractical for this type of stuff.

You say its standard for infantry equipment? Uhhh maybe in your country. You know how much one of them cost? Where would you put it? How would you go on patrol with a thermal camera? I mean I just do not see how you could effectively employ a thermal camera on patrol period. I think your blowing smoke bro.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Mikewhiskey

[chakijz 174]

You want to talk real life? Good luck walking around with a thermal camera on a rifle. You ever tried that? It sucks and its not practical. Anyone who would put a thermal camera on a rifle its retarded. Thermals have no place on any weapon system except mounted MG's, if we are talking about direct fire weapon systems and line company equipment. Plus Thermal cameras are loud in real life. If you ever grew up in the 80s you remember the vhs tape camcorders. They make the high pitched tape noise and fan noise. Yea they are like that x10. So impractical for this type of stuff.

You say its standard for infantry equipment? Uhhh maybe in your country. You know how much one of them cost? Where would you put it? How would you go on patrol with a thermal camera? I mean I just do not see how you could effectively employ a thermal camera on patrol period. I think your blowing smoke bro.

I think he said that the NVGs are standart infantry equipment, not the thermals.

Anyway, on topic - i'd rather have helicopters removed, not the L85s or NVGs, since every server has 3-4 helis now, that's bullshit. There's no point ir camps anymore, they just all get raided in a day or two.

[Mikewhiskey (DayZ) 27]

Just to back up what the OP is saying, L85 with a thermal on top, I dont think people understand how big these cameras are, they are huge. It would probably take the whole rail system of the L85 to be able to put it on, Can you imagine how awkward that would be trying to position your head into the peep of the camera while you figure how to position your rifle in the high pocket of your shoulder? It would be stupid and your shots would be completely inaccurate.

On another note since some people like to talk about realism. Dudes running around with AS50s. Dudes "running" around with AS50s. That is ridiculous, but hey, its in every video game for some reason. Anyone who has ever fired one of these weapons knows that uhhhh your not going to pick this thing up and run with it. Why? Because its heavy as ^&^%. Do you honestly think snipers carry this thing around all day long? Well answer is no. They break it up into 3 pieces, barrel, reciever, bipod. bipod goes into the alice pack or mollie pack, reciver goes into the pack and barrel goes between the pack and the back of the flak jacket. He will be carrying an M4 as primary until he and his "team" no more then 4 reach their hides. M4A1 and or 30 Aut 6 is a 10x better choice of weapon for taking personel out. If we are talking realism. But hey, i like video games too.

[spankerfist 44]

Just to back up what the OP is saying, L85 with a thermal on top, I dont think people understand how big these cameras are, they are huge. It would probably take the whole rail system of the L85 to be able to put it on, Can you imagine how awkward that would be trying to position your head into the peep of the camera while you figure how to position your rifle in the high pocket of your shoulder? It would be stupid and your shots would be completely inaccurate.

On another note since some people like to talk about realism. Dudes running around with AS50s. Dudes "running" around with AS50s. That is ridiculous, but hey, its in every video game for some reason. Anyone who has ever fired one of these weapons knows that uhhhh your not going to pick this thing up and run with it. Why? Because its heavy as ^&^%. Do you honestly think snipers carry this thing around all day long? Well answer is no. They break it up into 3 pieces, barrel, reciever, bipod. bipod goes into the alice pack or mollie pack, reciver goes into the pack and barrel goes between the pack and the back of the flak jacket. He will be carrying an M4 as primary until he and his "team" no more then 4 reach their hides. M4A1 and or 30 Aut 6 is a 10x better choice of weapon for taking personel out. If we are talking realism. But hey, i like video games too.

as stated here thermal is big and shitty to run around with also its not a normal attachment to have. Gave you beans^.

I would love if thermal got removed its too op.

Edited November 20, 2012 by SnakeDoctor

[enforcer1975 1111]

- Snipers could play stealth, as well as other players who could enter cities silently

You can't enter a town silently because the presence of zombies shows a player is about 200m around the location.

[Drakan 62]

You want to talk real life? Good luck walking around with a thermal camera on a rifle. You ever tried that? It sucks and its not practical. Anyone who would put a thermal camera on a rifle its retarded. Thermals have no place on any weapon system except mounted MG's, if we are talking about direct fire weapon systems and line company equipment. Plus Thermal cameras are loud in real life. If you ever grew up in the 80s you remember the vhs tape camcorders. They make the high pitched tape noise and fan noise. Yea they are like that x10. So impractical for this type of stuff.

+ 999999

It is strange , but I feel the same in Dayz; its not comfortable to use.

But because the guys who are sniping you may have it; you will have to use it as well...

I don't know if you guys already did countersniping with one of these but

staring at a red screen during one to three hours is not fun. It ruins the estethics

Anyway keep cool

Edited November 20, 2012 by Drakan

[Rastamaus 323]

i agree with OP, thermals are just stupidly over powered and the game would be better if they were excluded.

[Bludy 324]

Good luck walking around with a thermal camera on a rifle.

You ever tried that?

You say its standard for infantry equipment? Uhhh maybe in your country.

You know how much one of them cost?

I think your blowing smoke bro.

you are totally right, also about running with an as50

no

i don't know thermal but nvgs for sure are standard equipment

no

if this means i'm doing drugs i have to say..no

it's clear you know what are you talking about, but my real life point was more about wounds and there i know what i'm talking about too.

then i wrote that thermals are op i think..so we are almost on the same side..

[dekartz 315]

http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-weaponsight-thor-320-3x-60hz So big. So clunky. How could you ever carry this around?

[Mikewhiskey (DayZ) 27]

http://www.atncorp.c...hor-320-3x-60hz So big. So clunky. How could you ever carry this around?

That is the smallest thermal camera for a rifle I have ever seen I love that price tag. I wonder if its realistic to walk through the wilderness and just find $8000 set of Thermals laying around. Now that may work no problem, that camera looks pretty sharp but take into consideration my points I have already said about cameras and also apply that if that camera gets damaged then what? Are you going to yank your camera off your rifle the middle of a firefight and put your iron sights on? Assuming you have iron sights on your body and its actually BZOed. People get into the mind set of 12 power scopes on medium range direct fire weapons and then they get damaged by shrapnel or debris and then they have no iron sights or anything to replace it with...how do you fire? Look down the side of the barrel, yea that works in CQB but thats about it. Also if you have ever taken fire while looking through a Thermal camera you will notice that the muzzle flash from your opposition nearly blacks your screen out when they fire, you lose field of view.

Dekartz if you had a clone of yourself and you were in Cheranarus...lol yea i said that and you basically had a 1v1 fight to the death, you will kill your clone who had a thermal on his weapon. If i Just as so much as suppress my target with sustatined fire he will not be able to aquire me with a thermal because of the blackout. You see how outrageous you can see people with the thermal in this game...yea totally not like that irl. You have to sit there and fine tune that camera for the best picture resolution, fade, gamma, all that nonsense everytime your target is at a different range. And you think you can shoot effectivley with a blurry screen and horrible eye relief? Hope that make sense.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Mikewhiskey

[Bludy 324]

i have to say that the ingame camera is more infra-red than thermal..thermal has more colors and a scale i think..

[nikiller 122]

hi,

I like the thermal scope but I agree that it has no place in post apocalyptic world like DayZ. I'm not a weapon expert but I guess this kind of equipment is rare, very expensive and maintenance is made by qualified personal. Moreover, I believe those scopes need batteries, a lot of batteries in order to work.

You see a lot of players with L85 because of duping. Once it will be fixed those guns should be rarer.

Maybe not remove thermal from the game but make them more binding use. With batteries and maintenance.

cya.

Nikiller.

[Mikewhiskey (DayZ) 27]

you are totally right, also about running with an as50

no

i don't know thermal but nvgs for sure are standard equipment

no

if this means i'm doing drugs i have to say..no

it's clear you know what are you talking about, but my real life point was more about wounds and there i know what i'm talking about too.

then i wrote that thermals are op i think..so we are almost on the same side..

I mis read

[Mikewhiskey (DayZ) 27]

Nikiller. They have some thermal cameras out there that are very high speed low drag, but the ones that I used in the Marine Corp and and the ones that my brother in law is using right now as we speak 5 ft next to me takes massive amounts of batteries. Its highspeed but it aint low drag.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Mikewhiskey

[Inception. 9443]

Hasn't this been discussed before?

[dekartz 315]

Maybe not remove thermal from the game but make them more binding use. With batteries and maintenance.

cya.

Nikiller.

This. A lot of this.

[intelligenttrees 45]

I don't think thermal should be removed, necessarily, but it shouldn't be on weapons. Maybe incorperate it into a rarer binoculars. Or, if they must have a thermal weapon, at least give a defense for it. Like something to hid the heat signature a bit.

[wolfstriked 143]

I think removal from infantry weapons is smart but keep them around and rare for heavy 50 caliber machines guns for nightime base protection...if we ever get bases.

[thales2010@live.com.au 6]

Hi guys

before reading this post, I would like you to take a deep breath and .. keep cool.

Some very interesting ideas and suggestions may come out from your constructive answers.

First let's embody this question:

Given the fact that Dayz game is about playing survival and strategy against other players by hiding, crouching and running for survival. Don't you think that these thermal devices play against this feature of the game?

I have nothing to say about NVG since you still can hide from it; An experienced and skilled player would go prone and wait untill the right moment to make his move.

But where is the sense for playing as a sniper if the forest, bushes and ghillies don't protect you anymore ?

I know that thermal L85 and the other.. are suposed to be rare, almost like in reality. Real life quality thermal devices are seen on heavy vehicules or equipment in big platoons. Usually they cary two or three of these for an entire garnison of 20 to 100 mens.

But what I see in Dayz is that, each time you connect to a server with more than 5 players, you can see someone carrying the Thermal device.

I don't think that in a post apocalyptic terran, survivors would carry such weapon on a 1/5 or 1/6 ratio (the statement about joining servers with more than 5 player...).

Moreover if you look closer to what is sniping in Dayz, you will notice that "snipers" consist usually in squads of 2 to 5 mens carrying L85"s ; 50 cal rifles and who use to hop from server to server in order to kill the spawning or any other zoomed or non-zoomed targets.

here again, you can avoid it, but after some hours of playing, I came up with the certainity that 50% of these "snipers" use a Hacks.

Now we come on the major issue.

Thermal is good, but due to the difficulty of the game and some particularities (duplication etc..)

It is too present in the Dayz survival strategy.

In every games there are players who only play if they have this kind of titanic advantage.

I guess that lots of these players use the thermal device + hack + team + hoping.

You now have the explosive recipe.

The solution would be to make a try by entirely deleting this weapon from loot and to consider it as a cheated item.

There are lots of things and different strategies which would arise from this removal. Lots of things to win.

here are some examples:

- Snipers could play stealth, as well as other players who could enter cities silently

- Forest could be deadly and compose in a real hostile environment.(and not the current "close my eyes and hope that there is no player with L85 who spawned before")

- Squad players could finaly assault and take over snipers.

- organized squads could hold a whole city.

- If you shoot, you're compromised, if you don't you can be safe.

- squads would use Binoculars and not only the TWS scope

- You can finnaly Hide somewhere else than in a building !

And of course, it would trigger a bigger use of normal sniper rifles. They are so exciting to use

Who doesn't enjoy the sound of a DMR or a SVD when it was shot from far far far up in the hills ?:

I hope that these elements could bring you on any possible Idea.

I am maybe the only one to have such a point of view.. I will still share the opinions with pleasure.

Sorry for my english, I'm french.

keep it they are hard to get not to mention they are only truly effective to 500m and as for them "not belonging" the heli crashes are british spec ops i think the equipment they are using under the circumstances of a zombie outbreak might warrant thermal weapons.

[Drakan 62]

I think removal from infantry weapons is smart but keep them around and rare for heavy 50 caliber machines guns for nightime base protection...if we ever get bases.

I don't know if this feature is available in Arma 2 OA/CO

I guess you're talking about something mounted on a tripod or a vehicule, like the ones used in army (French army for example).

It's a sort of pickup truck with a mounted Thermal camera on the back, it is used for inland recognition on airfields and other wide open military spaces.

These pickups use to drive everyday among a whole area and take some stops so the aimer can scan static and in movement.

It is very hard, almost impossible to avoid. but it patrols only twice, three or four times a day. (these same guys are trained for enemy reconaissance, they are also the guys who will infiltrate the enemy or ally bases on exercise ; they use to dig special trenches for this duty)

keep it they are hard to get not to mention they are only truly effective to 500m and as for them "not belonging" the heli crashes are british spec ops i think the equipment they are using under the circumstances of a zombie outbreak might warrant thermal weapons.

The problem is more about the impact it has on game strategy and survival. You see effective up to 500 but it's far enough in order that you can scan around and see a hord of zombies in one of the surounding villages.

But here is an example of an inapropriate use of the gun:

Drakan is in the middle of a field, in a bush, wearing ghillie with camouflage SVD next to Elektro's train station , a place where there are a lots of bushes and palissades.

He could normally stay in this position during an hour or even more as soon as he doesn't fire or makes the right firing.

(I always play on veteran servers)

But guess how long can I stay like this without being shot. On a .. for example... 20 people server.

the answer is... fifteen minutes untill a thermal hopper / sniper comes joins in or comes in.

You will answer me "yeah but this is because of duplication" ; I can tell you that the fact of ten guys or one guy using it on a server is the same thing.

It will have the same impact on the "stealth" possibilites of the game.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Drakan

[Faceman Peck 93]

Just to back up what the OP is saying, L85 with a thermal on top, I dont think people understand how big these cameras are, they are huge. It would probably take the whole rail system of the L85 to be able to put it on, Can you imagine how awkward that would be trying to position your head into the peep of the camera while you figure how to position your rifle in the high pocket of your shoulder? It would be stupid and your shots would be completely inaccurate.

On another note since some people like to talk about realism. Dudes running around with AS50s. Dudes "running" around with AS50s. That is ridiculous, but hey, its in every video game for some reason. Anyone who has ever fired one of these weapons knows that uhhhh your not going to pick this thing up and run with it. Why? Because its heavy as ^&^%. Do you honestly think snipers carry this thing around all day long? Well answer is no. They break it up into 3 pieces, barrel, reciever, bipod. bipod goes into the alice pack or mollie pack, reciver goes into the pack and barrel goes between the pack and the back of the flak jacket. He will be carrying an M4 as primary until he and his "team" no more then 4 reach their hides. M4A1 and or 30 Aut 6 is a 10x better choice of weapon for taking personel out. If we are talking realism. But hey, i like video games too.

I love this guy! And since we aren't playing a milisim, we are playing a mod based off one....I like the unrealistic as50 and thermals...realism kind of goes out the window when you start talking about zombies

[Bludy 324]

you are right, but making the char walk with the as50 in hands or not being able to move while scoping with a thermal weapon wouldn't break anything..