Solution for Excessive Murder

[V4ReVolution 3]

BIT OF A WALL - BUT INTERESTING CONCEPT

Solution for Excessive Murder - Unbiased Consequences for actions

This is not a bitch post about bandits, murderers ruining my game. I believe, like many others, that once you've learnt the basics of the game, bandits/ killers/ Confrontations and stand-offs with other players present possibly the greatest thrill in the game.

However I am strongly in favour of realism and I believe that the level of aggression and senseless PvP killings is massively unrealistic.

Of course, we can only speculate how we would behave in an actual zombie apocalypse when encountering strangers, but I think we can all agree that in general when we encounter strangers;

We would be much more alert, paranoid, suspicious, distrusting and yes, when it came down to it, we would rather kill them than be killed by them.

However, I wholeheartedly disagree that this would turn 90% of survivors into serial killers without remorse. The reason is, most people would still have a moral sense that killing is wrong and would actively seek ways not to kill someone until they absolutely had to. Of course, the socio paths of society would have a field day in a zombie apocalypse and probably dream of once frequently, but for the rest of us, it's an escapist fantasy, it would be a waking nightmare if it were a reality for us.

So to summarise, the senseless killing in Dayz is massively unrealistic based on my own speculations which I believe are reasonably accurate.

The bottom line is in a game where player deaths feature, even deaths such as in Dayz where you lose everything. It is still not a great loss to die and therefore killing without a second thought in Dayz does not trigger strong emotions or reactions of "I am about to do something really bad, what consequences might there be?"

There is no and never will be REAL sense of danger or loss in a game. But, we can simulate it to an extent.

My solution. For every PvP kill any player makes, self defence, senseless shooting, robbery, betrayal results in punishment, punishment that affects survivors equally as it does bandits. The punishment is, 5 minutes unable to move or do anything after next logging in for every kill.

This would put them in danger of being found defenceless and would also be highly annoying. Think of it kinda like karma, or a killer answering to god. Whatever you think of it as, the practical reason for it is to make killings less random murder, and more for legitimate reasons. most players would not want to kill the first, second and third person they see just because they can. Instead they may avoid the first, he's not a threat, have a Mexican stand-off with the second, but agree to go their separate ways, and slaughter the third since he stupidly opened fire and missed.

Does this just affect bandits? Yes bandits like killing, but would they be so keen to have 10 murders if it meant that next time they log in they have nearly one hour to wait before they can actually play.

Does it affect survivors? sure, survivors kill too, usually in self defence though.

The point of this suggestion, which I am sure will be met with strong negative reactions from Mr Billy Bob Bean Bandit and his DMR. Is not to punish one particular style of play, not to punish anyone for that matter, but for there to be a powerful driving reason not to kill everyone you see, but to plan your murders more carefully. Kill by all means, but even a psychopath in real life would consider the consequences of his actions, a psychopath in real life would carefully select his victim. Choosing to proceed whether the reward for killing is greater than the consequence for killing.

Risk vs Reward, essence of Dayz survival I think.

The one thing a sniper in the hills far away does not have when selecting his next victim is much risk. With this, he may think twice about his actions and ask himself "shall I let this one go and wait for a better target"

Some players, regardless of the risk, will continue to kill endlessly because that's what they enjoy, the average player I believe, would curb their enthusiasm about killing everything with a gun in it's hands.

I don't know if this is possible, but as a concept for addressing the issue I believe it's worthy of consideration, although the specifics may need to be tweaked to find the sweet spot. Another variation could be that one murder could be equal to the same time constraint as 100 murders. Each kill giving you a random time constraint, maybe two minutes, maybe 20 minutes, you'll never know until you log back in.

Should the constraint be in place for every log thereafter for the duration of that characters life? I don't think so, one punishment per kill. But maybe, I'm not sure exactly as to the specifics, but the concept is a good one.

I think it's realistic to be startled and open fire in close quarters. I think it's realistic to kill when you perceive a threat to yourself. I think it's realistic to kill for robbery (to an extent). I don't think it's realistic to be shot from the other side of town by a guy who just likes to f*ck your day up and has no intention of entering the town. Those types of killings should be the rarest of all.

So you like killing and robbing? Fine, carry on, you'll be punished in the same way that those of us who avoid killing and robbing are. A pre determined amount of time for each persons blood on your hands. You have upwards of 10, others have an average of 2 or less.

[Techercizer 82]

If this was added in, even the most generous survivor would wind up facing 2+hour wait times after any decent period of playing. Nobody is going to play a game with that kind of built in wait. They'll just leave until it's removed.

[Ejaculacid 19]

Idiotic idea.. Murders will happen in any type of world wide apocalypse, its just one more mouth to feed & for it to be a stranger who cares?

I wouldnt.

[V4ReVolution 3]

Idiotic idea.. Murders will happen in any type of world wide apocalypse, its just one more mouth to feed & for it to be a stranger who cares?

And so you would shoot a guy from 1km away and then leave to wander back off into the woods?

That's a realistic survival strategy?

[RonnieG 0]

Idiotic idea.. Murders will happen in any type of world wide apocalypse' date=' its just one more mouth to feed & for it to be a stranger who cares? [/quote']

And so you would shoot a guy from 1km away and then leave to wander back off into the woods?

That's a realistic survival strategy?

Well, no. That's the Sociopath side of things. But, there's nothing realistic about murdering someone and then standing in place for 5 minutes unable to move. I'd rather they introduced a behind the scenes sanity meter based on your murders that made you start seeing and hearing things that aren't there and make noise even when you were trying not to. The meter slowly drains over time but, only when logged on. So you can kill in self-defense without having to worry too much or you can go on a murderous spree and slowly lose yourself.

Edit: I would also like to add that the sanity meter does reset upon death.

[Da_Reapa1 4]

Idiotic idea.. Murders will happen in any type of world wide apocalypse' date=' its just one more mouth to feed & for it to be a stranger who cares? [/quote']

And so you would shoot a guy from 1km away and then leave to wander back off into the woods?

That's a realistic survival strategy?

Well, no. That's the Sociopath side of things. But, there's nothing realistic about murdering someone and then standing in place for 5 minutes unable to move. I'd rather they introduced a behind the scenes sanity meter based on your murders that made you start seeing and hearing things that aren't there and make noise even when you were trying not to. The meter slowly drains over time but, only when logged on. So you can kill in self-defense without having to worry too much or you can go on a murderous spree and slowly lose yourself.

Edit: I would also like to add that the sanity meter does reset upon death.

make a full post of this idea, that is just brilliant.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Idiotic idea.. Murders will happen in any type of world wide apocalypse' date=' its just one more mouth to feed & for it to be a stranger who cares? [/quote']

And so you would shoot a guy from 1km away and then leave to wander back off into the woods?

That's a realistic survival strategy?

Well, no. That's the Sociopath side of things. But, there's nothing realistic about murdering someone and then standing in place for 5 minutes unable to move. I'd rather they introduced a behind the scenes sanity meter based on your murders that made you start seeing and hearing things that aren't there and make noise even when you were trying not to. The meter slowly drains over time but, only when logged on. So you can kill in self-defense without having to worry too much or you can go on a murderous spree and slowly lose yourself.

Edit: I would also like to add that the sanity meter does reset upon death.

make a full post of this idea, that is just brilliant.

This kind of stuff have been proposed countless times. It's just a way to tell you how to play, don't get me wrong I hate excessive murder and general KoS, just I don't want that kind of 'fix'.

_____________

My proposal about selective FF. The only method that allows everybody to play like they want, including cooperation, trading, betrayal and PvP of course.

[V4ReVolution 3]

That's actually a great alternative. So the effects of the "insanity" are increased with every additional kill? I would suggest that it is only reduced after time and only reset after it has returned to 0. This prevents disconnect and reconnect abuses.

As for the effects of the insanity itself. I suggest that they seem real to those suffering from it. For example s player can hallucinate any or all of these effects;

Glimpses of fake players, hiding, dashing, aiming ay them.

Gunshots at various percieved distances. Aggro and non aggro zombie noises nearby, glimpses of non existent zombies. I hear that many killers suffer from waking nightmares. A way to reproduce this in game could be to have horrifying blood soaked faces flash up on screen randomly for a split second covering most of the game area.

The effect of hallucinations of players and zombies might not be that great when they are in the wilderness, players would be safe assuming that sighted zombies and players would likely only be hallucinations and therefore harmless.

These hallucinations compromise their safety when in towns looting as a player can not safely assume that what he sees is harmless to him and he would therefore act in much more paranoid and jumpy because he can not be certain as to what is a real threat to him and what isn't.

I think this is an excellent idea, but I'm sure that scripting ai that are harmless and only visible to specific, players at random intervals, once they have triggered it would be difficult at best.

That said, if the effects of these hallucinations and waking nightmares on players who have killed vary from unnerving through to outright panic, fear and a blur of reality and imagined. I think we have a powerful counter to excessive murdering as well as an interesting new game dynamic.

Good suggestion, mine seems proomitive in comparison.

[hoik 415]

Idiotic idea.. Murders will happen in any type of world wide apocalypse' date=' its just one more mouth to feed & for it to be a stranger who cares?

I wouldnt.

[/quote']

Sigh...you are the REASON why PvP has such a bad image. All these PvP "fixes" are aimed at making players like you think for a momunt before you act because you seem incapable of creating imaginative gameplay yourselves :@.

Ok, got that off my chest.

As for the idea its self, well...its obvious you understand the "problem", how to give value to a players life so that killing isn't a non-decision - the fear of a time out would work but in a very negative way - This solution seems to punish everyone for the acts of a few.

I think you have the "problem" nailed, but need to find a better method :)

_________________

EDIT:

For a lengthy discussion on stress/anxiety mechanic go here: http://www.dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=10885

[V4ReVolution 3]

I agree with the above post, have a read through of my other reply, it outlines a different method. It is a variation of an already existent suggestion. Not sure if It's possible, but it is something that actually adds something to the game as well as reducing excessive murder.

[Blay Wayne 31]

your ideas are as idiotic as your armchair psychology. never work in the gaming industry

[RonnieG 0]

Idiotic idea.. Murders will happen in any type of world wide apocalypse' date=' its just one more mouth to feed & for it to be a stranger who cares? [/quote']

And so you would shoot a guy from 1km away and then leave to wander back off into the woods?

That's a realistic survival strategy?

Well, no. That's the Sociopath side of things. But, there's nothing realistic about murdering someone and then standing in place for 5 minutes unable to move. I'd rather they introduced a behind the scenes sanity meter based on your murders that made you start seeing and hearing things that aren't there and make noise even when you were trying not to. The meter slowly drains over time but, only when logged on. So you can kill in self-defense without having to worry too much or you can go on a murderous spree and slowly lose yourself.

Edit: I would also like to add that the sanity meter does reset upon death.

make a full post of this idea, that is just brilliant.

This kind of stuff have been proposed countless times. It's just a way to tell you how to play, don't get me wrong I hate excessive murder and general KoS, just I don't want that kind of 'fix'.

_____________

My proposal about selective FF. The only method that allows everybody to play like they want, including cooperation, trading, betrayal and PvP of course.

A PVP toggle in a PvP-focus mod is kind of missing the point. I don't know for sure and haven't done my research at all but, if the creator/s of DayZ wanted something like a toggle, they would have built it into the game by now. It also goes against the spirit of living in a dangerous post-apocalyptic world of zombies. Where the people are always the biggest threat. If you turn it into a toggle, then you lose that. You lose the thrill of running into a big town that you know there are at least half a dozen guys and your only goal is to get painkillers because you can't take much more of that goddamn screen shaking. You're willing to take that risk, not because of the zombies but, because of the assholes that shoot on sight with their little makarovs despite being chased by a dozen or so zombies. They felt they needed to stop and take the hits from the horde behind him because you just happen to run close to him. You can't take that away from me. You can't.

What I'm trying to say is, a toggle is a lame idea. It was lame when it was introduced in UO and it's lame now.

That's actually a great alternative. So the effects of the "insanity" are increased with every additional kill? I would suggest that it is only reduced after time and only reset after it has returned to 0. This prevents disconnect and reconnect abuses.

As for the effects of the insanity itself. I suggest that they seem real to those suffering from it. For example s player can hallucinate any or all of these effects;

Glimpses of fake players' date=' hiding, dashing, aiming ay them.

Gunshots at various percieved distances. Aggro and non aggro zombie noises nearby, glimpses of non existent zombies. I hear that many killers suffer from waking nightmares. A way to reproduce this in game could be to have horrifying blood soaked faces flash up on screen randomly for a split second covering most of the game area.

The effect of hallucinations of players and zombies might not be that great when they are in the wilderness, players would be safe assuming that sighted zombies and players would likely only be hallucinations and therefore harmless.

These hallucinations compromise their safety when in towns looting as a player can not safely assume that what he sees is harmless to him and he would therefore act in much more paranoid and jumpy because he can not be certain as to what is a real threat to him and what isn't.

I think this is an excellent idea, but I'm sure that scripting ai that are harmless and only visible to specific, players at random intervals, once they have triggered it would be difficult at best.

That said, if the effects of these hallucinations and waking nightmares on players who have killed vary from unnerving through to outright panic, fear and a blur of reality and imagined. I think we have a powerful counter to excessive murdering as well as an interesting new game dynamic.

Good suggestion, mine seems proomitive in comparison.

[/quote']

The effect gets more intense and the amount the meter fills increases as your kill count increases. The number of kills within a period of time also determines how much and how fast the meter drains/fills also. For example, someone who murdered 100 players over a week would fill the meter slower and would drain it faster than someone who murdered 100 players over 4 days. The stat for the meter would stay whatever it was the last time you were logged onto a server and only drains when logged on.

The hallucinations should be subtle. A bloody face appearing on your screen for a split second isn't exactly the most subtle thing. Things like seeing what looks like a player going around a corner out of view just as you look down on a town, hearing footsteps when there's no one around, gunshots that aren't actually there, flies buzzing even when there's not a body and I don't mean when it just falls through the world. Sounds like the flies buzzing getting louder and louder and then just stops, temporary deafness, the world changing brightness to the extremes causing temporary blindness or whiteouts. The character committing suicide if you max out the meter would be intense. The last few weren't super subtle but, by the time the meter gets 3/4th full, the player should know their character is going insane.

Killing Bandits should also contribute to the meter, not just committing murders but, it should be to a lesser extent. I do want to also add that this is just a suggestion for excessive murdering and shouldn't take away from all Player killing.

your ideas are as idiotic as your armchair psychology. never work in the gaming industry

That's not very positive or constructive. I'm just sayin'.

[wesley32 1]

And again another useless topic. Been there done it please don't start it again.

[dale0404 16]

Another really bad idea. There is no way I would pay for this if I knew that killing someone would cost me > 5 mins of my REAL LIFE gaming time. That would just suck to Pluto and back.

[RonnieG 0]

And again another useless topic. Been there done it please don't start it again.

And again another useless post. Nothing insightful, useful, or significant about it. Please don't post in a thread if you're not going to contribute anything to it.

[V4ReVolution 3]

I was going to respond with a thoughtful argument addressing some of the key issues above. And in particular, this comment;

your ideas are as idiotic as your armchair psychology. never work in the gaming industry

But I fear this thread has gone downhill all too soon and I will be withdrawing my contribution from this thread after this post.

I am not interested in debating psychology with anybody in this forum, human nature, god, law, evolution, ethics or altruism. These subjects are a huge bone of contention across a wide variety of people and opinions are based in belief and people attach emotion to faith. So that is why, in a gaming community, I will be avoiding these debates.

Although I had prepared to touch on some of those subjects, as I said, a thoughtful case for my opinion that 90% of survivors in a hypothetical zombie apocalypse would not become mindless serial killers would not be met with the same degree of thought from the opposition.

I am not going down that road.

I will finish up back where we started and I will state the obvious in numbered list fashion.

1. A very large consensus of this community believes the murder levels in Dayz is excessive.

2. An equal or possibly marginally higher proportion believe the murder levels in Dayz is not excessive.

3. Another proportion of the community simply don't care enough about this issue or play enough hours to have an opinion.

I think that covers everybody if my maths is correct.

So, assuming my maths is correct, there is a huge conflict of interest.

A compromise needs to be found or else we risk alienating and driving a huge part of the community away.

I don't want a chatroom with zombies, nor do I want a deathmatch with zombies. I want something in between, I want a non linear, non objective based, non team based, open ended, never ending, zombie survival horror RPG based shooter. I want realism from the mod as the engine intended. I want realism or as close to realism from the dynamics of the game play through to the thoughts and the fears. I think that is possible, as we're in alpha now and it almost feels right, but we're not quite there yet, I think that's where the mod is headed anyway so we're bickering over moot points anyway.

So thankyou all for your worthy input, apologies to those whom my egregious rehashing of an old topic has severely offended, good night.

P.S You can sleep easy tonight with my full assurance that my ambitions are not to work within the gaming industry.