How Hacking Costs Rocket (Bohemia) Money, AND WHY THAT DOESN'T MATTER (includes reply from Rocket)

[nic0 14]

@rocket

i hear what you say about not being a breadhead. i think that's honourable, and i believe you too. but i think the OP wasn't really worrying about your financial health - to me, the point of the post, about ensuring as many people as possible buy this game, is because more customers means a better game. doesn't it?

surely if the game is popular, that means more players on the servers, and this game (to me) is all about the players. as you say, it's an openworld game - the players, and their interactions, create the narrative. surely it follows that more players=better game.

i don't think anyone's suggesting dumbing the game down for the sake of popularity, but i think there's a genuine concern that if too many are leaving the game, or becoming disillusioned, then that could impact on the final product - not because the game you build will be worse, but because the game is simply going to be better with more players.

personally, i'm still happy to play as it is. but in a couple more months i think the constant loss of my best kit to hackers will likely have me either running around with nothing more than a can of beans and the first rifle i find, or logging out for good until standalone rolls by. that's not a complaint - i've had more than my money's worth from arma by playing dayz already!

[[email protected] 86]

for some odd reason i already see that on day1 of the standalone. the game will have the same hackers with the same amount as in the alpha. Same game engine, same anti-hacker system, and sadly same hypocrite developer.

"you say that "what you do is insane, that you make a full game in just a few months" <-- In reality you just use the same code you built already (on Bohemias engine). almost a copy+paste with a "little" work to fit in. So tha "full game in few moths" you're talking about is in reality will be a half assed product just like Minecraft was for several months (with buy before finished product at reduced price).

You say you don't care about statistics and hackers. What guarantee that you will care after we bought your final product? Nothing.

You probably just gonna miss-talk again and send ppl to "fap or whatever" which is so immature and unprofessional. You will be like "Hey the server is yours. Ban hackers yourself"

The speed of any decent content coming out is khm.. pathetic. You could say "hurr-durr there's so much new stuff in the standalone version".

Rly? Put it out in the Mod so we can TEST it so we don't get another junk.

Looking back how long it took for you to even fix the artifact bug makes my head hurt... obviously your internal testing is bad. that won't work. DayZ currently has 1kk+ playerbase. Want to test something before you implement it to standalone? LET, US, TEST, IT.

I'm sure some blind fanboy will be flaming me. All prepared! Have flame-jacket :)

But save this topics link into your favorites... and when the game is released. You can read it back so you know i was right :)

[dallas 5195]

I'm what Mark Zuckerberg calls a new school or 2.0 gamer and I firmly believe purchasing a game from my hardearned income, makes me entitled to a minimum 35% of a game developer's soul. Also we were promised a hat shop.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Dallas

[islandjack1 8]

I just enjoy the game. If I have to start over, so be it. There is no winning or losing, so who cares?

If it was hacked every time I played, then I would wait for the standalone. 'til then, I'll be running around saying Giggity.

Pins and needles for the standalone to come out and will buy it asap.

Just have fun with it.

[gambles 234]

*shrug*

They just want me to make a good game.

If I were them, I would prefer that I wasn't such a cowboy - but I'm kinda a package deal.

50 bucks says you just typed that while wearing the badass shades you have in your avatar hahaha. Good on you though, Rocket. Although I may not always agree with all decisions made with this game, there is no denying that this is a game I have grown to love. Cowboy up!

[Tarkastio 38]

for some odd reason i already see that on day1 of the standalone. the game will have the same hackers with the same amount as in the alpha. Same game engine, same anti-hacker system, and sadly same hypocrite developer.

(I`m sorry, but at this time I`m pretty sure humans do not have the ability to see the future. If you have this ability, please go see a mental institute. Please show a quote or something that we are using the same anti-hack system and the same game engine? If you give me links, I will hold you under more serious consideration, instead of a ill-informed attempt at trolling.)

"you say that "what you do is insane, that you make a full game in just a few months" <-- In reality you just use the same code you built already (on Bohemias engine). almost a copy+paste with a "little" work to fit in. So tha "full game in few moths" you're talking about is in reality will be a half assed product just like Minecraft was for several months (with buy before finished product at reduced price).

(Again, links. Also, the Minecraft way worked, and is actually a decent way to purchase a game.)

You say you don't care about statistics and hackers. What guarantee that you will care after we bought your final product? Nothing.

(This is the only part of your post that makes any legit sense whatsoever, and even then how could there be a way to make him continue making content? There is no legal way to do so.)

You probably just gonna miss-talk again and send ppl to "fap or whatever" which is so immature and unprofessional. You will be like "Hey the server is yours. Ban hackers yourself"

(Your insults are putting you on the same level as him, just to let you know. :) )

The speed of any decent content coming out is khm.. pathetic. You could say "hurr-durr there's so much new stuff in the standalone version".

(He could say that, we`ll know if it is true or not soon enough.)

Rly? Put it out in the Mod so we can TEST it so we don't get another junk.

(Alright, so your argument is going from "You are incapable of making the game." to "You have the wrong testers, let ME test your game!")

Looking back how long it took for you to even fix the artifact bug makes my head hurt... obviously your internal testing is bad. that won't work. DayZ currently has 1kk+ playerbase. Want to test something before you implement it to standalone? LET, US, TEST, IT.

(Again. You go from "You are incapable." to "Let me play your game!")

I'm sure some blind fanboy will be flaming me. All prepared! Have flame-jacket :)

(I`m neither a blind fanboy nor flaming you. I`m trying to have a mature and logical discussion over your post.)

But save this topics link into your favorites... and when the game is released. You can read it back so you know i was right :)

(We will both have to wait and see how this turns out. :) )

I went through this part by part. My thoughts in blue.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Tarkastio

[septuscap 42]

Do you think they all quit mainly because of hacking? Or bugs? Boredom? Of they have just moved on to the next game?

There's rarely one cause for anything really, and you listed a few of the factors. A lot of it had to do with DayZ being the only sandbox available. Like early MMO's, when you're the only game on the block you don't have to offer much.

Moving to the next game was NOT the chief reason though. Yes Guildwars2 came out, but most people I know play multiple games, and I see many people playing OLDER games instead of DayZ. You can only offer a broken, buggy, hacked game with no actual content besides hunger/thirst for so long before people move on. Boredom, frustration, better alternatives, whatever you want to call it.

The PvP was decent but the context rarely changed (I would argue making vehicles rare had a lot to do with this, but that alone would only have added so much). The goals were pretty weak (drop tent, drive vehicle around, that's it?). The features were pretty poorly implemented (server hopping, combat logging, humanity farming, etc). The pace of new content was extremely slow, bordering on non-existent (oh we removed pistols on spawn, we changed cz spawn rates, we removed bandit skins, we added bandit skins -- when the fuck will a new feature ever be implemented? My bet is on never).

And the level of polish of ArmA, the underlying game, gave little confidence for the standalone, and made for a hugely frustrating DayZ experience. It's easy to overlook killing a buddy by walking into him, getting killed by trees/rocks/doors/etc, having to work around a shitty interface for loot, doors, doorWAYS, ladders, etc, hacks, etc. But eventually you just say fuck it.

Edited September 21, 2012 by SeptusCap

[Maniacmike (DayZ) 24]

Some questions:

• Will I be a better developer if I have 300,000,000 dollars?
  
  • So far the main change in my life is that now I can buy as many brand new DC sneakers as I want. There is only so many DC sneakers a man can have.
    
  • Additionally, I no longer eat pringles or drink pepsi, as I am more health conscious, so there is that reduced expense.
    

  [*]Why does it matter to you how many people play it?

  • This mod was made for 5 people... my friends... and me to play
    
  • When I made it I always thought that we would end up with 2 or 3 fifty slot servers running, ideally one in the US, one in europe, and one in Australasia
    

Do you guys really want me to start making decisions, and reacting based on what is needed to make lots of people play? Do you really think those decisions will lead to a better game? I don't, which is why I don't care about the statistics now... the point has been proven. I must stay the course and be the one person who no matter what happens, does not get distracted and keep that original vision in front of us. If I don't do that, then nobody will. If I loose sight of that and start going off and chasing money or ego... I could quite likely get them in the current situation - but the end result will be yet another disappointment.

This started as an experiment and me saying "to hell with the rulebook" on game development and just being myself, being honest, and letting people see what happens - the ups and the downs. There have been plenty of fuckups and I have said and done things that I shouldn't, but I'm not pretending to be anything I am simply just being myself, a human being, and trying to make a good game by following my own judgement. That judgement has got me this far, so I figure I am going to keep doing that.

My focus is to develop the standalone, and let the community be involved completely in the development of the mod - use the mod as a fusion between community and me until the standalone is available (maybe even after it) and the fusion can happen there (uber synergy™). Sure, I'd love to be uber rich, with a yellow lambo, sitting on "the daily show" crackin' jokes with my man Jon Stewart but...

I'm in this position now, to make a damn game!

So, please! Enough with the statistics! Enough trying to do my strategy, to solve the unsolvable. The game is pissing you off, don't play it. Or better yet - check out the ArmA2 campaign. I don't like the campaign, but I hardly ever play single player games so what the fuck would I know. Download the ACE mod, buy KSP, buy FTL, fap for a while... What. Ever. But if you're going to be here on the forums I'd rather that we focus on the achievable and not on how popular the mod is or could be. Because I don't think popular necessarily equals awesome, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

It's amazing u even comment back dude.

If I was you I would just keep doing what ya doing.

Fucking great job on an epic game for epic people ;)

I luv the ideas u have cuz there outside the box.

[Banicks 55]

There is no need to be concerned re: balance and such. Stand-alone will have it's own alpha state in which balance will be fiddled with no doubt.

Remain calm, keep stroking the furry wall, and wait for stand alone.

I personally can't believe that games like WarZ and DayZ are pushing for retail within a few months. It is shocking to me from my past experience in software development alone, barely near game development.

The masses of statistics that you blokes are claiming won't buy the stand alone, eh I don't think that is the case at all, they know little can be done about the mod hackers. They also know to expect a more polished experience and minimal hacking come stand alone. OP and others say the masses won't but ilike it's a threat, but in reality they will buy it. There are very few decent PC games lately, fewer cover zombie and survivalism, fewer attempt to create an all encompassing reality experience - namely DayZ.

It will be successful because it is basically innovative, something rare these days if you look at hollywood, and sequel after sequel of game development.

PS. I've never even seen another lead developer like Rocket post in the games own forums - eg. ghost recon, borderlands 2, so on and other games. But for Dayz this is something I've seen him and his fellow developers and team do time and time again. Communication alone is clear to me that they do listen, and it will show in the end product.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Banicks

[ACow 102]

ensuring as many people as possible buy this game, is because more customers means a better game. doesn't it?

I think a very strong case can be made that this simply isn't true.

I know, I know! All our lives we're told popularity of a game is the epitome of good, so even suggesting that it might be bad (or at least not necessarily good) throws people.

But really, all one needs for this game is a handful of populated servers distributed around the globe, and you're basically set. You need enough popularity to get it going and keep it going, but popularity above that level doesn't necessarily give any benefit.

Now if you actually have to change the game, or make concessions in order to make it "popular", or sell 1,000,000 copies vs 100,000, then for those people who actually liked the game that was designed and sold 100,000, popularity is actually an actively bad thing. And if the game companies won't take you on, or your idea, because your awesome game is only a 100,000 game rather than a 1,000,000, well, that's too bad. It never gets made.

But if you like that kind of game, then the only way to get it made it to stick to your guns, and just say "fuck it". And I believe rocket did. And he's done enough to now get the game he wants preduced. And at the end, he might not have 1,000,000 copies sold. He might have 100,000, which is nothing to sniff at. But it'll be a game that is different at last, thank god. And for those of us who are almost violently ill at the prospect at the concessions that need to be made to produce another popular game, we'll be greatful, and we'll enjoy playing it.

So Rocket, stick to your guns. Work on the stand alone. Create the game you had in mind. If it gets popular, all good. If its just mildly so, it doesn't matter. Because it'll be DayZ.

I don't know about everyone else, but if its not popular, it'll still be the game I wanted to play. I imagine I won't have trouble finding a server with others who feel the same.

Edited September 21, 2012 by ACow

[jaws4096 77]

@rocket

i hear what you say about not being a breadhead. i think that's honourable, and i believe you too. but i think the OP wasn't really worrying about your financial health - to me, the point of the post, about ensuring as many people as possible buy this game, is because more customers means a better game. doesn't it?

surely if the game is popular, that means more players on the servers, and this game (to me) is all about the players. as you say, it's an openworld game - the players, and their interactions, create the narrative. surely it follows that more players=better game.

i don't think anyone's suggesting dumbing the game down for the sake of popularity, but i think there's a genuine concern that if too many are leaving the game, or becoming disillusioned, then that could impact on the final product - not because the game you build will be worse, but because the game is simply going to be better with more players.

personally, i'm still happy to play as it is. but in a couple more months i think the constant loss of my best kit to hackers will likely have me either running around with nothing more than a can of beans and the first rifle i find, or logging out for good until standalone rolls by. that's not a complaint - i've had more than my money's worth from arma by playing dayz already!

Thanks for saying what I was trying to say, better than I said it!

[nic0 14]

I think a very strong case can be made that this simply isn't true.

I know, I know! All our lives we're told popularity of a game is the epitome of good, so even suggesting that it might be bad (or at least not necessarily good) throws people.

But really, all one needs for this game is a handful of populated servers distributed around the globe, and you're basically set. You need enough popularity to get it going and keep it going, but popularity above that level doesn't necessarily give any benefit.

sorry i snipped a bit out of your quote...

i think you're absolutely right, that popularity doesn't necessarily mean a good/better game but...and it's a huge "but"...this doesn't apply to online games.

online games live and die by their players commitment and engagement with the game. and by their numbers.

this is true for MMOs like WoW, which is so filled with NPCs and other content that you can basically play it solo. because playing it solo just feels empty and dead, and especially so when you need to group or want to PvP.

this is true even more so for competitive games, like battlefield or CS, where the content is mostly created by the interactions of players fighting each other.

and this is true 10000% percent for dayz wherein, as rocket states even in this thread, the game is completely open, and without rules or story, and where the players make their own story.

the more niche dayz is, the fewer players and servers there are, the lower the server populations, the worse this game will be. that's simply to state a fact.

so we need balance. the game has to be find a sweetspot between featuring fun gameplay, and hardcore gameplay, and attracting enough dedicated players who find the game *fun*, to keep the spirit of this thing fully alive.

rocket may not be interested in money, or sales just for the sake of it, but he *must* surely be interested in making this game as popular as it possibly can be, because that's the main thing that will keep the game what it is - a large, diverse, and dedicated player community.

[Kurian 4]

There's rarely one cause for anything really, and you listed a few of the factors. A lot of it had to do with DayZ being the only sandbox available. Like early MMO's, when you're the only game on the block you don't have to offer much.

Moving to the next game was NOT the chief reason though. Yes Guildwars2 came out, but most people I know play multiple games, and I see many people playing OLDER games instead of DayZ. You can only offer a broken, buggy, hacked game with no actual content besides hunger/thirst for so long before people move on. Boredom, frustration, better alternatives, whatever you want to call it.

The PvP was decent but the context rarely changed (I would argue making vehicles rare had a lot to do with this, but that alone would only have added so much). The goals were pretty weak (drop tent, drive vehicle around, that's it?). The features were pretty poorly implemented (server hopping, combat logging, humanity farming, etc). The pace of new content was extremely slow, bordering on non-existent (oh we removed pistols on spawn, we changed cz spawn rates, we removed bandit skins, we added bandit skins -- when the fuck will a new feature ever be implemented? My bet is on never).

And the level of polish of ArmA, the underlying game, gave little confidence for the standalone, and made for a hugely frustrating DayZ experience. It's easy to overlook killing a buddy by walking into him, getting killed by trees/rocks/doors/etc, having to work around a shitty interface for loot, doors, doorWAYS, ladders, etc, hacks, etc. But eventually you just say fuck it.

This.

[jblackrupert 308]

*shrug*

They just want me to make a good game.

If I were them, I would prefer that I wasn't such a cowboy - but I'm kinda a package deal.

Once upon a time, many many many moons ago EA would have hired you for that trait alone.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I'm glad to see a certain someone isn't selling out.

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

So, in summary - I don't think you need to worry about me getting enough money. I'm pretty sure I am going to be totally fine, in all honestly I pretty much am anyway. And if I ever feel ripped off I'll do the usual dicky thing of doing some stupid expose story about how hard it is not getting more rich when you're already rich.

How Hacking Costs Rocket (i.e. Bohemia) Money, and why that doesn't matter

Lend me A tenner, then. :P