Hosting bubble pop?

[thermonuke1@gmail.com 110]

Noticed nearly every hosting company is cutting their prices or offering weekend deals.

Are we seeing the decline of the server count?

Thought and opinions?

[Patient Zer0 39]

All jokes aside about asian girls all looking the same, is that the same girl on the subway in Gangham Style?

On topic: Tons of guilds/squads/groups have gotten sick of DayZ and shuttered their servers, and the servers that are still running are a lot more empty than they used to be. The hosts are trying to make up the missing revenue from all the servers that have shut down.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Patient Zer0

[urbanfox 116]

Noticed nearly every hosting company is cutting their prices or offering weekend deals.

Are we seeing the decline of the server count?

Thought and opinions?

No, hosts across the board seem to be requesting new instance ID's on new servers as normal, which also doesn't account for the very recent boon of private servers from GSP's.

The market is just getting more competitive. It's not like it was even a few months ago when the majority of servers were hosted just by the major players (Vilayer, HFB, etc). There are a lot more start-up GSP's now offering just DayZ hosting. The market is flooded with hosts, so it does nothing but actually help the consumer.

[ersan 219]

We started a week ago and business is going pretty well for us, thought I'd weigh in:

I think the biggest contribution to the price drops (besides what urbanfox has said about the market being more competitive), and I know this is really depressing, is that there are significantly less users playing DayZ and significantly more servers, so the servers sit empty the majority of the time allowing hosts to oversell more without any adverse effects on other customers. For instance one of our servers is at what we consider to be capacity but its max CPU usage is only 35%, a couple months ago it would have been pegged.

Edited September 16, 2012 by ersan191

[urbanfox 116]

We started a week ago and business is going pretty well for us, thought I'd weigh in:

I think the biggest contribution to the price drops (besides what urbanfox has said about the market being more competitive), and I know this is really depressing, is that there are significantly less users playing DayZ and significantly more servers, so the servers sit empty the majority of the time allowing hosts to oversell more without any adverse effects on other customers. For instance one of our servers is at what we consider to be capacity but its max CPU usage is only 35%, a couple months ago it would have been pegged.

I don't know who you are, so I'm not adding nor excluding you from this group because I just don't know (and I wouldn't say it on the forums), but the majority of these hosts have been overselling their servers from the start. I can confirm new physical servers are being added constantly, though, so there has to be some increase in customer base (for players who want servers, not in terms of the DayZ player population).

The majority of these GSP's are just greedy assholes. In fact, it got so bad, that I've literally had to cancel orders and tell them "No, we aren't going to allow you to run that many instances on your server. You're overselling your servers, ripping off the customer base, and making DayZ look bad". < Had MANY of these conversations.

**AGAIN, that post is not directed @ ersan191. I don't know him, his company, nor recall seeing any of his orders. I neither slam nor endorse him or his company.

EDIT: A SEVERE WARNING TO ALL GSP's: DON'T QUOTE ME, LIKE MY POST, OR TRY TO COME OFF IN THIS THREAD LIKE YOU DON'T OVERSELL IF YOU DO ACTUALLY OVERSELL. I WILL CALL YOUR HYPOCRITICAL ASS OUT. < FAIR WARNING

Edited September 16, 2012 by urbanfox

[ersan 219]

I would expect hosts to oversell, though I guess 'overselling' is open to interpretation. I just meant that hosts can oversell MORE now because a lot of servers are sitting empty. We will sell as much as the server can handle, if any of our customers complain about lag (which they never have, and never will - I monitor the servers very closely) we will obviously not sell any more slots on the server and get it back up to speed - we can also easily move them to another server in the pool in a couple seconds - I don't see why other hosts wouldn't do the same.

Right now, for us, we are able to put between 12 and 16 customers on a dual xeon e5-2620 (12 cores) without any issues. I guarantee you we're the only ones who will ever be honest about that figure though... I will say that hosting more than 40 slots is just asinine - even on the 3.9GHz i7-2700K I have at home it runs terribly (3-4FPS) past 45 players.

If 'overselling' means that a server can't run at acceptable speeds with every single server on it completely full, I think that's a bit of an unreasonable requirement.

I'm curious, what constitutes overselling in your book?

Edited September 16, 2012 by ersan191

[Tyler Salwierz 16]

I would expect hosts to oversell, though I guess 'overselling' is open to interpretation. I just meant that hosts can oversell MORE now because a lot of servers are sitting empty. We will sell as much as the server can handle, if any of our customers complain about lag (which they never have, and never will - I monitor the servers very closely) we will obviously not sell any more slots on the server and get it back up to speed - we can also easily move them to another server in the pool in a couple seconds - I don't see why other hosts wouldn't do the same.

Right now, for us, we are able to put between 12 and 16 customers on a dual xeon e5-2620 (12 cores) without any issues. I guarantee you we're the only ones who will ever be honest about that figure though... I will say that hosting more than 40 slots is just asinine - even on the 3.9GHz i7-2700K I have at home it runs terribly (3-4FPS) past 45 players.

If 'overselling' means that a server can't run at acceptable speeds with every single server on it completely full, I think that's a bit of an unreasonable requirement.

I'm curious, what constitutes overselling in your book?

What are you going to do if those servers start getting popular? Tell your clients tough luck? That E5-2620 is not more powerful then a E3-1230 V2, meaning even with dual CPU's you will only be able to host at most ten forty slot servers. Putting sixteen DayZ servers on it is insane. The only way that would be able to work out is if you had a dedicated IP per dayz server with IP pooling, but even then it's not ethical as you are essentially selling a service that your clients will only be able to use provided the other servers are empty.

Originally, when I started offering DayZ my budget line was setup with one thread per server - it was not enough. Six servers on the E3-1230 V2 had problems. Five is OK if you only host 40 slot servers and allow Windows to manage the threading but even then it can get iffy. So I ultimately ended up with four servers a node which works out perfectly.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business or anything like that, but sixteen on that CPU - even in a dual CPU setting - is a disaster waiting to happen.

[dayzho 6]

While we don't have a nice WHMCS or TCAdmin system, we do try to counter that with excellent customer support, low prices, and the guarantee that every server we host has one core dedicated to it (no exceptions).

Edited September 16, 2012 by DayZHostOne

[ersan 219]

What are you going to do if those servers start getting popular? Tell your clients tough luck? That E5-2620 is not more powerful then a E3-1230 V2, meaning even with dual CPU's you will only be able to host at most ten forty slot servers. Putting sixteen DayZ servers on it is insane. The only way that would be able to work out is if you had a dedicated IP per dayz server with IP pooling, but even then it's not ethical as you are essentially selling a service that your clients will only be able to use provided the other servers are empty.

Originally, when I started offering DayZ my budget line was setup with one thread per server - it was not enough. Six servers on the E3-1230 V2 had problems. Five is OK if you only host 40 slot servers and allow Windows to manage the threading but even then it can get iffy. So I ultimately ended up with four servers a node which works out perfectly.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business or anything like that, but sixteen on that CPU - even in a dual CPU setting - is a disaster waiting to happen.

I already said what I would do if the servers got too popular... The E3-1230 is a quad core not a hexa-core and obviously can't handle more servers than an E5-2620 - Larger yes, more no... If you actually saw our metrics you'd see plenty of idle cores even at 16 customers. Hyperthreading is absolutely useless for DayZ and it actually runs better with it turned off, I don't know why you thought otherwise. The larger a server's capacity is the more you can get away with overselling... If you put 5 gameservers on a single E3-1230 that's literally exactly the same as us putting 15 on a dual xeon e5-2620 (1.25 per core). And we only host 40 slot servers so by your own admission this should be perfectly acceptable...

I haven't the slightest idea what you're on about with dedicated IP's and IP Pooling - seems like it might be a tangent related to server migration but wholly irrelevant to performance.

Is it 'unethical' for comcast to offer 50mbit internet to 1000 customers when they only pay for 1gbit of bandwidth? I think a 9-45% oversell (we can EASILY run 11 full servers on a machine) that has NO ADVERSE IMPACT ON ANY CUSTOMERS is a lot more 'ethical' than the 500% oversell most places can happily get away with.

I also don't have the stone-age crap tcadmin or a manual setup system at my disposal like the other hosts. I built a platform from the ground up that lets me easily monitor metrics and migrate customers at will. Looking at the stats pane and seeing 30 players across 11 servers and 12% CPU usage during peak hours might make you think overselling might not be such a terrible idea. I also run a very successful VPS hosting company and a seedbox company, overselling is in their DNA and we make damn sure we don't oversell to the point that it affects our customers. That's what being a good host is, if you can't do that properly you will never be successful, and if you're successful and telling everyone you're not overselling then you're just lying.

Edited September 16, 2012 by ersan191

[mgsloth 12]

I just went to your website, (dayz.st) using firefox (latest) and it seems you have issues.. javascript sidebar does not allow you to scroll to the bottom of your page.

are you aware of this? surely, being a "good host" you know that ?

[thesidetalker (DayZ) 7]

I just went to your website, (dayz.st) using firefox (latest) and it seems you have issues.. javascript sidebar does not allow you to scroll to the bottom of your page.

are you aware of this? surely, being a "good host" you know that ?

OOOOOO you got him good!!one

Seriously though? You should also try using the (latest) monitor. Increase your resolution... works fine, chief.

[mgsloth 12]

OOOOOO you got him good!!one

ooooooooohhhhh..... 12?

My point was to help him, nothing more , your point is?

I have a HD Monitor and my resolution is just fine.

He can run a script that will auto adjust resolution for users. chief

Seriously though? You should also try using the (latest) monitor. Increase your resolution... works fine, chief.

[mgsloth 12]

And just a side note , side talk ... calm down a bit, I am not so sure why you pre-pubes are always so quick to jump in and suck on your friends nipples..

you can't expect to have every web user adjust their resolution or settings for each website, now can you?

If you can't take constructive criticism then how are you going to learn anything at all? Take the advice, and fix it. or leave it.. it's up to you but it really does have issue.

[Tyler Salwierz 16]

I already said what I would do if the servers got too popular... The E3-1230 is a quad core not a hexa-core and obviously can't handle more servers than an E5-2620 - Larger yes, more no... If you actually saw our metrics you'd see plenty of idle cores even at 16 customers. Hyperthreading is absolutely useless for DayZ and it actually runs better with it turned off, I don't know why you thought otherwise. The larger a server's capacity is the more you can get away with overselling... If you put 5 gameservers on a single E3-1230 that's literally exactly the same as us putting 15 on a dual xeon e5-2620 (1.25 per core). And we only host 40 slot servers so by your own admission this should be perfectly acceptable...

I haven't the slightest idea what you're on about with dedicated IP's and IP Pooling - seems like it might be a tangent related to server migration but wholly irrelevant to performance.

Is it 'unethical' for comcast to offer 50mbit internet to 1000 customers when they only pay for 1gbit of bandwidth? I think a 9-45% oversell (we can EASILY run 11 full servers on a machine) that has NO ADVERSE IMPACT ON ANY CUSTOMERS is a lot more 'ethical' than the 500% oversell most places can happily get away with.

I also don't have the stone-age crap tcadmin or a manual setup system at my disposal like the other hosts. I built a platform from the ground up that lets me easily monitor metrics and migrate customers at will. Looking at the stats pane and seeing 30 players across 11 servers and 12% CPU usage during peak hours might make you think overselling might not be such a terrible idea. I also run a very successful VPS hosting company and a seedbox company, overselling is in their DNA and we make damn sure we don't oversell to the point that it affects our customers. That's what being a good host is, if you can't do that properly you will never be successful, and if you're successful and telling everyone you're not overselling then you're just lying.

Obviously the E3-1230 V2 is a quad core. Realistically though, that E5-2620 is going to only be able to handle 4-5 servers with a reasonable level of performance if those servers are full when you take into account the lower clock speed. There is a huge gap between 2Ghz and 3.3Ghz when it comes to per-thread performance, even with the architectural differences.

I don't care much for your metrics. Let me know how it performs when all of those servers have 40 players at the same time on every server on the node.

Anyway, I'm not here to get into an argument. Also - if you don't have IP Pooling setup then I pity your clients as when you finally start having issues with performance and decide to "easily move them to another server in the pool in a couple seconds" as that means a IP change and a InstanceID change. - not very cool at all.

[ersan 219]

I just went to your website, (dayz.st) using firefox (latest) and it seems you have issues.. javascript sidebar does not allow you to scroll to the bottom of your page.

are you aware of this? surely, being a "good host" you know that ?

Despite the snide remarks I appreciate you reporting the issue and I fixed it so that the number of news posts displayed is related to your monitor's vertical resolution and it should work properly at anything over 720p. If you're under 720p then you are doing it wrong.

Obviously the E3-1230 V2 is a quad core. Realistically though, that E5-2620 is going to only be able to handle 4-5 servers with a reasonable level of performance if those servers are full when you take into account the lower clock speed. There is a huge gap between 2Ghz and 3.3Ghz when it comes to per-thread performance, even with the architectural differences.

I don't care much for your metrics. Let me know how it performs when all of those servers have 40 players at the same time on every server on the node. Being prepared for scenarios that don't exist is not a good business model.

Anyway, I'm not here to get into an argument. Also - if you don't have IP Pooling setup then I pity your clients as when you finally start having issues with performance and decide to "easily move them to another server in the pool in a couple seconds" as that means a IP change and a InstanceID change. - not very cool at all.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record... having one core that operates at a higher frequency does NOT allow you to put more gameservers on one CPU, it simply allows more players per gameserver. 'Realistically' the dual e5-2620 servers we use are fully capable of handling 11 full 40-slot servers at any given time, as we have tested.

Let me know if you ever see 16 servers on one machine at 40 players, hell let me know if you ever see more than 100 players between all 16 servers - I will eat my own face. By your logic the datacenter that sells us our servers should only offer 5mbit because omg what if every single server on their network decides to use 1gbit all at the same time. Or your cellphone provider should only offer 3 seconds of talk time a month because what if everyone on their network decides to make a phone call at exactly the same time? Overselling drives the entire internet services industry, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it when done properly. Bury your head in the sand if you want but that's life.

We have other ways around live migration at the router level (think port forwarding) that don't involve 'IP Pooling' which is just a meaningless buzzword anyway.

Anyway having any sort of transparency in how things operate usually makes people irate, so I'll go back to keeping quiet - you guys feel free to enjoy Vilayer or HFB with 50 servers per node or whatever, what you don't know can't hurt you right?

Edited September 17, 2012 by ersan191

[mgsloth 12]

Despite the snide remarks I appreciate you reporting the issue and I fixed it so that the number of news posts displayed is related to your monitor's vertical resolution and it should work properly at anything over 720p. If you're under 720p then you are doing it wrong.

Again.. got to get that tit out of your mouth and less assuming.. I am in a computer lab.. several monitors.. build your website for your CUSTOMERS.. not you and your friends.

and that will be the last remark I make to "help" you, snide or not.

just because someone may offer a suggestion, doesn't always mean it is "snide", the "good host" remark was a quote by you, and just used in a different context that you have proven true. stop bieng so full of yourself.

[mgsloth 12]

hell let me know if you ever see more than 100 players between all 16 servers - I will eat my own face

And another thing, are you seriously saying that you have NEVER seen 100 players spread out over 16 servers on the same machine? If it were possible... i think you better start eating..

unless... I am just reading this wrong? Maybe you have ran 16 servers on one machine and the lag was so bad people didn't stay on long enough to reach 100?

please explain this one (popcorn)

[anthony_henson2003@yahoo.com 33]

Anyway having any sort of transparency in how things operate usually makes people irate, so I'll go back to keeping quiet - you guys feel free to enjoy Vilayer or HFB with 50 servers per node or whatever, what you don't know can't hurt you right?

Was going to keep out of this till we were brought into this. We run 5 servers per Dual L5420 and with all servers maxed out the cpu's never have a single core maxed out we used to run 6 per box back when dayz was really popular and we were getting 50+ orders a day but we only did that because we could not have servers racked fast enough to keep up with the amount of orders. We have been transparent about how many we host since day one when we were one of the 3 hosts out there.

[ersan 219]

I really don't know your specifics or whether that is the truth, and unfortunately nobody has any way of knowing for sure - I was simply throwing names out there and as far as I know you and Vilayer are the top two at the moment. Didn't mean anything personal by it, my apologies.

In any case this thread seems to have attracted a DDoS attack on our servers which I've had to deal with, so I'm just going to stay out of it. If any host has performance issues I'm sure customers will complain about them and nobody will sign up. Such is the way of the free market.

Edited September 16, 2012 by ersan191

[urbanfox 116]

I would expect hosts to oversell, though I guess 'overselling' is open to interpretation. I just meant that hosts can oversell MORE now because a lot of servers are sitting empty. We will sell as much as the server can handle, if any of our customers complain about lag (which they never have, and never will - I monitor the servers very closely) we will obviously not sell any more slots on the server and get it back up to speed - we can also easily move them to another server in the pool in a couple seconds - I don't see why other hosts wouldn't do the same.

Right now, for us, we are able to put between 12 and 16 customers on a dual xeon e5-2620 (12 cores) without any issues. I guarantee you we're the only ones who will ever be honest about that figure though... I will say that hosting more than 40 slots is just asinine - even on the 3.9GHz i7-2700K I have at home it runs terribly (3-4FPS) past 45 players.

If 'overselling' means that a server can't run at acceptable speeds with every single server on it completely full, I think that's a bit of an unreasonable requirement.

I'm curious, what constitutes overselling in your book?

If that's what you are doing, putting 12-16 40-slot customers on a Xeon E5-2620, then that's not overselling in my book and you are one of the VERY few hosts who almost has a 1:1 ratio of instances vs. CPU cores (HT-threads not counted).

**I HAVE NOT VERIFIED WHAT ERSAN191 HAS SAID. I NEITHER ENDORSE NOR SLAM HIM OR HIS COMPANY***

If you want an example of overselling, please see below.

What are you going to do if those servers start getting popular? Tell your clients tough luck? That E5-2620 is not more powerful then a E3-1230 V2, meaning even with dual CPU's you will only be able to host at most ten forty slot servers. Putting sixteen DayZ servers on it is insane. The only way that would be able to work out is if you had a dedicated IP per dayz server with IP pooling, but even then it's not ethical as you are essentially selling a service that your clients will only be able to use provided the other servers are empty.

Originally, when I started offering DayZ my budget line was setup with one thread per server - it was not enough. Six servers on the E3-1230 V2 had problems. Five is OK if you only host 40 slot servers and allow Windows to manage the threading but even then it can get iffy. So I ultimately ended up with four servers a node which works out perfectly.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business or anything like that, but sixteen on that CPU - even in a dual CPU setting - is a disaster waiting to happen.

I REALLY can't believe you just liked my post when I clearly said the following:

EDIT: A SEVERE WARNING TO ALL GSP's: DON'T QUOTE ME, LIKE MY POST, OR TRY TO COME OFF IN THIS THREAD LIKE YOU DON'T OVERSELL IF YOU DO ACTUALLY OVERSELL. I WILL CALL YOUR HYPOCRITICAL ASS OUT. < FAIR WARNING

Am I in the twighlight zone? Do you not see the color red?

Let's use our time machine and go back to August 2nd on a support ticket...

1) Complained that we cancelled an order that was trying to oversell your server

2) Argued with us that an E3-1230 was, and I quote here: "It's actually an eight core CPU" (NO, it's not. HT threads don't count and there is a reason the E3-1230 is what Intel calls a "quad-core")

3) After being proved wrong, then argued that eight instances can run fine on an E3-1230 and that it's OK because it's your "budget line" of servers

4) After being told firmly "no" again, then said (direct quote here): "Again with 40 slots on a E3-1230 V2, it hardly uses any CPU - around half a core" (UGHH NO...)

5) You then argued that you had tested this yourself and questioned if we knew what we were even talking about

You are a shitty host Tyler.

Edited September 16, 2012 by urbanfox

[DrainBamaged 38]

If that's what you are doing, putting 12-16 40-slot customers on a Xeon E5-2620, then that's not overselling in my book and you are one of the VERY few hosts who almost has a 1:1 ratio of instances vs. CPU cores (HT-threads not counted).

**I HAVE NOT VERIFIED WHAT ERSAN191 HAS SAID. I NEITHER ENDORSE NOR SLAM HIM OR HIS COMPANY***

If you want an example of overselling, please see below.

I REALLY can't believe you just liked my post when I clearly said the following:

Am I in the twighlight zone? Do you not see the color red?

Let's use our time machine and go back to August 2nd on a support ticket...

1) Complained that we cancelled an order that was trying to oversell your server

2) Argued with us that an E3-1230 was, and I quote here: "It's actually an eight core CPU" (NO, it's not. HT threads don't count and there is a reason the E3-1230 is what Intel calls a "quad-core")

3) After being proved wrong, then argued that eight instances can run fine on an E3-1230 and that it's OK because it's your "budget line" of servers

4) After being told firmly "no" again, then said (direct quote here): "Again with 40 slots on a E3-1230 V2, it hardly uses any CPU - around half a core" (UGHH NO...)

5) You then argued that you had tested this yourself and questioned if we knew what we were even talking about

You are a shitty host Tyler.

UrbanFox ... If I wasn't an old, fat, bald, retired, quadriplegic man I'd ask to have your children. You are a sexy beast.

[DrainBamaged 38]

If that's what you are doing, putting 12-16 40-slot customers on a Xeon E5-2620, then that's not overselling in my book and you are one of the VERY few hosts who almost has a 1:1 ratio of instances vs. CPU cores (HT-threads not counted).

**I HAVE NOT VERIFIED WHAT ERSAN191 HAS SAID. I NEITHER ENDORSE NOR SLAM HIM OR HIS COMPANY***

If you want an example of overselling, please see below.

I REALLY can't believe you just liked my post when I clearly said the following:

Am I in the twighlight zone? Do you not see the color red?

Let's use our time machine and go back to August 2nd on a support ticket...

1) Complained that we cancelled an order that was trying to oversell your server

2) Argued with us that an E3-1230 was, and I quote here: "It's actually an eight core CPU" (NO, it's not. HT threads don't count and there is a reason the E3-1230 is what Intel calls a "quad-core")

3) After being proved wrong, then argued that eight instances can run fine on an E3-1230 and that it's OK because it's your "budget line" of servers

4) After being told firmly "no" again, then said (direct quote here): "Again with 40 slots on a E3-1230 V2, it hardly uses any CPU - around half a core" (UGHH NO...)

5) You then argued that you had tested this yourself and questioned if we knew what we were even talking about

You are a shitty host Tyler.

UrbanFox ... If I wasn't an old, fat, bald, retired, quadriplegic man I'd ask to have your children. You are a sexy beast.

[kainelderan 10]

As one of Ersan's customers, I will tell you for a fact that his services have been outstanding so far for a new startup. They have been very quick to respond to any issues we have had, which has been pretty far and few between minus that I'm fairly new to running a Dayz private hive server. We have had no lag whatsoever and until this DoS attack we've had pretty much no crashing. With how well they have responded to our questions / issues I will say they are highly recommended.

[urbanfox 116]

UrbanFox ... If I wasn't an old, fat, bald, retired, quadriplegic man I'd ask to have your children. You are a sexy beast.

If I wasn't a straight married man I'd consider it. Flattery is always appreciated though, so you can have my beans.

Edited September 16, 2012 by urbanfox

[mgsloth 12]

If I wasn't a straight married man I'd consider it. Flattery is always appreciated though, so you can have my beans.

LMAO....