Does sniping need a nerf?

[Just a Goat 25]

If you have played DayZ for even a few days, I am sure you've been the victim of a sniper at least once. But, how powerful is sniping compared to normal assault weapons such as the M4A1? I am going to keep my criticism out of this discussion, but what do you guys think. Should sniping be nerfed in stand alone or perhaps even buffed?

Please don't flame or leave one word answers.

Carrying a sniper rifle is a severe penalty in terms of either weapons capability or pack space. People taking potshots at people on the beach can't just waltz around the hills freely doing whatever they want; it's difficult and dangerous.

Nothing about it needs "nerfed", people simply need to get some common sense and stop playing like fools.

Sadly, if u got shoot in the leg by either a 5.56, 7.62 or .50 it would most likely sever the main artery and you will bleed out in a couple of seconds due to the fact that most smal cal munitions are full metal jackets. This mean that they are instable and will spin and bounce around in you body. A bullet that hitts you in the gut might come out from your shoulder. And getting shoot in the arm with those calibers will also likely ripp your arm off. All hits can cause massive internal bleeding and death. Furthermore upon inpact due to the speed of the bullet it will sort of explode and kill the tissue around the wound and cause even more damage.

This is pretty much nonsense.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Uncle Scrotor

[BlksnshN 127]

Been playing the Mod for 1 month now. I have been sniped a total of two times. Guess who's fault each death was? I'll give you a hint, both times I was running through an open field towards a high value loot area.

[BlksnshN 127]

switch out the m107 for a bolt action .50 cal then would be better, but a semi auto close quarter spam machine like the as50 currently is, makes the assault rifles pointless.

before i realised as50 was nooby, if i got one and didnt have an l85 i ran with it out all the time, because its simply the best gun both as close and long range, with a m107 10 round clip in it, given that hipfire is laser accurate.

Love your videos Frankie, keep up the good work.

[Wiley 49]

IMO all sniping really needs is more realism. Crosswind and a bit of dispersion would go a long way to making it better. Some might call it a 'nerf', I'd call it better gameplay.

[Ozelot (DayZ) 394]

If anything, the run speed of survivors needs to be nerfed to more realistic levels so snipers can actually hit things.

[hoorah (DayZ) 36]

This is pretty much nonsense.

Pretty much, yeah.

The 5.56 is a pretty weak round, and has been the focus of much debate over the years about why many NATO countries chose to use it. I believe it had something to do with the Geneva convention, or some other such agreement to make battle wounds a little less severe, not totally sure though. Feel free to educate me if I got that wrong, but I do not believe it would cause you to bleed out in a few seconds by any stretch.

As for the whole FMJs being unstable, thats a bunch of hogwash. Perhaps they're thinking of hollowpoints? or frangible rounds? Don't know here.

The last part has a hint of truth to it if they're referring to hydrostatic shock, but hydrostatic shock is most definitely not limited to AR caliber variants.

[miket 92]

I believe it needs a nerf.

The damage on the .50 cals is excessive. A player should be able to survive a shot to the extremities with these guns, but at the moment if you get hit in the foot its gameover.

The only time I survive a shot from an AS50 is when the bullet hit the ground infront of me and ricocheted into my legs. I still got a broken leg and lost 7,000 blood.

I would nerf the damage so a shot to the legs does about 10,000 blood damage. This, combined with a broken leg and high chance of passing out before you can bandage is powerful enough in my opinion.

I also laugh at the players who proclaim how much 'skill' they need to snipe at long ranges.

Well as someone who played over 200 hours of ARMA 2 before DayZ even came out, I can tell you that its really not that difficult, or realistic. It doesn't take much practice before you start to estimate ranges accurate to about 50 m without even thinking about it. You will soon find yourself zeroing your scope without any reference to mil-dots or a range finder.

Then it's just a matter of point and click.

In reality, shooting at range is affected not only be gravity, but by wind speed and direction, humidity, atmospheric pressure (which varies both with the weather and altitude), and of course, the shooter themselves. Even the slightest movement of the rifle whilst pulling the trigger can put the best aimed shot off by meters at long ranges.

Adding wind speed and direction to the game, like ACE, would be a great start. If the grass and trees actually blew in the wind, and high winds could be heard, that would not only be quite immersive, but it would also add just that little bit of extra difficulty when engaging targets long range.

And of course, this wouldn't just effect sniper rifles, but all weapons - from crossbow all the way up to AS50. Of course, you're probably going to notice the effects more with your sniper rifle at 800 m, but the effect is still there at 200 m with your assault rifle.

[flimsypremise 94]

I don't really see what the argument is for maintaining sniper rifles as they are. Increasing the recoil and accuracy on the .50 cals, and decreasing the damage on the smaller caliber rifles to bring them in line with the damage of other weapons of the same caliber would bring sniping back in line with other forms of combat. I'm open to arguments to the contrary, but everyone in this thread who wants to keep rifles as they are is pretty much responding at the level of HUUUURRRRRR FAGGOT which, if these are the people in favor is probably a good indication that they should be changed.

[Pvt. Kairis 14]

LOL 99.99999% of players have an AS50.

Want to add the TWS to the end of that weapon too?

[director 12]

if you think m107 and as-50 are best weapon for close combat than stop playing on servers with crosshair. I was attacked by "lumberjack" few days ago and i hit/kill him afther 12 shots. if he wasnt panicking he should kill me pretty easy. You cant use scope in close combat, there is no time to find target in those situations and only thing is to pray that enemy is in the middle of your screen :)

@porkus_maximus

i was answering on claim that plying as sniper is peace of cake. they also need to think about many things which can happen + they need to camp several hours to see someone. only real problem with snipers is when there is 4 ppl together, 2 sniping and 2 watching. that kills server gameplay.

maybe m107/as-50 should be weapons with only one bullet so you need to reload afther every shot. that will give more chance to others, and even nerf those weapon on servers with crosshair. but those weapons should not be in game at all with croshair ON. that is my opinion.

Edited August 30, 2012 by director

[KillCam96 26]

People, sniping is op when the rifles are scripted in and it doesn't help that players don't seem to use the 225sqkm of map they have been given. The trick is to head inland, I managed to escape the coast, I now have an M4a1 Holo (rare), an M107, M9sd, a Ghillie, and a bunch of meds, food and water, not to mention the heaps of ammo for all weapons.

The better loot and survival rate is found inland, gtfo of Cherno or Elektro get surviving and get looting!

[KillCam96 26]

I believe it needs a nerf.

The damage on the .50 cals is excessive. A player should be able to survive a shot to the extremities with these guns, but at the moment if you get hit in the foot its gameover.

The only time I survive a shot from an AS50 is when the bullet hit the ground infront of me and ricocheted into my legs. I still got a broken leg and lost 7,000 blood.

I would nerf the damage so a shot to the legs does about 10,000 blood damage. This, combined with a broken leg and high chance of passing out before you can bandage is powerful enough in my opinion.

I also laugh at the players who proclaim how much 'skill' they need to snipe at long ranges.

Well as someone who played over 200 hours of ARMA 2 before DayZ even came out, I can tell you that its really not that difficult, or realistic. It doesn't take much practice before you start to estimate ranges accurate to about 50 m without even thinking about it. You will soon find yourself zeroing your scope without any reference to mil-dots or a range finder.

Then it's just a matter of point and click.

In reality, shooting at range is affected not only be gravity, but by wind speed and direction, humidity, atmospheric pressure (which varies both with the weather and altitude), and of course, the shooter themselves. Even the slightest movement of the rifle whilst pulling the trigger can put the best aimed shot off by meters at long ranges.

Adding wind speed and direction to the game, like ACE, would be a great start. If the grass and trees actually blew in the wind, and high winds could be heard, that would not only be quite immersive, but it would also add just that little bit of extra difficulty when engaging targets long range.

And of course, this wouldn't just effect sniper rifles, but all weapons - from crossbow all the way up to AS50. Of course, you're probably going to notice the effects more with your sniper rifle at 800 m, but the effect is still there at 200 m with your assault rifle.

50.cal is excessive? Please. Even if you got hit in the little toe, you're as good as dead my friend, the rounds travel at such a velocity that a graze on the hand could rip off an arm, and if a round hits anywhere on your torso, you will no longer physically exist...

[Graylien 0]

Pretty much, yeah.

The 5.56 is a pretty weak round, and has been the focus of much debate over the years about why many NATO countries chose to use it. I believe it had something to do with the Geneva convention, or some other such agreement to make battle wounds a little less severe, not totally sure though. Feel free to educate me if I got that wrong, but I do not believe it would cause you to bleed out in a few seconds by any stretch.

As for the whole FMJs being unstable, thats a bunch of hogwash. Perhaps they're thinking of hollowpoints? or frangible rounds? Don't know here.

The last part has a hint of truth to it if they're referring to hydrostatic shock, but hydrostatic shock is most definitely not limited to AR caliber variants.

Though I have not researched this myself I heard a possible theory before that the choice of the smaller round is to incapacitate the enemy and possibly pacify other enemies by busying them with the medical, recovery work.

Not sure of the truth but something to ponder regardless

[rogue246 28]

I love the military weapons but this game would probably be much more realistic if they were all removed. The immersion would be better too, I mean come on, Do you think anything would survive a heli crash? Or M16's would be left sitting out somewhere? They would be locked up in a secure facility somewhere..

Give everybody a Lee enfield and revolver then have at it!

[codave 121]

First post, and all that... yeah, I registered (finally) just to respond to this thread topic.

Sniping does not need nerfed. The problem is well known, which is hacking and duping. Once those issues are taken care of, rare weapons will become rare again, and you'll start to see some target discrimination being used.

Two things that appeared in this thread that I DO support, are realistic hit boxes, and the implementation of wind. Whether or not wind is even able to be implemented, I don't know. But I would love to see some of you try and make wind calls, especially after seeing some of the nonsense posted in this thread. It would make those 800m to 1000m shots actually impressive, especially to hit a mover.

As it stands, sniping in this game *is* easy - compared to real life. It doesn't mean it needs a nerf, it just means that this is still a game. To take a rifle out, zero it for 100m, and use a hold over or dial in the elevation correction (if needed) to hit a target at 200m is fairly easy. Even 300m is relatively easy. Take it out past 400m, and things start getting tricky. At 800m with a .308, a first round hit is a feat of skill, that takes a long time to earn. There are other relevant skills that one needs other than just the DOPE for the rifle/ammo, and you have to put the trigger time in to earn it. Sniping in this game does take skill, just not what it takes out in the real world. Personally, I can accept that.

[gywidion@msn.com 80]

5.56mm NATO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

Wounding, Smaller Weapons, All that Jazz.

[miket 92]

50.cal is excessive? Please. Even if you got hit in the little toe, you're as good as dead my friend, the rounds travel at such a velocity that a graze on the hand could rip off an arm, and if a round hits anywhere on your torso, you will no longer physically exist...

A graze from a .50 cal could rip off an arm?

Someone failed highschool physics.

If you're referring to the .50 cal BMG round, they actually travel between around 850 and 1000 m/sec.

This is around the same speeds as a 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51.

It's the size/weight of the round which does the extra damage, not the velocity.

This 'graze from a .50 cal would kill you' is a complete falacy.

They're not "+5 rounds of disintegration".

Please note that I also specified a shot to the legs - meaning a bodyshot would still be an instant kill, even at very, very long ranges.

Edited August 31, 2012 by MykeMichail

[flimsypremise 94]

What exactly is the argument for keeping sniping as it is?

[miket 92]

What exactly is the argument for keeping sniping as it is?

Bad players don't want to make it more difficult to kill people who are 4 pixels high without a scope.

[codave 121]

A graze from a .50 cal could rip off an arm?

Someone failed highschool physics.

If you're referring to the .50 cal BMG round, they actually travel between around 850 and 1000 m/sec.

This is around the same speeds as a 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51.

It's the size/weight of the round which does the extra damage, not the velocity.

This 'graze from a .50 cal would kill you' is a complete falacy.

It's one of those arguments that seems to have originated either in a movie, or the news. But for some reason instead of thinking about it for a second and realizing it's ridiculous, people seem to repeat it as gospel.

The thing to remember, is that for a bullet to be effective, it actually has to transfer it's energy into the target. This is why a graze will do very little damage, regardless of the round used. The larger the mass the projectile impacts, the more energy it delivers into the target. Fingers, hands, feet, arms, and other small sections of the body have less mass than the body, so a hit there is less effective (not to mention a lack of vital organs or CNS).

But, yes. The energy a bullet carries is dependent on it's weight and velocity. Even though a .50 BMG round travels at roughly the same speeds, it's also MUCH heavier. A typical 5.56 round weighs in at about 55 to 75 grains, and typical 7.62x51 rounds are generally 160 to 190 grains.

Most .50 BMG rounds are between 600 and 800 grains - so they deliver much more energy. But if the target doesn't absorb it, that massive amount of energy is just wasted.

All rounds lose energy as they travel, due to the velocity diminishing. Just because I measure a .308 load at 2670 FPS with a chrono at 7 meters, doesn't mean that it will be traveling anywhere near that fast, or hit as hard, when it hits the deer/steel plate/pig 600m away. A .50 BMG round is no different, it's not magic. It plays by the same rules the rest of the universe does.

Edited August 31, 2012 by codave

[Hetstaine 10852]

LOL 99.99999% of players have an AS50.

awrigggght. I am the .000001 % ..i feel sort of unique.

[octopos 26]

When no duping and scripted weapons are possible, I'm pretty sure you will be gratified when a get hit by one of these weapons :P .

It's very rare to have one of it, so no dup/script, will make every (good) sniper very rare. And the As.50 will be extremely rare.

So no nerf... just no bugs and all will be ok

[Sontana 8]

This is pretty much nonsense.

Well thats what i was thougt in the airbourne. Do you got any other more accuret experiences?

[Sontana 8]

Pretty much, yeah.

The 5.56 is a pretty weak round, and has been the focus of much debate over the years about why many NATO countries chose to use it. I believe it had something to do with the Geneva convention, or some other such agreement to make battle wounds a little less severe, not totally sure though. Feel free to educate me if I got that wrong, but I do not believe it would cause you to bleed out in a few seconds by any stretch.

As for the whole FMJs being unstable, thats a bunch of hogwash. Perhaps they're thinking of hollowpoints? or frangible rounds? Don't know here.

The last part has a hint of truth to it if they're referring to hydrostatic shock, but hydrostatic shock is most definitely not limited to AR caliber variants.

Thank you. Good post :)

Well i suck at grammar most the time and im at work writeing this on my iphone.

1: yes u may get a lucky hit that dont hit vital organs and dont kill you in an instant.

2: not realy. If you ever been hunting and then dug out the bullet you will see that it has expanded, it will lock like a mushroom. This will cause it to stop in your target and cause massive bleeding. The 5.56 will stay mostly intact and keep its speed but start wobling and twist on inpact. It might bounce off a bone in Your body and change direction.

3: i think that is the word for it. Once again i refer to hunting. When you have skined and starting to cut up your deer or what ever you will see that the meat has blackend and some times thorn to shreads. The target will get hit by a high speed projectile will casue a big transfer of kinetic energy that will "explode" and killing tissue around the bullet hole.

[hoorah (DayZ) 36]

1: yes u may get a lucky hit that dont hit vital organs and dont kill you in an instant.

Either way, I can't say I'd be particularly combat effective after being hit by a .22, much less a .223 (5.56)

2: not realy. If you ever been hunting and then dug out the bullet you will see that it has expanded, it will lock like a mushroom. This will cause it to stop in your target and cause massive bleeding. The 5.56 will stay mostly intact and keep its speed but start wobling and twist on inpact. It might bounce off a bone in Your body and change direction.

Okay, now I see what you are saying. Yes, the 5.56 is intended to yaw once it hits its target and spin around causing more damage than if it were to just punch a tiny hole and go straight through. I thought you were suggesting that the bullet immediately flung itself into pieces upon impact, which is what a frangible round does, but not a FMJ round. There is much debate about the frequency (or lack thereof) that the round yaws in the body. Apparently its not as often as the shooter would like. You're also correct about the bullet bouncing off of bones, but thats not limited to a particular type of round.

3: i think that is the word for it. Once again i refer to hunting. When you have skined and starting to cut up your deer or what ever you will see that the meat has blackend and some times thorn to shreads. The target will get hit by a high speed projectile will casue a big transfer of kinetic energy that will "explode" and killing tissue around the bullet hole.

Yes, this is hydrostatic shock I believe. Its a shock wave that damaged the mostly fluid filled tissue around the impact site.