Griefer-Hunting

[pieflavor 38]

how can something be described as "cheating" in a game with no rules, other than those coded into the game and its mechanics?

ghosting is perfectly legit, so long as you're not using a hack. any sniper who sits around and doesn't check his 6 constantly for people sneaking up on him is an idiot, and deserves to get shot either by someone ghosting (which i agree, while not cheating, is a pretty dickish thing to do) or just being really sneaky.

the flipside is that ghosting is a difficult thing to time right, and logging in leaves you potentially vulnerable for a few seconds. i wouldn't try it just to get a sniper.

ghosting is cheating, just like hoarding, disconnecting, tent duping, humanity farming, server hopping, playing on low population servers, loot cycling, vehicle repairing, water filling, animal hunting and pretty much everything that doesn't involve shooting and killing players in a deathmatch mode.

at least that's the rabble rabble rabble I constantly hear on the dayz communities

[meat_helmet 2]

ghosting is cheating, just like hoarding, disconnecting, tent duping, humanity farming, server hopping, playing on low population servers, loot cycling, vehicle repairing, water filling, animal hunting and pretty much everything that doesn't involve shooting and killing players in a deathmatch mode.

at least that's the rabble rabble rabble I constantly hear on the dayz communities

So...beans as well?

Damnit, love the bean.

[Wellseh 5]

Back to topic: I understand that for a lot of people, the fun of this game lies in the thrill of PvP. But as far as I'm concerned, there's no thrill in being insta-killed by a ghillied-up sniper in the hills. I hate that sniper rifles are so easy to use and so damn effective in this game (I recently obtained a DMR and after spending only 30 minutes learning the ropes, I could lead a headshot on a sprinting zombie from 300m away - it simply should not be that easy), and that, thanks to hackers, the AS50 is so damn common on servers. For me, PvP is about someone in the distance who's after your equipment opening fire on you with an automatic weapon, you running and diving for the nearest cover, possibly wounded and making a snap decision - do I shoot back, or do I run and hide? For me, that's the essence of a survival game.

I remember my days as a newbie, running around the coast looking for supplies. At first, my main cause of death was zombies as I didn't know how to deal with them, but after that, sniper bullets became my leading cause of death. Some of my most intense and fun showdowns with hordes of zombies and other players were abruptly ended by a sniper shot to the face. Someone sees you having fun and decides you don't deserve to have fun, so they shoot you. In my book, that's griefing. Yes, it did ruin my game experience for a while. I suspect that many new players still shake their heads as to why they keep getting instakilled on the south coast.

Also, I don't consider 'ghosting' a cheat. It's an abuse of game mechanics, and a complete dick move, but it's not a cheat. As for playing on low pop servers, it's a necessity with all the snipers around.

[nic0 14]

ghosting is cheating, just like hoarding, disconnecting, tent duping, humanity farming, server hopping, playing on low population servers, loot cycling, vehicle repairing, water filling, animal hunting and pretty much everything that doesn't involve shooting and killing players in a deathmatch mode.

at least that's the rabble rabble rabble I constantly hear on the dayz communities

exactly - basically, everything that any other player doesn't like is "cheating". in a game with no rules, everyone becomes a judge of what's "right".

don't judge, just play the game!

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

ghosting is cheating, just like hoarding, disconnecting, tent duping, humanity farming, server hopping, playing on low population servers, loot cycling, vehicle repairing, water filling, animal hunting and pretty much everything that doesn't involve shooting and killing players in a deathmatch mode.

at least that's the rabble rabble rabble I constantly hear on the dayz communities

We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly 'round 'ere! Also rabbling is a cheap exploit as bad hacking! :(

[nic0 14]

Back to topic: I understand that for a lot of people, the fun of this game lies in the thrill of PvP. But as far as I'm concerned, there's no thrill in being insta-killed by a ghillied-up sniper in the hills. I hate that sniper rifles are so easy to use and so damn effective in this game (I recently obtained a DMR and after spending only 30 minutes learning the ropes, I could lead a headshot on a sprinting zombie from 300m away - it simply should not be that easy), and that, thanks to hackers, the AS50 is so damn common on servers. For me, PvP is about someone in the distance who's after your equipment opening fire on you with an automatic weapon, you running and diving for the nearest cover, possibly wounded and making a snap decision - do I shoot back, or do I run and hide? For me, that's the essence of a survival game.

I remember my days as a newbie, running around the coast looking for supplies. At first, my main cause of death was zombies as I didn't know how to deal with them, but after that, sniper bullets became my leading cause of death. Some of my most intense and fun showdowns with hordes of zombies and other players were abruptly ended by a sniper shot to the face. Someone sees you having fun and decides you don't deserve to have fun, so they shoot you. In my book, that's griefing. Yes, it did ruin my game experience for a while. I suspect that many new players still shake their heads as to why they keep getting instakilled on the south coast.

Also, I don't consider 'ghosting' a cheat. It's an abuse of game mechanics, and a complete dick move, but it's not a cheat. As for playing on low pop servers, it's a necessity with all the snipers around.

very much agree with you, though i'd say that AS50s are so common because of duping rather than hacking.

i think the game clearly doesn't quite know how to deal with snipers. the mechanics aren't quite right - they're unbalanced. it should be possible to spot a sniper more easily once they've fired a shot, and this should make sniping much more difficult and camping impossible. it should also be hard or impossible to snipe, and therefore control, an entire town from so far away and with so little equipment - you might be able to do that in real life, but this is a game.

having said all that - if you don't want to be sniped, stay the hell away from those towns. berenzino is better, as there are no sniper hills in the surrounds that can command the entire town.

i'd disagree about the DMR though. you show a lot of skill, and have taken the time to earn that skill - that shows commitment and should be rewarded. headshots are difficult to do. the AS50, however, is stupid. one shot kill wherever you land the shot from more than 800m isn't a balanced mechanic given the rest of the game. if the devs can find a balancing counter, then fine, leave it in (standalone).

it's also stupid that you can shoot down a heli in one shot with an AS50. again, totally imbalanced against the difficulty of obtaining and maintaining a heli. it's supposed to be a game first and foremost - never mind real life, it needs to have balanced mechanics, needs the correct balance of risk/reward, and needs to be FUN.

[nic0 14]

I remember my days as a newbie, running around the coast looking for supplies. At first, my main cause of death was zombies as I didn't know how to deal with them, but after that, sniper bullets became my leading cause of death. Some of my most intense and fun showdowns with hordes of zombies and other players were abruptly ended by a sniper shot to the face. Someone sees you having fun and decides you don't deserve to have fun, so they shoot you. In my book, that's griefing. Yes, it did ruin my game experience for a while. I suspect that many new players still shake their heads as to why they keep getting instakilled on the south coast.

also, specifically on this, you make a good case here. one thing that i can't quite agree with is the idea that the snipers are seeing you having fun and deciding to end that fun just for the sake of it. that may often be the case, but ultimately this game is (at least partly) based around a combative game mechanic - your fun is predicated on ending someone else's. sometimes sniping is just plain fun - and it's a shame that that fun comes at someone else's expense.

perhaps the problem is permadeath. i honestly feel that the devs have this wrong. most of the things people complain about would be mitigated by the death mechanic. if you only dropped (say) a random item, or your primary, or both on death, your "fun" wouldn't be entirely ended at that point. the sniper can have fun sniping, without ending your fun; you can have fun even if sniped (albeit curtailed by losing something and respawning back at the coast).

no more "griefing", no more being a dick.

the permadeath thing is going to increasingly be a problem with the new mechanics such as disease and so on - it's going to feel far more like a punishment and less like fun as it becomes harder to survive, and as you find yourself losing so much more to death. at the root of so many complaints about griefers and hackers and bugs is, even if it's never explicitly stated, an irritation with the permadeath mechanic.

Edited September 27, 2012 by nic0

[pieflavor 38]

also, specifically on this, you make a good case here. one thing that i can't quite agree with is the idea that the snipers are seeing you having fun and deciding to end that fun just for the sake of it. that may often be the case, but ultimately this game is (at least partly) based around a combative game mechanic - your fun is predicated on ending someone else's. sometimes sniping is just plain fun - and it's a shame that that fun comes at someone else's expense.

perhaps the problem is permadeath. i honestly feel that the devs have this wrong. most of the things people complain about would be mitigated by the death mechanic. if you only dropped (say) a random item, or your primary, or both on death, your "fun" wouldn't be entirely ended at that point. the sniper can have fun sniping, without ending your fun; you can have fun even if sniped (albeit curtailed by losing something and respawning back at the coast).

no more "griefing", no more being a dick.

the permadeath thing is going to increasingly be a problem with the new mechanics such as disease and so on - it's going to feel far more like a punishment and less like fun as it becomes harder to survive, and as you find yourself losing so much more to death. at the root of so many complaints about griefers and hackers and bugs is, even if it's never explicitly stated, an irritation with the permadeath mechanic.

you're describing the design philosophy for a casual game, can't say it wouldn't be compatible with dayz (since it was never advertised as a hardcore game) but this design of "avoid antifun" and "everyone ahould enjoy the game" is highly despised by hardcore gamers.

[Swineflew 480]

you're describing the design philosophy for a casual game, can't say it wouldn't be compatible with dayz (since it was never advertised as a hardcore game) but this design of "avoid antifun" and "everyone ahould enjoy the game" is highly despised by hardcore gamers.

I feel like I should expand on this.

There are people who enjoy being punished for dying or losing. We enjoy games with consequences for making bad choices. Eve is a great example of that type of game. If you're stupid you get punished. You could lose all your ships, your money, things you worked months for could be gone in minutes because of a stupid mistake.

There are enough games that hold your hand, and wipe your butt for you.

We didn't have that in games a long time ago. We had lives and continues, you died too many times you had to start over from the beginning, is there still a game that does that anymore?

Old MMOs used to lose exp when you died, so you'd do your best to play smart and not die.

I'm going on a rant, but what I'm basically saying is that there are a lot of people who like harsh, cruel, unforgiving games like this and a lot of people hate when someone tries to turn it into another game that will hold your hand. There are enough of those games out there in the world.

[Derpy_Hooves (DayZ) 4521]

Bring out the punishment!!

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

Bring out the punishment!!

Oh god yes..punish me, i've been a bery bad carebear pony?! :huh:

[nic0 14]

you're describing the design philosophy for a casual game, can't say it wouldn't be compatible with dayz (since it was never advertised as a hardcore game) but this design of "avoid antifun" and "everyone ahould enjoy the game" is highly despised by hardcore gamers.

well, i take your point, but i didn't say that "everyone" should enjoy the game! i'd also say that i'm not describing a casual game here - i'm suggesting there must be a sweetspot between a game being fun for many (definitely never for all) and being only enjoyable to the "hardcore".

proper gamers don't like to be punished for totally random, unfair, or unbalanced things - they like to be punished for making legitimate mistakes. things they can learn from and do better at. casual gamers see one setback and give up - i don't care about those people either.

i'm simply saying that if you're going to have permadeath, you have to be *absolute* in that every single game mechanic is perfectly balanaced, fair, proportionate and (yes) fun within the context of the game. if you get any of that wrong, so that people are permadeathed by someone with a weapon that has no counter, is way overpowered, and that kills you so randomly that you can't learn from it, then that's not hardcore, it's perverse.

[Derpy_Hooves (DayZ) 4521]

Oh god yes..punish me, i've been a bery bad carebear pony?! :huh:

Errrrr............... I'm kinda a little freaked out reading this lol

Edit: some of us Bronies aint all sharing and caring, i pride myself on being a bit of a dick of times!

Edited September 27, 2012 by Derpy_Hooves

[Osaka (DayZ) 32]

I can't wait until the "log out delay" will be put in. No more ALT F4'ing weaklings.

[Jex =TE= (DayZ) 218]

Snipers are over powered - that is the fucking point of them. There are no balancing issues - if you want balance then grab a sniper rifle and sit on a hill - there, now you're balanced. "But I want to run around electro killing people!!!" AAhhhh so basically you just want PVP - screw the zombie's and the premise of the game. In fact most of you would probably be better off joining a pvp server with just weapon crates and have the action centered solely around cherno/electro - there are arma servers out there that cater for this.

[Swineflew 480]

Snipers are over powered - that is the fucking point of them. There are no balancing issues - if you want balance then grab a sniper rifle and sit on a hill - there, now you're balanced. "But I want to run around electro killing people!!!" AAhhhh so basically you just want PVP - screw the zombie's and the premise of the game. In fact most of you would probably be better off joining a pvp server with just weapon crates and have the action centered solely around cherno/electro - there are arma servers out there that cater for this.

1) Snipers aren't overpowered and serve their intended purpose.

2) If you're running around in the open 500m from a tree line, then yea sure it may seem imbalanced that you got shot, what do you expect to happen?

3) Your PvP server weapon crate idea is a stupidly vague generalization about people who pvp in a game with intended pvp and try to label them as "cod kids"

You're whole argument is "I don't like how people build their castle in this sandbox".

[Derpy_Hooves (DayZ) 4521]

1) Snipers aren't overpowered and serve their intended purpose.

2) If you're running around in the open 500m from a tree line, then yea sure it may seem imbalanced that you got shot, what do you expect to happen?

3) Your PvP server weapon crate idea is a stupidly vague generalization about people who pvp in a game with intended pvp and try to label them as "cod kids"

You're whole argument is "I don't like how people build their castle in this sandbox".

Agreed, everyone feed the snipers really, if you wise up a little then you may avoid them more often...

Snipers should be kept, they are military equipment after all, just it's a specialists weapon... did i mention Military?

PvP was always going to be part of the game, and so was the constant whining of players being out done by others... i mean come on its a Zombie survival game with GUNS.... what on earth did you think would happen, all meet at Starry and sing "combaya" round a damned camp fire??

People have prefrences and class roles, either deal with it or learn to adapt and beat your enemy instead of crying about it.

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

but but but realism, zombies, SNIPERS!!! :rolleyes:

[ZTrainz 21]

well, i take your point, but i didn't say that "everyone" should enjoy the game! i'd also say that i'm not describing a casual game here - i'm suggesting there must be a sweetspot between a game being fun for many (definitely never for all) and being only enjoyable to the "hardcore".

proper gamers don't like to be punished for totally random, unfair, or unbalanced things - they like to be punished for making legitimate mistakes. things they can learn from and do better at. casual gamers see one setback and give up - i don't care about those people either.

i'm simply saying that if you're going to have permadeath, you have to be *absolute* in that every single game mechanic is perfectly balanaced, fair, proportionate and (yes) fun within the context of the game. if you get any of that wrong, so that people are permadeathed by someone with a weapon that has no counter, is way overpowered, and that kills you so randomly that you can't learn from it, then that's not hardcore, it's perverse.

No... just NO.

Random, unfair, unbalanced... bullshit. You getting sniped was a legitimate mistake on your part. You know there will be snipers in Cherno. You even know where they're most likely set up. If you aren't skilled enough to use buildings and terrain as cover, avoid the damn cities. You can survive and gear up quite well just by hitting small towns and deer stands.

The snipers have a significant tactical advantage but everyone knows this after an hour of playing. Think about what you're doing, what you're about to do and ask yourself how likely it is that you'll survive. If you're not an idiot, these "totally random, unfair and unbalanced things" won't happen to you nearly as often.

Listen... the reason this game is good is because of permadeath. The consequences of your mistakes are severe (relative to the last ten years of gaming) but when you prevail, your victories are so much more satisfying.

These "proper gamers" that you speak of are soft. They've been coddled for the last decade. They don't realize that to really, truely appreciate winning, you have to lose and it has to hurt.

... what was this thread about again???

[nic0 14]

I feel like I should expand on this.

There are people who enjoy being punished for dying or losing. We enjoy games with consequences for making bad choices. Eve is a great example of that type of game. If you're stupid you get punished. You could lose all your ships, your money, things you worked months for could be gone in minutes because of a stupid mistake.

There are enough games that hold your hand, and wipe your butt for you.

We didn't have that in games a long time ago. We had lives and continues, you died too many times you had to start over from the beginning, is there still a game that does that anymore?

Old MMOs used to lose exp when you died, so you'd do your best to play smart and not die.

I'm going on a rant, but what I'm basically saying is that there are a lot of people who like harsh, cruel, unforgiving games like this and a lot of people hate when someone tries to turn it into another game that will hold your hand. There are enough of those games out there in the world.

i'm perfectly well aware of the death mechanic of games that died out decades ago! i played them at the time (i'm old too). i've played the more recent games that have permadeath too, and there's a big difference. those old games were still fun! the new games rely on very different mechanics to make them fun. and even in eve, you can (i think) mitigate against death in many ways. i think you're exaggerating that eve has true permadeath, but i'm willing to be proved wrong (don't they have cloning or something? dayz definitely won't have that!)

the most recent permadeath game i played was diablo3, and i died in that due to a dodgy internet connection! that wasn't fun in any way.

death has to have consequences, i agree. in dayz, it seems right that those should be as strict as they are now. but in a game so riddled with bugs, unbalanced weapons, hacked in weapons (and i'm not even going to mention hackers themselves) it's a bit unfair. i don't care, because it's an alpha and i have to take my chances. i mentioned the standalone because i'll be paying for that, because i'll apparently have to spend a lot of time looting batteries, drugs, getting ill, taking a shit and doing a whole bunch of stuff that is dubious in the extreme - if i die *unfairly* (bug, someone exploiting, lag) after going through all that stuff and i lose *everything*, i'm not going to be having a lot of fun, and what will be the enticement to make me start again?

even hardcore gamers have fun, don't they? or do they sit around all day seething in anger and hating every minute of their gaming lives?

if the game is made too teeth-grindingly hardcore (not hard, just hardcore), then it will scare away a lot of people (not casual gamers - i'm talking about the very many people that are neither casual or hardcore), which could leave servers largely empty, and make the game less interesting (not fun, because they don't want fun!) for the hardcore.

i'd love a game that allows hardcore and middle-core (i made that up) gamers to interact and both enjoy the game. i love having hardcore gamers on the server with me, they make a game like dayz what it is!

[Jex =TE= (DayZ) 218]

1) Snipers aren't overpowered and serve their intended purpose.

What??

The intended purpose IS to be overpowered - that's why a sniper and spotter team can own an area or stop an entire platoon from moving and then call in an airstrike to take them out.

That's kind of the point of a sniper - so yes, they are overpowered as they are intended to be otherwise armies wouldn't employ them.

[Swineflew 480]

What??

The intended purpose IS to be overpowered - that's why a sniper and spotter team can own an area or stop an entire platoon from moving and then call in an airstrike to take them out.

That's kind of the point of a sniper - so yes, they are overpowered as they are intended to be otherwise armies wouldn't employ them.

Oh, we'll there you have it guys.

Snipers, overpowered in DayZ because they'll airstrike you.

[Derpy_Hooves (DayZ) 4521]

Oh, we'll there you have it guys.

Snipers, overpowered in DayZ because they'll airstrike you.

Shit has just went Full Retard.... again!!

[Maniacmike (DayZ) 24]

I had to laugh at the elite sniper bit.

They camp in or at hard to reach places?? What on the buildings at the docks in electro? Lol

Every bit of this game is made unsafe for anyone elite or not.

[codave 121]

The only reason it's hard to kill these idiots on Dobry or the Cherno silos is because of combat logging and ghosting. The only time any of these snipers actually get a FRH on me is if I'm in a highly visible spot, stopped, and looting.

If I'm moving I'll generally get away just fine while they pop off dozens of rounds at me. They're terrible shots. They aren't clever at all, because they use the same stupid spots all the time. They use AS50's and Ghillies as a crutch, since they need all the help they can get.

I'm not mad when these guys kill me. Usually it takes them forever, and at that point I'm already laughing at their ineptitude. If the 15th shot is the one that hits me, it's luck and not skill.

Luckily not all snipers are like this. It's just that the ones you hear about or see the effects of are the Elektro/Cherno campers. They aren't a fair representation of all snipers in the game.

My 3 week old character died the other day. It happened because the other player outsmarted me. Fair kill, and I really hope he got the good stuff I was carrying. Looking back on it, I died because I overlooked something that should have been obvious, but apparently I got complacent.

I would love to see the combat logging AS50 BushWookies live on medium/high pop servers without an AS50 or a Ghillie for several weeks, while actively searching for kills, and then actually looting them.

They either can't, or won't.

So anyone who kills them has my beans.