Why I host a non-hive server

[suspense 210]

Agreed! Though I think the hive quality should not matter, we should have private hives with full support regardless. Though, the state of the hive system today really does help push the point.

Emulation is not about code exploitation or "direct functions intended for something else". You have no idea what you're talking about. Emulation is just that - emulation of software or hardware that already exists. It is not stealing. Further, emulation software for any type of soft or hardware is 100% legal virtually everywhere. Its not even a gray area. Its entirely Legal. Here, maybe this will help:

tr.v. em·u·lat·ed, em·u·lat·ing, em·u·lates

1. To strive to equal or excel, especially through imitation: an older pupil whose accomplishments and style I emulated.

2. To compete with successfully; approach or attain equality with.

3. Computer Science To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.

And what about the meantime? Why not simply offer support or at least permit hive servers to operate without contest? Why not open a forum for discussion? Now seems like an awfully good time to do that don't you think?

You have full control over everything. Every possible setting. You have your own independant database and you have whatever redundant security measures you can possibly think of setting up at your disposal. Thats about the best description I can give without "possibly breaking forum rules" I think.

Very well spoken.

Actually, i do know what i am talking about.

Can i create an iphone that looks exactly like it? But hardware is painted green, screen is yellow, and its got my name on it? No i cannot.

Can i host an emulated server that either provides exactly what the "original" server does, or provides a "modified" experience? No i cannot.

Why? Because, you make a mod/game owned by someone else, available to the public without his/her consent. This could be argued 2 weeks ago before recent changes, however, not anymore, why?

Because by creating a private hive providing a very much clone experience of the offical mod(or slightly modified but using same concept) is breaking one, more or several IP infringements, trademark or copyright infringements which Bohemia Interactive now owns.

Its not really something that can be argued. It does not take a terms of service agreement to determine ownership of code, all it takes is for someone to write it, and its copyrighted. Since the announcement of Day Z standalone, Bohemia Interactive has been filing copyright for acronyms, title, and more.

Then please elaborate on what all Rocket has added to the game that wasn't already in the game/previous mods?

Have you played other zombie mods in ArmA? I have, they move different, they look different, they sound different, they behave different. Then we have randomized loot spots, eat/drink/heat system etc etc. None of the code was "stolen", Rocket even said he developed it all from ground up with _Inspiration_ from other mods.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Suspenselol

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

Actually, i do know what i am talking about.

Can i create an iphone that looks exactly like it? But hardware is painted green, screen is yellow, and its got my name on it? No i cannot.

Can i host an emulated server that either provides exactly what the "original" server does, or provides a "modified" experience? No i cannot.

Why? Because, you make a mod/game owned by someone else, available to the public without his/her consent. This could be argued 2 weeks ago before recent changes, however, not anymore, why?

Because by creating a private hive providing a very much clone experience of the offical mod(or slightly modified but using same concept) is breaking one, more or several IP infringements, trademark or copyright infringements which Bohemia Interactive now owns.

Its not really something that can be argued. It does not take a terms of service agreement to determine ownership of code, all it takes is for someone to write it, and its copyrighted. Since the announcement of Day Z standalone, Bohemia Interactive has been filing copyright for acronyms, title, and more.

You seem to feel very strongly about this. Is this just specific to DayZ or do you use the same line of thought in every aspect of life and follow all rules/laws blindly?

Also going to assume you have never watched a pirated movie in your life and would refuse if someone ever offered. Also I'm guessing you are have never downloaded a MP3, TV show, or anything else that you didn't pay for. I'm sure you don't even have torrents installed on your computer..

So basically we have a hardcore life nit who has never done anything wrong or broken a rule, but happens to post on the interent all day and play games involving killing players.. Yeah, that's what I thought Mr. Hypocrite

[Mrdk 50]

The DayZ dev team, led by rocket, is very busy building the mod he created.

Non-hive servers are not supported by the dev team at this time.

I am not here to argue the virtues or detriments of non-hive servers, but to support policy.

This thread being moved to off topic.

Alright. Thank you for letting me stay here (I have heard of suspensions for non-hive related stuff in the past). Thanks for letting us discuss this issue. Last but not least, thank you for not locking the topic and allowing the discussion to continue. You have a job to do, thats fine. The policy is your job. Perhaps you could somehow make the point though - non hives are getting big. There are over 150 running at my last count, thats a 2x increase in the past week. They matter. Maybe you can pass that along. Official support one day would be nice.

Actually, i do know what i am talking about.

Can i create an iphone that looks exactly like it? But hardware is painted green, screen is yellow, and its got my name on it? No i cannot.

Can i host an emulated server that either provides exactly what the "original" server does, or provides a "modified" experience? No i cannot.

Why? Because, you make a mod/game owned by someone else, available to the public without his/her consent. This could be argued 2 weeks ago before recent changes, however, not anymore, why?

Because by creating a private hive providing a very much clone experience of the offical mod(or slightly modified but using same concept) is breaking one, more or several IP infringements, trademark or copyright infringements which Bohemia Interactive now owns.

Its not really something that can be argued. It does not take a terms of service agreement to determine ownership of code, all it takes is for someone to write it, and its copyrighted. Since the announcement of Day Z standalone, Bohemia Interactive has been filing copyright for acronyms, title, and more.

Have you played other zombie mods in ArmA? I have, they move different, they look different, they sound different, they behave different. Then we have randomized loot spots, eat/drink/heat system etc etc. None of the code was "stolen", Rocket even said he developed it all from ground up with _Inspiration_ from other mods.

Good for rocket. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't have this awesome mod and future standalone to play. That stuff aside, you are very, very wrong about emulation legality. Emulators of every and all type are legal. If you built an Iphone-like device with an iphone-like OS, it would in fact be a legal device so long as it wasn't just an iphone painted green with the actual iphone OS installed. You're dead wrong about emulation legality. Absolutely wrong. Google "emulation legality".

[suspense 210]

You seem to feel very strongly about this. Is this just specific to DayZ or do you use the same line of thought in every aspect of life and follow all rules/laws blindly?

Also going to assume you have never watched a pirated movie in your life and would refuse if someone ever offered. Also I'm guessing you are have never downloaded a MP3, TV show, or anything else that you didn't pay for. I'm sure you don't even have torrents installed on your computer..

So basically we have a hardcore life nit who has never done anything wrong or broken a rule, but happens to post on the interent all day and play games involving killing players.. Yeah, that's what I thought Mr. Hypocrite

Actually, if you had read my posts you would quickly realise that my problem is not hosting them, using them, or playing on them. It is disrespecting the creator by continuesly posting these threads on his forum, despite the official stand on the subject. I already said, i dont mind if private hive owners go share/speak/advertise about it on their own created forum.

[suspense 210]

Alright. Thank you for letting me stay here (I have heard of suspensions for non-hive related stuff in the past). Thanks for letting us discuss this issue. Last but not least, thank you for not locking the topic and allowing the discussion to continue. You have a job to do, thats fine. The policy is your job. Perhaps you could somehow make the point though - non hives are getting big. There are over 150 running at my last count, thats a 2x increase in the past week. They matter. Maybe you can pass that along. Official support one day would be nice.

Good for rocket. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't have this awesome mod and future standalone to play. That stuff aside, you are very, very wrong about emulation legality. Emulators of every and all type are legal. If you built an Iphone-like device with an iphone-like OS, it would in fact be a legal device so long as it wasn't just an iphone painted green with the actual iphone OS installed. You're dead wrong about emulation legality. Absolutely wrong. Google "emulation legality".

Really? Thats why samsung has been banned for selling its Galaxy Nexus in the US and germany, even tho its not even remotely the same as the iphone?(because it resembles features that look ALIKE)

Thats why the samsung galaxy tab has been banned in the US, even tho its not even remotely the same as the ipad?(because it resembles features that look ALIKE)

Why was the creator of wowscape sued for 88 million and lost the suit? (Because she was providing an emulated service that was based on code/content officially owned by another company)

I honestly dont know who or what makes you think that copying other peoples work is legal, it really isnt, and the recent lawsuits the past 4 years is clear evidence of this. Not only that, you are by law not "allowed" to re-release software thats using code created by someone else, without their consent. And if i am not mistaken, apart from the hive(which is the only thing that is emulated) i bet you are using the actual Day Z mod files, right? Yeah, thats legally not allowed without consent.

[Disgraced 1123]

Alright. Thank you for letting me stay here (I have heard of suspensions for non-hive related stuff in the past). Thanks for letting us discuss this issue. Last but not least, thank you for not locking the topic and allowing the discussion to continue. You have a job to do, thats fine. The policy is your job. Perhaps you could somehow make the point though - non hives are getting big. There are over 150 running at my last count, thats a 2x increase in the past week. They matter. Maybe you can pass that along. Official support one day would be nice.

Last week I would have removed the thread per instructions.

This week I moved it to off topic, per instructions.

Make of that what you will

I would also say, good job on keeping this discussion civil, let's keep that up I. The thread, please..

Please pardon my interruption.

[Mrdk 50]

Really? Thats why samsung has been banned for selling its Galaxy Nexus in the US and germany, even tho its not even remotely the same as the iphone?(because it resembles features that look ALIKE)

Thats why the samsung galaxy tab has been banned in the US, even tho its not even remotely the same as the ipad?(because it resembles features that look ALIKE)

Why was the creator of wowscape sued for 88 million and lost the suit? (Because she was providing an emulated service that was based on code/content officially owned by another company)

I honestly dont know who or what makes you think that copying other peoples work is legal, it really isnt, and the recent lawsuits the past 4 years is clear evidence of this. Not only that, you are by law not "allowed" to re-release software thats using code created by someone else, without their consent. And if i am not mistaken, apart from the hive(which is the only thing that is emulated) i bet you are using the actual Day Z mod files, right? Yeah, thats legally not allowed without consent.

The samsung galaxy tab is a piece of hardware. Its not software. My iphone point may be a gray area but when it comes to software emulation I am 100% correct. Go ahead, google. nintendo emulator legality. 100% legal. Wii emulator legality. 100% legal. The galaxy tab is a peice of hardware that was made to compete with the ipad. As a result of the horrible justice system in America (that place where you can literally sue anyone for anything) and controversial laws in germany, the hardware was disallowed for sale.

The rest of the world however, has no problem selling this hardware. None at all. Apples cases were dismissed in Canada, England and Australia just from what I've read.

The wow server was given a cease and desist via Blizzard because it attracted a huge amount of attention. The server Op refused, got taken to court and lost. So what happened? Well, his emulated server was in fact completely legal. He got bit by Blizzard because he was selling pay2play access to the server on a monthly basis. The payment was monthly and cost roughly half of wow. They didn't go after him for the emulator, they went after him because he created a business out of an emulator and made no effort to communicate, share or change his system to a donation policy (legal) system. He kept his payment system. he got sued and lost because he sold a product he didn't own. It was nothing to do with him running emulated software.

Emulators are not illegal. Look it up online man, the internet is right there at your fingertips.

Actually, if you had read my posts you would quickly realise that my problem is not hosting them, using them, or playing on them. It is disrespecting the creator by continuesly posting these threads on his forum, despite the official stand on the subject. I already said, i dont mind if private hive owners go share/speak/advertise about it on their own created forum.

The intention of the thread is not to disrespect Rocket. On the contrary, I have the utmost of respect for him and his team of devs. I don't know about anyone else but this is the first thread I've ever posted here. Also, from what I can tell it is the most reasonable and non-flaming post. It explains the situation, breaks it down for you and tries to show you what is wrong.

Its not up to you where and what we can "share and speak". As for advertising, give me a break. I didn't advertise anything here and I even stated at the top of the post that there would be no links to my nonhive server posted here.

But maybe if you had actually read my post you would understand that.

This is a discussion about nonhive servers. This discussion has been authorized by the DayZ team. Its not up to you.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Mrdk

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

Actually, if you had read my posts you would quickly realise that my problem is not hosting them, using them, or playing on them. It is disrespecting the creator by continuesly posting these threads on his forum, despite the official stand on the subject. I already said, i dont mind if private hive owners go share/speak/advertise about it on their own created forum.

Oh I get your point exactly. Your love for the game and the creator have caused you to act in a way you normally wouldn't in other, everyday aspects of your life.. People are disrespecting him and that bothers you. We should make up a word for people like you, we can call them a fanboy or something like that.

The problem is presentation, how you are coming off while you are trying to defend them. It just looks make you look like a giant hypocrite. See below.

No - Go create your own game from scratch, then advertise your servers - Dont steal others work.

Thread reported.

Looks like someone did read all your posts, love the first one BTW.. Now don't you have some damn skateboarding kids on your lawn to go yell at?

[suspense 210]

The samsung galaxy tab is a piece of hardware. Its not software. My iphone point may be a gray area but when it comes to software emulation I am 100% correct. Go ahead, google. nintendo emulator legality. 100% legal. Wii emulator legality. 100% legal. The galaxy tab is a peice of hardware that was made to compete with the ipad. As a result of the horrible justice system in America (that place where you can literally sue anyone for anything) and controversial laws in germany, the hardware was disallowed for sale.

The rest of the world however, has no problem selling this hardware. None at all. Apples cases were dismissed in Canada, England and Australia just from what I've read.

The wow server was given a cease and desist via Blizzard because it attracted a huge amount of attention. The server Op refused, got taken to court and lost. So what happened? Well, his emulated server was in fact completely legal. He got bit by Blizzard because he was selling pay2play access to the server on a monthly basis. The payment was monthly and cost roughly half of wow. They didn't go after him for the emulator, they went after him because he created a business out of an emulator and made no effort to communicate, share or change his system to a donation policy (legal) system. He kept his payment system. he got sued and lost because he sold a product he didn't own. It was nothing to do with him running emulated software.

Emulators are not illegal. Look it up online man, the internet is right there at your fingertips.

The intention of the thread is not to disrespect Rocket. On the contrary, I have the utmost of respect for him and his team of devs. I don't know about anyone else but this is the first thread I've ever posted here. Also, from what I can tell it is the most reasonable and non-flaming post. It explains the situation, breaks it down for you and tries to show you what is wrong.

Its not up to you where and what we can "share and speak". As for advertising, give me a break. I didn't advertise anything here and I even stated at the top of the post that there would be no links to my nonhive server posted here.

But maybe if you had actually read my post you would understand that.

This is a discussion about nonhive servers. This discussion has been authorized by the DayZ team. Its not up to you.

You are still completely oblivious to what i am saying. You obviously did not read the case files for the wow case, i did. Several main points in the case was breach of IP infringement and copyright. Only 3.4 million of the 88 million was due to profit gained off of microtransactions on wowscape, the remaning was damages from IP and copyright infringement.

You keep argueing that "console" emulators are legal, yes, in fact, they are. IF! they are in fact completely emulated(not using bios files from the "official" bios). You still dont seem to understand, that you are emulating the hive, but still putting it together with mod files that are not yours. How you do not understand this, is beyond me.

An "emulator" is not just an emulator, just like you cant actually compare the samsung cases to this. A console emulator is much different from MMORPG emulators in the game industry, Why? Because console emulators are rarely run on an actual console, they are also rarely using copies of biosfiles. And since its not a console(it usually runs on linux or windows) it does not hurt market, and its usually years behind. There has been several cases about console emulators, some in favor of the emulator, some in favor of the production companies. Its not _Per say legal_

An example, would be the nexon and odinms case, where modified client files were being released(which is whats used in things like lingor servers, or "anti-rocket" servers) the use of "legit" files with "unintented backend" is also unintended use of intellectual property=not legal without consent, this is BASIC LAW.

Disney also shut down several emulated private servers for using ingame content(their world, core game etc) without consent.

Nexus also _almost_ entered legal proceedings against a community developing private server emulators.

Oh I get your point exactly. Your love for the game and the creator have caused you to act in a way you normally wouldn't in other, everyday aspects of your life.. People are disrespecting him and that bothers you. We should make up a word for people like you, we can call them a fanboy or something like that.

The problem is presentation, how you are coming off while you are trying to defend them. It just looks make you look like a giant hypocrite. See below.

Looks like someone did read all your posts, love the first one BTW.. Now don't you have some damn skateboarding kids on your lawn to go yell at?

My initial post came off wrong, i apologise for that. If you had read my other posts, you would realise my intentions and reasons for my arguements are intirely different.

EDIT:

Per your request, i read up more specifically on nintendo emulators, and what did i find.. Yes, like i already stated, an emulator is alright to build if its not using original bios files. However! It is not allowed to use an emulator to play nintendo games in an unofficial manner.

Copyright law "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to work protected under this title

You are not allowed to "to “circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure” means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure"

The hive controls access to Day Z, emulating it privately is fine, emulating it publicly is against law without consent.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Suspenselol

[Mrdk 50]

You are still completely oblivious to what i am saying. You obviously did not read the case files for the wow case, i did. Several main points in the case was breach of IP infringement and copyright. Only 3.4 million of the 88 million was due to profit gained off of microtransactions on wowscape, the remaning was damages from IP and copyright infringement.

Yeah, thats what happens when you also hand out a modified client. And make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month via hosting a very popular mmorpg without consent from the parent company. Its called priority. The guy made millions off their software without permission so they threw everything they could at him.

But does that mean server emulators are illegal? No. They are not.

Its really very simple. So long as an emulator contains no origonal code from what it is emulating then it is technically legal.

You can sit here, and derail this topic all day long with your self vindicating speeches about emulation, but its not going to change anything.

You keep argueing that "console" emulators are legal, yes, in fact, they are. IF! they are in fact completely emulated(not using bios files from the "official" bios). You still dont seem to understand, that you are emulating the hive, but still putting it together with mod files that are not yours. How you do not understand this, is beyond me.

Close, but no cigar. A console emulator is legal. Period. So long as it is emulating the console, its legal. As for the bios - the bios itself is illegal and unless you own a physical console it is 'technically' copyright infringement to download and use the bios file. PCSX2 for example uses bios files. The emulator itself is legal. The bios (which they do not provide and require you to find one) is a copyright infringement issue.

A test: Goto your local police detachment. Tell them you have a pirated copy of Microsoft Office 2010 and you are there to turn yourself in. Do you know what they will tell you? Go home. Uninstall it. Get lost. Unless microsoft brings a civil suit against you, or unless you are reproducing and selling pirated and or copywrited material it is simply not illegal.

An "emulator" is not just an emulator, just like you cant actually compare the samsung cases to this.

You brought that example up, not me.

A console emulator is much different from MMORPG emulators in the game industry, Why? Because console emulators are rarely run on an actual console, they are also rarely using copies of biosfiles.

That is incorrect. Maybe if you take the bigger picture and compare every console emulator in history you could possibly be right. You're missing something though, virtually every emulator created in the last 10 years for any system created after 1993 (excluding SNES) actually REQUIRES you get the bios file. These emulators are legal. The bios file is not. You can claim I have a "misunderstanding" all you want, but I don't. All nintendo DS, Playstation 1, Playstation 2, N64, gamecube, Xbox emulators require you find, download and install bios files.

Anyway, I'm done debating "emulation" in general with you. Based on the copyright law snippet you posted I'm assuming you don't live in Canada like I do. Technically, piracy is not even against the law here (nor is it in the United States, btw). What is actually against the law is reselling copyrighted goods. These laws are intended to target people attempting to make a profit from pirating.

As for non hive servers, I dont know about the antirocket build but the one I rock right now is completely emulated. The database and all files within the build are created from the ground up. The only thing it "uses" outside the emulator is those files within @DayZ itself. Is that legal? In my country it is. I downloaded a free addon for a video game called DayZ. It is on my computer, and is on a physical medium I own. Therefore, so long as I dont reproduce or sell it, its legal. End of story. Its not a big argument. Its really rather simple, and your tactics of claiming I misunderstand you simply will not work.

Agree to disagree if you want. Whatever. The world doesn't revolve around your country of origin nor does it revolve around its laws.

Emulation is a legal practice. Posting information of a guy getting sued for making millions of dollars off of something that he did not have permission to make money with (much less use) is not evidence that emulation is "illegal". Thats evidence that you shouldn't take a server emulator for (at the time) the most popular game in the world and use it to host a server capable of allowing over 5000 players. Actually that is probably okay, whats really wrong is the fact that he was making serious money from this project of his. Was it illegal? yes, because he was making money from it which allowed Blizzard to move forward with legal action. Its really that simple. If he wasn't making serious cash from the project, they never would have went after him. Please, cite a credible source that shows his settlement was directly attributed to emulated software and not everything else he stole - such as potential income, copyright infringement of their Wow game client software (NOT THE SERVER EMULATOR. But the client) and even webpage graphics at one point.

If you make a server software for something, and you charge people $50/month to use it, but I then turn around and create a server emulator that emulates your software and I release it for free (like how all these emulated servers are released, btw) thats fine. You could try to sue me in the United States I suppose - but only because you can literally sue for anything down there. What would you sue for? Server emulation? Loss profits? My software is free and I'm not making money from it. Case dropped.

The very notion that emulation is "illegal" is ridiculous. Its simply not illegal. Nor is piracy (in Canada) unless you decide to sell pirated copies. Selling a server emulator without permission would be a violation of copyright infringement, but there is a certain bracket of profit that needs to be reached and proven before the charge becomes an actual federal, criminal charge here in Canada. If that limit is not reached its up to the parent company to sue.

Pretty straightforward stuff over all, and mostly common sense for most people that know a little about computers. Emulators are legal. You're wrong.

Now stop derailing the topic. Talk about non-hive.

Explain to me how a ground up emulator that is built on original code with an original database which is using free modded files that I downloaded and now own on my physical medium according to the laws of the country I live in is any way "illegal"?

Again I reiterate: A test: Goto your local police detachment. Tell them you have a pirated copy of Microsoft Office 2010 and you are there to turn yourself in. Do you know what they will tell you? Go home. Uninstall it. Get lost. Unless Microsoft brings a civil suit against you, or unless you are reproducing and selling pirated and or copyrighted material it is simply not illegal.

Please I beg of you, show me some sort of law that in any way pertains to "emulators" of any kind. A console bios is not an emulator btw, its a separate thing you download but I covered that.

Copyright law "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to work protected under this title

You are not allowed to "to “circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure” means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure"

Do you know what that law is intended for? Its intended to create a criminal offense for people that crack software and release things like no-cd cracks and the like. Thats nothing to do with server emulation.

The hive controls access to Day Z, emulating it privately is fine, emulating it publicly is against law without consent.

False. If it were then non hives would not be still listed by gamespy - or are they just that lazy that they cant respond to simple blacklisting requests? It could become a civil liability and a company could come after you if you charged for access to said server. But I'm not.

By the way, the guy from WoWscape also modified the world of warcraft game client (on top of illegally mirroring the client itself for his userbase to use (read: real client, not an emulator, server was an emulator) to connect to his server. That is not proof that emulation is "illegal".

Edited August 13, 2012 by Mrdk

[Mrdk 50]

I would like to hear some actual constructive comments and or debate regarding hive vs non hive servers. Emulators are not illegal in their truest state so just drop it. Come on community, lets hear some pro and or non-hive server pointers and debate.

Why aren't we talking about why rocket does not allow non hive servers? Why aren't we talking about possible benefits of non hive and hive servers? I'll tell you why, because some guy came in here and started derailing using bogus comments about emulation being illegal.

[Trapalicious 77]

No - Go create your own game from scratch, then advertise your servers - Dont steal others work.

Thread reported.

It's always great when you see this as the first post from someone in a thread, it's a great hint that reading the rest of their posts on the topic would be an enormous drag and waste of time.

10/10, wouldn't read again.

Anyway, I usually don't play on non-hive servers for the simple fact that my profile is attached to that server alone. I like the convenience of being able to join another server if the one I visit regularly is for some reason down or lagging. Otherwise, I kind of feel like I have to change when I play to suit the server's needs rather than when I want to play myself. That said, I still agree with your points.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Trapalicious

[Da_Reapa1 4]

Only reason private hives are more "stable" right now, is because its the underdog. Just wait until they become popular, it wont be any different.

He is using modified code, its no different then pirating a game. And here he is, encouraging people to support other people that stole code. Dont matter whether he wanted to pay for standalone or not, he is still using Rockets work.

DayZ would not exist without modified code. Go flame Rocket for stealing the hard work of the other guys at Bohemia.

[Yshido 34]

I fully agree with the threadstarter!

Our clan was hosting 4 hive servers and we decided to shut them off, due to the rediculous rules made by the devs. 2 are down already the next two will be shut down next week. Afterwards I can proudly tell everyone: "I am not an instrument of the dev team anymore! I am a real alpha tester!"

Pro Hive

• well ..... hmmm ..... oh yeah ...... you can troll shitloads of ppl.
  

Pro Non-Hive

• no server hopping possible (serverhopping was stated as a bad thing by the dev team)
  
• hacking attemps can be reversed (hacking was stated as a bad thing by the dev team)
  
• no position exploiting possible by logging into another server change your position and log back.
  
• more will come up here
  

Edited August 13, 2012 by Yshido

[Falcrist 119]

What on earth are people arguing about in this thread?

First of all, Rocket has given explicit approval to private hives already. The exact quote is shown below. Follow the quote back to it's own thread if you want to read more.

In addition, a modification of dayz is no different than DayZ itself. Let me remind you all that DayZ is itself a mod of ArmA2. If private hives are theft because they're based on Rocket's work, then DayZ is theft because it's based on BIS's work.

UPDATE FROM ROCKET:"... recommend at the moment to do private servers for the live streams. And that actually brings up a good issue because a lot of people have been asking for the ability to create private servers or separate hives and things like that. And I think that's something we need to seriously think about as well going forward, um... you know I wanted to keep it like it is at the moment to get the message out there, to say: "This is a multiplayer game!", to the people we could use for financing and things like that. If they saw that the idea could be taken as a single-player game then they would have gone for that. So what we've done here is we've, you know the gamers have spoken and said "we wanna see more of this", so... we don't have to worry about that so much. So I think that we can probably come to some solution here and in the short term that would help with the hacking".

Transcribed from his livestream with Machinima:

In a nut shell that means he was worried that private hives/servers would have been abused for the "private" function, aka having a server to yourself with 1/50 players so you can experience the game as a single-player mode, which goes against his "vision" that people like so much to misquote and misinterpret. Hope that clears up some of the broken-record responses about taking things Rocket has said and twisting them around to suit your cause.

[Yshido 34]

Last week I would have removed the thread per instructions.

This week I moved it to off topic, per instructions.

Make of that what you will

I would also say, good job on keeping this discussion civil, let's keep that up I. The thread, please..

Please pardon my interruption.

Why moving this to the off topic section of the forums? Actually it is NOT off topic. But thank you you are telling us, the thread was move per instruction. At least it was not your intention to move it. I have no clue, if you are getting payed for the job as moderator (usually this is not the case), but you should really think about continuing your work if you are forced to do something against your persuasion.

Anyway, the instruction to move this thread, shows exactly the intention of the dev team: You have to pay for your server, so we can test our software and you have no rights at all. Really funny for a so called "non proftit / free to play game". While Mr. Hall is now project leader within Bohemia Interactive I doubt this game is going to stay free to play.... Anyway, I really wonder who is actually hosting the hive. Is it a company or is it Mr. Hall in private? Who is it, cause I have to know who I have a "contract" with, wich does not allow what I am actually want to do with my servers.

[boxman80 964]

First of all, that's fine and I can 100% see where you are coming from with it, your reasons for playing and running a non-hive server are well founded and I'm pretty sure most decent Day Z gamers won't disagree with them. I would even be tempted to play a few games on private hives myself.

However it's horses for courses though and I personally feel overall private hives are detrimental to the community and the navigation of the mod/game. I personally think it's obvious why this community ISNT the place to promote private hives. Again, while I understand the reasons for playing private hive and appreciate there’s a large number playing Day Z who do, it's fairly easy to find out how and why without promoting here, which is the wishes of the development team so I feel it's only fair to respect that - it's their house, their rules.

Stop suspending people talking about this. What? Is it "against the rules"? You know, pot is illegal too but we can't point to a single death in medical history that can be directly attributed to marijuana consumption.

Arghhh.

You spoiled a good post and well made argument by adding a lame pot-head argument into it.

While your statement may be technically correct it doesnt take the social deficiency factors into account as well as the widely acknowledge and recognised fact that marijuana is a feeder drug leading to the harsher drugs that do kill. I've seen it first hand, you can tell my friends parents who buried him at 19 that pot is fine. We don't need more problems, we wouldnt have legalised smoking or alcohol had we known in hindsight the devastating affects they have on others' lives, we already know this about marijuana so why legalise it? Again, it's easy enough to get hold of and use without harsh reprimand for those who chose to use it, why make it even easier and trivialise it's use?

[Falcrist 119]

I personally feel overall private hives are detrimental to the community and the navigation of the mod/game.

I strongly disagree. The social aspects of the game can no longer be tested on the public hives due to exploiting and hacking. Private hives are currently the only place where the development team can actually see how the game plays out when these factors are removed.

The fact is that the state of the public hive is such a disgrace that players are actually starting to leave the game. Weekend activity numbers are now starting to decerase, because there are less players joining up than players who are leaving.

There's no real moderation. Admins who have paid for their own server are completely defenseless against malicious players.

There's no security. Hackers can actually see other player's GUIDs, and use them when they get banned.

There's no effective anti-cheat. Don't even begin to tell me battleye counts.

There's no protection against exploiters. Admins can't even ban someone who combat logs or ghosts.

Because of this, player interaction has been altered to the point that it's no longer even remotely representative of what it would be in a more stable environment.

Because of all of these factors, there's much less incentive to actually play the game and search for bugs and gameplay flaws… which is what we're here for.

Maybe if the hacking weren't so bad, I could tolerate the other issues (including some I haven't mentioned), but even then I wouldn't expect admins who pay actual money for their server to put up with this. I honestly hope nobody's surprised about the proliferation of private hives lately. It's pretty obvious why it's happening.

[boxman80 964]

I strongly disagree. The social aspects of the game can no longer be tested on the public hives due to exploiting and hacking. Private hives are currently the only place where the development team can actually see how the game plays out when these factors are removed.

The fact is that the state of the public hive is such a disgrace that players are actually starting to leave the game. Weekend activity numbers are now starting to decerase, because there are less players joining up than players who are leaving.

There's no real moderation. Admins who have paid for their own server are completely defenseless against malicious players.

There's no security. Hackers can actually see other player's GUIDs, and use them when they get banned.

There's no effective anti-cheat. Don't even begin to tell me battleye counts.

There's no protection against exploiters. Admins can't even ban someone who combat logs or ghosts.

Because of this, player interaction has been altered to the point that it's no longer even remotely representative of what it would be in a more stable environment.

Because of all of these factors, there's much less incentive to actually play the game and search for bugs and gameplay flaws… which is what we're here for.

Maybe if the hacking weren't so bad, I could tolerate the other issues (including some I haven't mentioned), but even then I wouldn't expect admins who pay actual money for their server to put up with this. I honestly hope nobody's surprised about the proliferation of private hives lately. It's pretty obvious why it's happening.

Hacking and cheats are clearly an issue but the game is still playable and players are still playing and providing feedback and analysis of updates, bugs etc. The hacking is clearly an issue, but it is temporary. Better anti-cheat systems will inevitably come, be it with this mod or the stand alone release. In the short term the numbers will gradually subside due to the fact these nuggets are just purely hopping on the band wagon and playing this months most popular game, some other big game will come along soon. As the community settles it will reduce to a more acceptable level I guarantee it.

Private hives aren't contributing anything towards the development of the game and are only providing a more stable environment to play the game in it's present condition. It's that simple. It's fine for those who do wish to play private (and again I can fully understand why they do so) but this clearly inst helping the development of the mod; what if we all decided to do that 4 months ago ?

If people are leaving the game that's fair enough and it's their prerogative and probably good for the game - are these really the people the mod was aimed at? Are these really the people who would be involved in alpha/beta testing a product? There's been a massive influx of players due to the massive hype this mod has received from game publications now that has attracted gamers outside the original target audience demographic. This mod has a very specific target audience and like it or not, many people have come here with the wrong impression of the game, with the belief this mod is supposed to be in a playable state (which it isnt and nor has it been claimed as such!) or even just with the sole purpose to cause problems.

In reference to server admins being tightly bound - no one makes admins get their own servers, they make the choice to buy into this mod that is still heavily in development of their own accord and it isn't essential to have a server of your own. The mod it's self is basically an experiment and server rental is heavily publicised with the rules and conditions before hand - if people don't do their research it's their own fault.

Before you bash me, i'll make it clear we DONT have our own community Day Z server (despite us having the players and money to do so) purely because we feel it's not worth our while just yet because of the problems you have stated, and I agree that there are issues and we made our decision based on this. But note we haven't gone private hive either.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Box

[suspense 210]

I would like to hear some actual constructive comments and or debate regarding hive vs non hive servers. Emulators are not illegal in their truest state so just drop it. Come on community, lets hear some pro and or non-hive server pointers and debate.

Why aren't we talking about why rocket does not allow non hive servers? Why aren't we talking about possible benefits of non hive and hive servers? I'll tell you why, because some guy came in here and started derailing using bogus comments about emulation being illegal.

I will respect your choice to not continue the discussion, and with that, i will leave the thread from this post on. However, i wanted to make one last comment on your "latest" response to me.

You base your arguements on US and Canadian law, i spent the last few hours reading through the registrars of BI/DayZ and their other titles, and its under european law, which only strengthens my arguements. If you seriously feel for private hives, i suggest you read up on european law.

[Falcrist 119]

Hacking and cheats are clearly an issue but the game is still playable

It's really not. I personally haven't had a single play session where I haven't run across multiple instances of hacking in WEEKS. It's no longer possible to play the game the way it was intended. That's the main reason (possibly the only reason) that the playerbase is starting to shrink.

Private hives aren't contributing anything towards the development of the game and are only providing a more stable environment to play the game in it's present condition.

And why is this? Why is it that people who play on private hives can't contribute to the development of this alpha? You mean, because someone plays on a private server, he or she is incapable of providing feedback? Utter nonsense.

If people are leaving the game that's fair enough and it's their prerogative and probably good for the game - are these really the people the mod was aimed at?

Yes. These are exactly the people the mod is aimed at. They're not leaving because “OMG BUGZ”. They're leaving because they can't even test the game anymore. There are certainly people leaving because they don't like the game, but the plateau and current decline directly coincides with the hacking epidemic.

In reference to server admins being tightly bound - no one makes admins get their own servers, they make the choice to buy into this mod that is still heavily in development of their own accord and it isn't essential to have a server of your own. The mod it's self is basically an experiment and server rental is heavily publicised with the rules and conditions before hand - if people don't do their research it's their own fault.

What are you talking about? We're not talking about people running hive servers. We're talking about non-hive servers.

One of the main reasons there are non-hive servers is because admins have no rights. If Rocket want's fewer private hives, he'll have to provide admins with more control over the server that they're paying for.

[senor_rall 5]

It's really not. I personally haven't had a single play session where I haven't run across multiple instances of hacking in WEEKS. It's no longer possible to play the game the way it was intended. That's the main reason (possibly the only reason) that the playerbase is starting to shrink.

And why is this? Why is it that people who play on private hives can't contribute to the development of this alpha? You mean, because someone plays on a private server, he or she is incapable of providing feedback? Utter nonsense.

Yes. These are exactly the people the mod is aimed at. They're not leaving because “OMG BUGZ”. They're leaving because they can't even test the game anymore. There are certainly people leaving because they don't like the game, but the plateau and current decline directly coincides with the hacking epidemic.

What are you talking about? We're not talking about people running hive servers. We're talking about non-hive servers.

One of the main reasons there are non-hive servers is because admins have no rights. If Rocket want's fewer private hives, he'll have to provide admins with more control over the server that they're paying for.

Everything in this entire post is spot on. And the hacking is wildly out of control. Like you said in your post: "haven't had a single play session where I haven't run across multiple instances of hacking in WEEKS". This is the unfortunate, sad, reality of the current DayZ state. Don't misunderstand me though. The development of DayZ is superb! However, these "hackers" (they're really called "script kiddies") are sucking the life out of his mod. They are enemies, and in one way or the other, are halting the progress of DayZ.

[Legacy (DayZ) 1091]

Alright. Here is the deal...

You're allowed to discuss about private hives/private servers, you just can't link or instruct on how to do them. At the moment the DayZ Team are not supporting this as they are probably busy with multiple other things, infact I would like to say that most things not supported via DayZ (Private Hives, Lingor Island, etc... ) are probably allowed to be discussed without punishment as long as you don't explain how to do so. While I encourage and support what you do, I will still not state how to do it nor allow anyone to do so... Even if it is ridiculously easy to find out how.

I like what you're doing, and the cause you're doing it for. I play a private hive server and I've actually had some fun, they banned the morons who troll the servers, rid of the scripters and hackers, and don't have to be severely limited down. This is a mod for the community, and as the community you should have the right to manage your own communities server in most ways possible, when it comes down to administration especially. What I do suggest from the DayZ Staff as a next step is this: Optional private hives, while users may continue to stay on public hives they should have the option to put up their servers on private hives, give users more choice with their freedom.

Close communities that know what they are doing, and actually take care of their communities and servers well turn out to be a closely knitted community that everyone gets to know each other in the end and overall creates a better experience within itself, it highly interests me because of the mass potential it could create because the players can trust in the administrators again when it comes down to a situation.

[Vraal 10]

What on earth are people arguing about in this thread?

First of all, Rocket has given explicit approval to private hives already. The exact quote is shown below. Follow the quote back to it's own thread if you want to read more.

In addition, a modification of dayz is no different than DayZ itself. Let me remind you all that DayZ is itself a mod of ArmA2. If private hives are theft because they're based on Rocket's work, then DayZ is theft because it's based on BIS's work.

UPDATE FROM ROCKET:"... recommend at the moment to do private servers for the live streams. And that actually brings up a good issue because a lot of people have been asking for the ability to create private servers or separate hives and things like that. And I think that's something we need to seriously think about as well going forward, um... you know I wanted to keep it like it is at the moment to get the message out there, to say: "This is a multiplayer game!", to the people we could use for financing and things like that. If they saw that the idea could be taken as a single-player game then they would have gone for that. So what we've done here is we've, you know the gamers have spoken and said "we wanna see more of this", so... we don't have to worry about that so much. So I think that we can probably come to some solution here and in the short term that would help with the hacking".

Transcribed from his livestream with Machinima:

In a nut shell that means he was worried that private hives/servers would have been abused for the "private" function, aka having a server to yourself with 1/50 players so you can experience the game as a single-player mode, which goes against his "vision" that people like so much to misquote and misinterpret. Hope that clears up some of the broken-record responses about taking things Rocket has said and twisting them around to suit your cause.

I like how everyone in this thread ignored this post.

[Falcrist 119]

Alright. Here is the deal...

You're allowed to discuss about private hives/private servers, you just can't link or instruct on how to do them. At the moment the DayZ Team are not supporting this as they are probably busy with multiple other things, infact I would like to say that most things not supported via DayZ (Private Hives, Lingor Island, etc... ) are probably allowed to be discussed without punishment as long as you don't explain how to do so. While I encourage and support what you do, I will still not state how to do it nor allow anyone to do so... Even if it is ridiculously easy to find out how.

I like what you're doing, and the cause you're doing it for. I play a private hive server and I've actually had some fun, they banned the morons who troll the servers, rid of the scripters and hackers, and don't have to be severely limited down. This is a mod for the community, and as the community you should have the right to manage your own communities server in most ways possible, when it comes down to administration especially. What I do suggest from the DayZ Staff as a next step is this: Optional private hives, while users may continue to stay on public hives they should have the option to put up their servers on private hives, give users more choice with their freedom.

Close communities that know what they are doing, and actually take care of their communities and servers well turn out to be a closely knitted community that everyone gets to know each other in the end and overall creates a better experience within itself, it highly interests me because of the mass potential it could create because the players can trust in the administrators again when it comes down to a situation.

Thank's for the support and the confirmation. I hope you don't mind if I quote you on this at some point.

Either way, DIAMONDS *cough* I mean: BEANS to you!