Question to Rocket: Gun nerfing

[Tatatito 14]

I think that the changes coming with regard to weapons will require a massive and complete rebalancing, and a resulting change in the entire way DayZ is played.

In simplified terms, currently ArmA2 stores your current weapon as (for all intents and purposes) a string reference. I.e. you have an "M16". This isn't strictly accurate, as it stores it as a config reference but I'm splitting hairs there...

We are moving dayz to a more object oriented reference system for weapons and equipment. For example, weapons will be an object, which means they can have references and attributes unique to that instance of it. So that M16 you are holding could have an attachment, say, that increases it's accuracy or reduces its muzzleflash. Or, your night vision goggles have batteries "attached" that get used over time. When you drop the object down or put it in your back, the information isn't "lost" as it would be currently.

This simple change might not seem much, but when tied with attributes such as weapon condition, you could see significant changes in play style. Pistols, in my experience, were a much simpler weapon to maintain than a rifle such as the Steyr AUG or the SAR 21 (two weapons I am very familiar with). DayZ will replicate this with its object oriented approach to weapons. Catastrophic failure of your weapons is unlikely but your weapon would jam much more if it is deteriorated. Furthermore, for electronic items such as Night Vision Goggles or range finders, durability becomes extremely important. I have been experimenting with tying this into the damage system also, with good results... i.e. shoot someone in the head and cause huge damage to items on their head.

So I guess, to answer the question: the changes with standalone entirely change the relationship between equipment and the player. These changes as first seem rather trivial but quickly you can see how these will have very significant flow-on effects to the player. Hence, I am not spending any time at all focusing on re-balancing the weapons currently, rather focusing on increasing the authenticity using a few simple, yet wide-reaching, mechanic changes to "add" to the game rather than nerf something because it has an undesired effect.

(I hope this ramble makes sense!)

In this snippet of information ; Rocket has just fixed every problem I have with balancing, seriously.

[sostronk 334]

Catastrophic failure of your weapons is unlikely but your weapon would jam much more if it is deteriorated. Furthermore, for electronic items such as Night Vision Goggles or range finders, durability becomes extremely important. I have been experimenting with tying this into the damage system also, with good results... i.e. shoot someone in the head and cause huge damage to items on their head.

So I guess, to answer the question: the changes with standalone entirely change the relationship between equipment and the player. These changes as first seem rather trivial but quickly you can see how these will have very significant flow-on effects to the player. Hence, I am not spending any time at all focusing on re-balancing the weapons currently, rather focusing on increasing the authenticity using a few simple, yet wide-reaching, mechanic changes to "add" to the game rather than nerf something because it has an undesired effect.

I hope your considering putting in weapons cleaning kits into the loot so I can clean my weapons 1-2 times daily so I don't get regular jams.

[Bakst 98]

To be fair I WAS a bit of a dick about that whole situation. But, I guess it needs to be placed in context with the terrible problems hacking caused us, and everyone needs to let off steam.

haha well i'd argue most people here have posted a few things they later regret, i know i have :) also, rampant cheating threatens the whole project and so i understand that you were mad! i would be too. the discussion simply got out of hand, whatevs.

anyway i'm off topic. really looking forward to the standalone release and all the exciting new features you guys are working on. maybe a public alpha release isn't such a bad idea -- weed out the scripters early on then let everyone else get on with it in beta ;)

[Arty (DayZ) 47]

I would also like for guns to be how they were before nerf

[merrfack 90]

Like you said, unless you can shoot someone in the head - its not so great. And I don't think a single member of my platoon ever managed to do that during our quick reaction drills during our pistol qual. I certainly couldn't, I'm a TERRIBLE shot.

Sounds like me, accuracy by volume with side-arms

[tommes 331]

I was actually pleased with the handgun nerf, what is the point to finding a M240 when a guy with a M1911 can kill you quick in a close range firefight.

This is not an RPG with leveling and higher characters can't be touched by new ones. If you just pretend to model reality then a little houseknive found in every kitchen can kill any dude with any weaponry...as long as it's not an stab proof vest or some medieval armor. In reality some guy with a makarov can kill you easily with a couple of hits. He just has to get close enough to hit you. The weakness of handguns is their limited range and their lack of being able to penetrate armor. Otherwise they are as deadly as anything.

[Gavalin 90]

What? Sniping is a skill and a 7.62 round would kill most people in 1 shot.

Do you play on noob servers with names and crosshairs or something? Because they completely ruin the weapon balance.

Ever tried to range find using the mildots? That's a skill, especially when you have to do it on a moving target.

I'm not talking about noob sniping either, proper squad vs squad fire fights

Yea its a skill to know this stuff /google /practice with zombies /smile /wait for player to stop /smile and thank google.

Now my smartassness aside. I understand having marksmanship skills in DayZ is rare look at all the forum post complaining about zombies killing people. "My pistol don't kill them." I ran around with a sniper, I had no will to go through the "Learning curve" of sniping in this game. I will give you guys the credit it -is- harder system then BF3 but your targets are slower. Soo...yea I found it much more of a "talent" with aiming when I took down 5 running zombies with 6 shots from an M9 SD. When ex military folks tell me "You are fucking surgical with that thing" thats when I smiled. Taking a player down with an M9 SD at 30 meters, when he as a Lee Enfield.

Mind you a lot of snipers are snipers because yes they know what to do how to do the math and awesome. The people that are not worth mentioning are the snipers that kill the folks for no reason then to just do it. So annoying. Getting head capped = ok fair shot. Getting AS 50'd in the foot while zig zaging = stupid as hell.

[merrfack 90]

Mind you a lot of snipers are snipers because yes they know what to do how to do the math and awesome. The people that are not worth mentioning are the snipers that kill the folks for no reason then to just do it. So annoying. Getting head capped = ok fair shot. Getting AS 50'd in the foot while zig zaging = stupid as hell.

I'd have to agree... as50 to the foot alone wouldn't kill you on spot, but would ruin your day and you would be yelling "wheres my foot and or calf"

[Zombie Jesus 723]

This is not an RPG with leveling and higher characters can't be touched by new ones. If you just pretend to model reality then a little houseknive found in every kitchen can kill any dude with any weaponry...as long as it's not an stab proof vest or some medieval armor. In reality some guy with a makarov can kill you easily with a couple of hits. He just has to get close enough to hit you. The weakness of handguns is their limited range and their lack of being able to penetrate armor. Otherwise they are as deadly as anything.

Not saying you should not be able to kill me with a common weapon, just that it should be harder to kill me with a common weapon. I do not want Dayz to feel like some stale MMORPG where leveling and skill trees are the norm, so I am perfectly fine losing a fight with my M240 to some guy with a makarov who got the drop on me, I just would prefer my M240 to do far more damage than the makarov. Hell the other day I was on Fallujah and a guy comes up on a bike into the warehouse I was looting and he had an AS50 and I had a hatchet, we both died at the end of that fight and I found it hilarious (he did not). If you enjoy fact based comedy check out this "article" from Cracked (in fairness they are usually well researched for a humor site, informative and funny).

http://www.cracked.com/article_19698_7-deadly-things-you-wont-believe-most-people-survive.html

People survive gunshots all the time and they are not nearly as deadly as some would have you believe. I could live with four or five direct body hits knocking me out (meaning you would eventually kill me if you shot me a few more times), but killing someone or knocking them out with two body shots with the lame ass makarov would be inappropriate. Even the .45 Colt and revolver should take a few shots since the M4, a rifle designed for battle, does not kill you in two shots. Like I said, head shots are head shots, but even there I actually know someone who survived relatively intact when a bullet went through his frontal lobe.

[Gavalin 90]

I'd have to agree... as50 to the foot alone wouldn't kill you on spot, but would ruin your day and you would be yelling "wheres my foot and or calf"

Oh I know it would rip your leg off. I'm ok with it killing with any thing above a hip and as long as its in the chest part of the shoulder. Just like the .50 DE...a body hit is mostly fatal due to force of impact. Turns the insides to mash potato. Crippling and disabling affects would be awesome in that respect. As far as small or more common weapons, if I'm running through a field and I take say three rounds, meat of the thigh, side of my chest and my left shoulder. I will most likely survive. Most likely make the run through the field as unless something gets struck like a bone I won't register the pain instantly. Sure many of us have received a wound or two where you didn't realize you were cut/bleeding until someone pointed it out. I once bailed over a barbed wire fence, just like dove. I didn't realize I caught the fence until I got home and realized my groin was torn out of my pants and I had a wicked looking slice on my inner thigh. (Before anyone asks I was running from a bull that had been let into the cow field with out our knowing, we were hunting in the wooded area there when the damn thing came at us.)

Hell I don't know all the talk has me so excited for the stand alone. WTB stasis chamber until release?

Edited September 27, 2012 by Gavalin

[tommes 331]

People survive gunshots all the time and they are not nearly as deadly as some would have you believe. I could live with four or five direct body hits knocking me out (meaning you would eventually kill me if you shot me a few more times), but killing someone or knocking them out with two body shots with the lame ass makarov would be inappropriate. Even the .45 Colt and revolver should take a few shots since the M4, a rifle designed for battle, does not kill you in two shots. Like I said, head shots are head shots, but even there I actually know someone who survived relatively intact when a bullet went through his frontal lobe.

You can't think like "This gun does that damage so that gun must have this..."! Life...or death for that matter...does not work that way. Stuff is way more complicated with different types of bullets, what parts of body you hit in what angle and whatnot. And the thing is at ranges from 0 to 25 meters you probably are better of with a pistol than a machine gun. And even with the relatively weak makarov ammo hit with a couple of rounds you are maybe not dead, but incapable of fighting on...except maybe you are on certain drugs like amphetamine.

Anyway, there are certain limits in where modelling reality can go. Right now it's pretty bad I think. It was better before the nerf. As a quick fix increasing power of pistols would be nice. In the long run a different damage and health systems is necessary to statsify demands.

[Katana67 2907]

I also think there needs to be a difference, as I think there already is a little, in firearm vs. zombie damage and firearm vs. player damage.

Because we're shooting rounds into, supposedly, two different animals (as it were) with two very different sets of behaviors. Succinctly put, I think it needs to be decided upon whether zombies and humans can take more/less damage or the same.

As for weapons being nerfed, I can't really say I've found them lacking (besides pistols). If you put two 9x19mm rounds into someone's chest, they're going down for sure. Likewise with .45 ACP and so-on. The only weapons that I've experienced being "underpowered" are the Bizon and the MP5SD. All of the AR's and AK's feel right enough to me, likewise with the sniper rifles.

There are other issues that I feel are a detriment to the combat, namely the (in my opinion) un-reasonable suppression effect and stupidly long "recovery" period after sprinting. Running PSD drills, we're sprinting pretty heavily and making accurate shots no problem. It's a matter of muscle memory, not physical endurance in this case. Unless you're peering down a high-magnification scope with your chest pumping, you're still going to be able to hit what you want to hit.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Katana67

[ZomboWTF 527]

sounds really awesome, a weapon upgrade system is what i dreamed of for DayZ, im definitely gonna buy the standalone as soon as possible

Then my dream of a M14 ACOG or M4A3 ACOG or AKM with Dragunov sight can finally become true^^

however, if the damage of weapons in dayZ would be upped a bit, especially for shotguns and handguns, the mod would be way better to play

at least make the .45 ACP rounds stronger, they are real killers against human targets normally

[tommes 331]

I also think there needs to be a difference, as I think there already is a little, in firearm vs. zombie damage and firearm vs. player damage.

It sort of is already. Zeds have like 4500 blood. As stated in interviews rocket plans to have different stages of the infection with zeds more human like in early stages and then deteriorating from that. And zeds are only infected humans. Their bodies react to shots as do uninfected.

As for weapons being nerfed, I can't really say I've found them lacking (besides pistols). If you put two 9x19mm rounds into someone's chest, they're going down for sure

You don't use pistols that much, do you? Even with a .45 you will need 3 or more body shots on a zed. On a player you need much more. You can't bring someone down with a pistol, even when you have the jump on him. That's exactly the problem.

[boxman80 964]

I was actually pleased with the handgun nerf, what is the point to finding a M240 when a guy with a M1911 can kill you quick in a close range firefight. Head shots are one thing, but shots to other areas should not kill you quickly and you should suffer from having common gear in the game.

That was my point though, there should be no real diffrence in guns other then personal preference for various diffrent approaches to their use. A gun is a gun at the end of the day and they are all designed to be fatal and should all present a danger to players.

These guns should have their own pros and cons that are more relevant to the game and make them better in certain situations. For example the M240's pro within the game would be it's a player and zombie killer at decent range with it's impressive & constant fire rate and ability to supress and mow down people. It's cons would be it's heavy, reducing players ability to carry items, its cumbersome so manoverablity would be compromised, it's accuracey isn't great and it eats bullets like a fat kid at a cookie stand - ammo that in large quantities (box/belt format) which shouldnt be that common. Oh and as a military grade weapon it would requie a bit of maintenance.

Yes the guy withthe Makorov can still kill you with 1-2 shots, but the cons of his weapon would be it's low calibre (so if you did have body armour on it wouldnt be as effective), the range and accuracey are poor (especailly under supressive fire!) and he only has 9 shots before he has to reload!

Edited September 27, 2012 by Box

[Bakst 98]

Oh I know it would rip your leg off. I'm ok with it killing with any thing above a hip and as long as its in the chest part of the shoulder. Just like the .50 DE...a body hit is mostly fatal due to force of impact. Turns the insides to mash potato. Crippling and disabling affects would be awesome in that respect. As far as small or more common weapons, if I'm running through a field and I take say three rounds, meat of the thigh, side of my chest and my left shoulder. I will most likely survive. Most likely make the run through the field as unless something gets struck like a bone I won't register the pain instantly. Sure many of us have received a wound or two where you didn't realize you were cut/bleeding until someone pointed it out. I once bailed over a barbed wire fence, just like dove. I didn't realize I caught the fence until I got home and realized my groin was torn out of my pants and I had a wicked looking slice on my inner thigh. (Before anyone asks I was running from a bull that had been let into the cow field with out our knowing, we were hunting in the wooded area there when the damn thing came at us.)

Hell I don't know all the talk has me so excited for the stand alone. WTB stasis chamber until release?

wow your story about the bull is wild! anyway i just wanted to say that afaik, many of the features you mention (and discussed by others as well) are in fact coming with the SA, i.e. a more authentic and complex damage system for health and gear that includes having to make a splint for broken bones to heal over time, etc.

[ZomboWTF 527]

a .50 would likely kill you when hit in the chest or any important parts, however, if it doesnt directly hit the bone in an arm or leg, it wont blow it off like in movies

saying that, a M24 hit in the chest will drop you just as well, at least the M24 could be made a one-shot rifle to the chest and head, but better would be if all rifles, including AS50 and M107 would kill only when hitting improtant parts

since you can cure broken legs with morphine completely, and the game isn't all around realism, even game-wise .50s are a no-skill sniper gun and not exactly good for the game imho, however, they will stay anyway since so many people find them awesome when having them, and only hate them when being shot at from a .50

weapon stuff for the standalone seems great, but a little tweak on damage for the mod or even the health of players could make the game far better than it is now

since every high.geared player is heading to cherno and electro to snipe, at least make the enfield a one-hit weapon again^^

[malau (DayZ) 36]

You know I was starting to get a bit worried, as player numbers were down a bit as were online forum numbers...

Two words - Borderlands 2.

[iamblazelflack 33]

Me and this bandit had a standoff in one of the upper tan casinos. We both had a makarov, I had 6 mags. He hand probably 4-5. He came into the room and we both unloaded into each other, multiple times. It ruined the fire fight that we were sitting there in the same room unloading into each other knowing that we were just going to shoot it off into each other once again. So yeah lol I think the makarovs at least need a buff.

[ZomboWTF 527]

Me and this bandit had a standoff in one of the upper tan casinos. We both had a makarov, I had 6 mags. He hand probably 4-5. He came into the room and we both unloaded into each other, multiple times. It ruined the fire fight that we were sitting there in the same room unloading into each other knowing that we were just going to shoot it off into each other once again. So yeah lol I think the makarovs at least need a buff.

had this happen often, makarov, m1911 and revolver are unable to kille someone with just one mag and without a headshot, i found it better sometimes to attack with a hatchet than with a pistol...

[tommes 331]

Rocket said in some other thread that he is swamped working on standalone. I guess we will have to sit it out.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Its not the damage needs buffing its the player health needs lowering..... try ARMA see how much faster a pistol drops you, in this mod the player health has been buffed way higher than intended for the weapon damages

This guy knows what he talking about. Some of you seem to forget that DayZ is an arma 2 mod. Arma 2 doesn't use the blood system for health. I believe it uses a 10 hit point scale. pistols in arma usually range from 4-6 on the ten point scale. This results in two/ three shot kills with pistols (which is realistic). DayZ's system is different so the Arma 2 balance effected it much differently.

[attorney1977 311]

Attachments were only listed as an example here, attributes is really the best word to use. An assigned attribute could be anything from batteries for an NVG, through to the amount of water in a canteen (or the quality of water in the canteen), or how perished a food/meat item you have is. Attachment could also be the magazine that you have for your weapon, both it's quality and the amount of rounds that it holds.

Hi mate,

Will assigning attributes to guns also give persistent values for fire mode and zeroing? ATM if I am using the AKM, I can set it up for single-shot and 200m zeroing. If I change to sidearm and back, then the values are reset to full-auto and 300m.

Thanks

[Mad Z 51]

I would support a return to old damage values. They are quite of balance now. For example, I logged off in a bad location and found myself logging in next to someone with a Makarov. He fired a whole mag into my body before setup was completed, and I ended him quickly with my M4A1 CCO while only losing a few thousand blood. On the other hand, I killed two players with only one mag of my Makarov by shooting them a few times in the head each. The body shot damage should be comparable at the very least to the current headshot damage, since right now, it is a joke.

[Gavalin 90]

wow your story about the bull is wild! anyway i just wanted to say that afaik, many of the features you mention (and discussed by others as well) are in fact coming with the SA, i.e. a more authentic and complex damage system for health and gear that includes having to make a splint for broken bones to heal over time, etc.

Wasn't my favorite time...I'll be honest.