Why the Anti PvP arguments are pathetic

[Alexander (DayZ) 1]

Well hello there, How y'all doing?

Before I begin let me thank the developers of Dayz for an enthralling mod'. Of All the mods for Bohemia Interactive's softwere this is, for me, by far the most addictive. To my mind it's considerably more entertaining than some titles I've payed 30 squid for.

It's come to my attention from browsing these forums that there is a considerable amount of dispute over whether to retain PvP gameplay. Of course, in reality there is no real dispute for the mod is the sole property of it's maker and they need not heed any man's gripe about their work and can continue to do as they please, but insofar as other people's opinions do alter your own please allow me to point out the mangled logic and butthurt that constitutes the entire case for removing PvP gameplay. When dealing with such a weak case it's tempting to engage in mockery or reduce your opposition to simple straw men on which to draw genitalia but in the interests of fairness, and more importantly, utterly crushing what remains of this misguided pressure group let us here their case point by point. Try not to be distracted by the silent scream of "bawwwwwwwwww" before each point and attend the case most seriously; The honorable judge Lollington shall preside.

THE CASE FOR THE REMOVAL OF PvP ASPECTS IN DAYZ

Point 1: "PvP is simply not realistic Humans are naturally cooperative not naturally destructive. In a real life zombie apocalypse [lulwut?]

people would gang together, start taking back their land. As it is this is just a kiddies game of counter strike and murder is far more common than it should be!"

Humans have both cooperative and malicious urges. In society these are kept in check by a combination of social convention, self-respect, fear of the law, obedience to the law, lack of opportunity to use maliciousness for any gain etc etc. In a world in which ordinary civil society has ceased to exist many of these restraining factors simply disappear. Many would continue to abide by their own code of ethics but many would not. In times of great upheaval in human history do we not see man's nastier side more than we see it on a Sunday trip to the shops? Even cooperation within groups usually only proceeds on the basis of reciprocation. Between social, moral or political groups it can break down to the extent of war itself (the NW airfield rings to the sound of war between different groups I should say) If you found a drunk man passed out on a city street would you take him home? No? What if he was your best-friend?

Violence is inherent in humans. I sat on a park bench in Liverpool once and watched a builder throw a coin so hard at a pigeon he took it's head off. Then he laughed about it - in front of other people and with a policeman patrolling not 50 meters away.

Point 2: "PvP has no place in what is essentially a zombie mod, if you're going to advertise a zombie mod then essentially is should be zombies zombies and when your not shooting zombies we should talk about zombies and zombie games that are based on zombie films shouldn't have PEOPLE shooting each other because people aren't zombies and so when we play zombie games quod erat demonstrandum"

It may well be the case that that people expecting a game whose sole objective was zombie eradication will be surprised and appalled to be killed by another human in Dayz but this is not in my own experience. People seem upset to be shot but not upset that they could be shot - they are upset because it happened to them. Overall the reaction to the mod is fantastically positive and the number of people actively arguing for the removal of PvP action is small. Does this not imply that people are pleased with the PvP features? The case that humans antagonizing humans has no place in zombie lore per se has no basis in fact. The mutual antagonism of humans during a zombie apocalypse is a theme utterly central to the genre. I literally cannot name a popular zombie film in which humans have not treated other with contempt and suspicion at some point - this spurred on by the above mentioned factors. In short, Dayz let's you live "The Walking Dead". It plays out surprisingly similarly with practical Shanes, moralistic Ricks and fretful crybabys like Lori (ahem)

Point 3: "I had spent 6 hours playing and then got shot in the back in the middle of the woods at night. How am I meant to defend against that? To me that's not fun. The guy just goes around stalking people and [repeat point 1] which is dumb because [point 2] this is killing the mod [o rly?]

Girl I refuse, you must have me confused

With some other guy

Your bridges were burned, and now it's your turn

To cry, cry me a river

Cry me a river-er

Cry me a river

Cry me a river-er, yea yea

Point 4: "This PvP play is game-breaking. It's depressing getting killed and I get killed a lot"

See previous point

Point 5: People are farming high tier weapons free of any risk at all; Novy Sabour is a constant warzone; Bandits have superior camoflage to survivors; people can Alt-F4 out before they're killed

PvP gameplay: It's certainly not perfect. I've got my own ideas about what would make the PvP aspects of the game more balanced, more interesting and more varied but one semi-decent gripe can't make case for eliminating a HUGE aspect of gameplay. Player antagonism, bargaining and suspicion is central to the zombie genre, it puts a sharp edge on Dayz' gameplay, it enhances player freedom but ALSO encourages teamplay and could arguably be considered worthy social study. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Thank you for your time.

Addtional: Dayz mod please to put ACRE in mod wantuse ACRE radio system plxfixordosoumfink or iw forced to complain more.

[WildGunsTomcat 78]

While I agree PVP is essential in this mod...

You didn't have to be such a dick on this post.

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[Alexander (DayZ) 1]

I think calling someone a dick is being more of a dick than just being sarcastic at someone. Sarcasm is par for the course in England when you're trying to sink someone's argument although this may not be the case where you are from. It'd be a funny world if we were all alike wouldn't it?

I care little about "Catching flies".

[WildGunsTomcat 78]

I think calling someone a dick is being more of a dick than just being sarcastic at someone. Sarcasm is par for the course in England when you're trying to sink someone's argument although this may not be the case where you are from. It'd be a funny world if we were all alike wouldn't it?

I care little about "Catching flies".

There's a difference between sarcasm and calling people crybabies because they don't share your particular opinion.

And don't mask it behind "Oh I'm from England."

I lived in England for 2 years. I never dealt with this type of crap from any of my friends there.

[Mitey 2]

Only fools think this mod would be fun for more than a few days without PvP. PvP brings adrenaline rushing scenarios and variety into the game. If it was just PvE, you would just round up zombies, run into a building, loot and repeat. There would basically be no fear of death unless you pull a lot of zombies in the middle of a field. You have no need to play 'Splinter Cell'.

With PvP you need to be cautious how you bring attention to yourself. Do you throw flares in this area or is it too dangerous, should you use chemlights instead or would that still bring too much attention? You need to make sure you are watching all areas at all times, in fear of a sniper. You need to watch your back, or hope that a 'friend' will watch yours for you. You have to be cautious to unknown sounds - do you show yourself? How many are there? Are they friendly? It is a zombie? Do you stand still and wait it out?

After time, players start making squads and gangs, creating an extremely dynamic playthrough everyday. I haven't had this many adrenaline rushes playing video games in a long time. In this game if you die, you probably lose a lot. Dying is a big deal - all of your items are lost, your bearings are lost, none of your friends (if you banded together) are near you. You have to start from the bottom again, and that takes time.

I think PvP is vital to this mod and makes it amazing.

[savini 587]

Agree with Mitey.

The pvp aspect is a gameplay draw. The interaction between people is interesting to watch play out in side chat. It's like watching a horror movie =D. The cautious interaction is one of my favorite "features", and best of all it's a natural byproduct of life in the zone.

(Side note: I've been playing since...whenever I made this account...a month? anyway, in a months worth of gameplay I've managed to get by having only 4 other players.)

[Tom212 52]

I am tired and would like to make a much longer post such as yours but will try and just some up a few points in short.

You have a very good argument, I can't say I do not disagree with all those points. However there are a number of good points about PvP.

Immersion is one of them.

While the constant threat of being torn to pieces by the living dead can be quite frightening at the beginning of the game you quickly learn the limitations of zombies. You discover, as long as you find shelter they present a very timid threat. They do not wander far from settlements so you are safe travelling through that deep dark forest. They are generally quite unaware of movements that are not within a short range and the list goes on.

Once a player comes across these points...And turns the creepy game music down. There is very little sense of threat and threat in my opinion is one of the things that makes something scary.

Players add a edge to this, yes you may not bump into many zombies on this particular route however you constantly have to make sure you are in cover and employ tactical elements to your movements to be safe from the ever present threat of humanity!

This is one of the things that make this game fun for myself and my team, you really cooperate when you are constantly covering each other breaking cover, stopping to observe positions and keeping a 360 degree tab on your surroundings. If there was no PvP, we would simply run down the roads, in the open, fire our guns randomly in the woods etc. We even practice drills that we employ instantly in the instance of something like sniper fire or a ambush to ensure we are ready to deal with those more deadly and un-foreseeable threats.

However you could say to these points, "but Tom, what if they made these zombies more dynamic and make them more unpredictable to increase this 'threat' you talk about". My response to this would be there is nothing more scary than the prospect of other human beings posing a threat, it is one of the reasons our society is so attracted to the theme of war and violence that inhabit our video games and some hobbies such as airsoft/paintball. There is just something primal about pitching your head against another's, a challenge. However I am not proposing that I take this approach to everyone, I am friendly, but when it comes down to being mindful of bandits this is present.

Now I have sort of been drifting around my point 'Immersion', while some might predict less violence in a world such as depicted in Day Z I disagree. While I predict there would be less of the so called 'bandits' who hunt outright, the main risk in Day Z and in my opinion the would be reality is paranoia. This is the element that can lead two very "moral" human beings to set on destroying each-other. I believe there would be a great break down in trust in the real world if this happened and trust is what allows us to be so civilised, but we can only trust each other while there is the threat of the law looming over us so we know that the man I am talking to is inclined not to smash my face in when I insult him. Yes that man may have morals and would never intend to harm me for something so trivial, but while that sense of security is not there I cannot do anything but fear the worst in people. edit - And not to mention what the desperation brought upon by a event like this would bring people to do, you see war and poverty hand in hand in a number of regions of the world due to this.

The social aspect of Day Z is so dynamic and rich because of PvP, you feel more like you are in the game as you are really having to judge over people and think hard about the risks you take. I think without PvP Day Z would feel less like what Rocket intended it to be a 'Simulator' (which is also what most of this community love it for) and more like a general zombie arcade.

Like I said its like 1 am here in Blightly and I am afraid this is a little jumbled, however I believe all of that supports the richness and depth brought to the game through PvP.

I agree that yes the "bandits" are the real problem here, the people that hunt for the hell of it. However while we could soon come up with ways of policing this slightly it is still not that much of a problem for me. Myself and my team have been playing a long time now and I have only ever been killed by another player once and that was when I was a noob on my first life. As long as you learn to employ the right tactics you can easily avoid these people, if you get caught by them yes you may be upset, but you have no-one really to blame but yourself for letting yourself get caught out. Caution can avoid most threats, however I do agree there are some situations that cannot be avoided but that is just something that has to be excepted. Even the best survivor can be caught in a ambush, same way special forces units in real life could.

I personally love socialising with other players, talking to them, discussing stories around the campfire. Having arguments and disputes due to paranoia, the lot, makes the game so much more interesting. I suppose the best way to summarise my view would be that I am a huge fan of the right kind of PvP, but yes still disagree with some of the aspects brought from death matchers.

edit - Oh I have more! PvP is what makes this game unique compared to other Zombie Games, if it wasn't for that we might as well play other zombie games. If people cannot handle dying at the hands of other players they should simply go to one of these games in my opinion as taking PvP away would make this game much like any other.

Oh I actually did write alot, I better hit the sack now Yawn*.

[Alexander (DayZ) 1]

There's a difference between sarcasm and calling people crybabies because they don't share your particular opinion.

I wasn't actually referring to people complaining about PvP in that case. The fault is mine, I should have been clearer.

And don't mask it behind "Oh I'm from England."

I lived in England for 2 years. I never dealt with this type of crap from any of my friends there.

I've lived in England for 25 years. I am English and I argue a lot. And this type of "crap" is common - although often delivered with a disarming smile. Do you have something worthwhile to add or are you just going to go on as you are?

---

Additional: I think captain might be somewhat confused due to tiredness but I agree entirely with what he said, save as to the idea that the, so to speak, "Hardcore" bandits are a problem. Yes, they represent a danger to the gentler players but that's all part of the fun, part of the experience, an example of different mindsets. The risk and the fascination, surely. If they were not meant to be taken seriously, then why the entrenching tools in the latest update?

[Tom212 52]

I think calling someone a dick is being more of a dick than just being sarcastic at someone. Sarcasm is par for the course in England when you're trying to sink someone's argument although this may not be the case where you are from. It'd be a funny world if we were all alike wouldn't it?

I care little about "Catching flies".

There's a difference between sarcasm and calling people crybabies because they don't share your particular opinion.

And don't mask it behind "Oh I'm from England."

I lived in England for 2 years. I never dealt with this type of crap from any of my friends there.

Please, I did not see anything offensive in his post. He provided quite a well structured post to provoke debate, if you wish to disagree with him make a counter, lets not derail this topic. Its quite a interesting subject.

[scx 0]

Op has very good points, i just think PvP is broken right now because of the disconnect "feature", People disconnect when they're being shot at, they can also hop onto a different server, go into a location, and hop back to said server and kill opponent by spawning behind them.

i think 1 character per server would be a way around this problem, so you cant just server hop and spawn your character else where, disconnect when being shot or server hop to farm items.

[bayers 28]

Its common these days for ARMA players to complain when they get pwnd. It was never like that in Armed assault. You gunned someone down and they said - "well done, sir". Now they complain about it. If people dont like getting shot they should go play CO-OP. I used to play warfare over on XR server, but recently they have been listening to noobs who cant play PvP to save their virtual lives. Warfare there is only a shell of the game it once was... just there thankfully. Its still alive over on WASP and ARMA.RU

On XR/Hotshots, they increased air prices, removed artillery and many other little things that take the fun out of the game. All because of some nubs who cant play the game, so they cry to the developers... and they listen to them. Its outrageous.

Here is a perfect example of a nub who knows nothing about PvP, yet he thinks hes some sort of 4 star general. Arma is full of idiots like the guy here: http://hotshots.folkersma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2925

Even worse is that some people actually agreed with him.

Rocket knows how to play the game. I doubt hes gonna listen to grown men cry about PvP when they get shot. If people complain about PvP it means they are shit at the game. My advice to them is, go play CO-OP.

[Tom212 52]

Yeah, a large number of the gaming community - some now being attracted to ARMA for this mod, are used to the coventional FPS. While yes the ARMA engine may seem fiddly, it is also much, much more excitingly tactical. ARMA RPG games too, such as this are really something that get your heart pounding, very fun. Today I was drawn into a gunfight on my own against 3 shooters, however I managed to get a vantage point get two, then tactically outflank the last one and finish him. The fact there is so much to lose and you really only have 1 life make it much more exciting. Something completely different to normal combat in FPS's where you just respawn in seconds. I would suggest people perhaps practice in singleplayer and get used to the combat in the game, there is far too little of it in Day Z when it comes to conventional combat and when it does come it is deadly if you do not know what you are doing. Rather than having no experience and getting a little frustrated when you get killed.

I agree with you Bayers, things have changed.

However PLEASE do not take this as we are simply saying, "stop crying because you suck" we are just making a point about the game being quite difficult and a minority of players who moan. Lets keep this a debate.

I have a suggestion to protect against players d/c in combat, although there are a few implications. Having your player remain in game for a short period of time like some MMO's, meaning you must log out in a safe place otherwise you could still be killed while offline.

[LordFrost 3]

Removing PvP is absolutely ludicrous, it's a mainstay of the very mod in every instance!

Making it more challenging to actually succeed in PvP, that is a much more difficult thing to do.

I haven't actually seen anyone say they want PvP gone in its entirety, though I have personally said it is far too easy to grab a 550 and just be a douche.

In due time, I am sure the mod will have a sensible approach to PvE and PvP both, but neither should EVER be removed. The combination is one of the things that sets DayZ apart from other zombie games.

[bayers 28]

I dont mind noobs playing Arma. If they put their heads down and be quiet until they learn the ropes thats just dandy. But really dislike it when some tool who has only been playing for 2 months comes and starts to make suggestions about how he thinks a mod should be like. Ive been playing for 10 years and I still learn new things about the game, tactics and whatnot. I wouldnt have the nerve to tell a mod developer how to do his job.

[Tom212 52]

People really are aggressive when it comes to people discussing their opinion on this forum aren't they lol, not that I disagree.

[bayers 28]

I'll kill you!!!!

[trauma.au 14]

TL;DR

This topic has been covered sufficiently already.

[lev 39]

I feel like this is due to the existing trend in gaming where victories are more or less handed out to the player. There are very few games where the player is actually challenged to the point of having to either learn something new or improve their own play style in order to overcome a difficulty. Being that ARMA2 was intended as a simulator none of these design conventions have made their way into the game. Most modern games "feed" the victory to the player and rarely does a player have to work hard to achieve victory. Coupled with game marketing practices that glorify the regular and mundane achievements a player can obtain, the modern video gamer is used to feeling superior or at least competent regardless of their actual level of skill.

The popularity of this mod has caused an influx of new players who do not play A2 and are used to modern mass marketed game design conventions which is now leading to opposition to the hardcore nature of the mod and A2 in general. Thus a lot of suggestions are aimed at either correcting problems innate to the real virtuality engine/features of the engine, or the design theory of the mod. It is not surprising that new players coming in with their gaming backgrounds "expect" certain things out of this game. Rather than trying to enjoy the game by overcoming challenges, they want the game to help them move to some end-state.

I trust that Rocket understands A2 and the general expectation of this mod so I'm not worried that changes will be made to make this game easier or more friendly.

[Mihajlo Pavlovic 1]

There are two types of pk, one where you get killed for gear and or looting an area someone else wanted to themselves, and one where you get killed just for the sake of it. I think people are fucked off with the second.

[zeru 5]

Yeah probably less than 1% of the community actually wants pvp removed, however a large chunk of the community wants it to be further refined.

Hopefully people will eventually stop lumping these 2 viewpoints together.

[sorophx 25]

bandits have superior camo? what?

how is desert camouflage superior in Chernarus?

[Palora 6]

It's come to my attention from browsing these forums that there is a considerable amount of dispute over whether to retain PvP gameplay.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong from the get go: there is no dispute over removing or keeping PvP. The discussion is over having a penalty for 'mindless' killing vs not having a penalty for 'mindless' killing.

With that mistake and the overall sense of rudeness i get from you, I didn't really read further down your post, let alone down the topic. Sorry to those who did make good points, either way, but your better of keeping your opinions in topics that are already having the true discussion.

[WildGunsTomcat 78]

It's come to my attention from browsing these forums that there is a considerable amount of dispute over whether to retain PvP gameplay.

I'm sorry' date=' but you are wrong from the get go: there is no dispute over removing or keeping PvP. The discussion is over having a penalty for 'mindless' killing vs not having a penalty for 'mindless' killing.

With that mistake and the overall sense of rudeness i get from you, I didn't really read further down your post, let alone down the topic. Sorry to those who did make good points, either way, but your better of keeping your opinions in topics that are already having the true discussion.

[/quote']

Ah good so it wasn't just me who picked up on his rudeness.

[Alex LWG 2]

PvP is a main element of this mod, it may be hard at start for people but you get use to it every new life you have. If you keep getting killed out of nowhere, you may want to rethink what time you are on servers as well as who you are near. Also, it doesn't hurt to wait a minute and look out into the environment and imagine if you were a PvPer, where you would be waiting.

[LondonHyena 7]

Without PVP the challenge and sense of risk would die shockingly fast. If we all ran around without being able to pop each other off, it would just descend into groups clearing a town of zeds in minutes and getting all the best gear without any issue. I can imagine whole swarms of survivors just hanging around the airfield chatting to each other.