I support hackers! Yes, please go hack!

[Fireworks 24]

Okay, I'm partially lying with the thread title. But before you go into quick reply and bash the hell out of me, at least hear me out. I know everyone is tired of seeing threads related to hackers, but I believe you may find some of my points interesting. Posting after yet another "Thunderdome" hack when I had been previously suited up with top-end gear in an intense standoff at our camp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4d010W9ljU

Note: My voice was not recorded in the video here, but it basically went something like: Okay I'm looking at the base... no movement... SH** FU**... Thunderdome... Alt+F4 just killed me, dafuq?

Surprisingly enough, even trying to Alt+F4 killed me this time. Amazing that even a system command like that can be intercepted... Below are some common quotes I see related to hacking, and my thoughts about them.

1. "Well... it's just because BattlEye is terrible!"

Okay... I fail to see how this suddenly makes it no one's fault that hacking is rampant. If something is terrible at preventing hackers, DON'T USE IT. Either code your own external solution, or figure out another way to make it happen. It's obvious the people at BattlEye don't care about what's happening and have yet to prove they do.

2. "Okay... well... why fix it when the standalone is coming out? Just wait for that..."

I'm actually okay with this, and am going to do just that. However, I fear that many others will do the same and the mod as we know it will die (until the standalone that is). I suppose this is okay, however it may have an impact on how many trust that the problem will be fixed in the standalone. I really just want anything from Rocket, anything at all about how this is currently being handled and how it will be handled in the standalone (if I'm wrong and he has said something, please correct me!). Leaving the entire community guessing is just not fair to us. I like Rocket; he is very transparent about everything except this. I don't even care if he announces that he won't be doing anything about hacking until the standalone. In fact, I'd perfectly understand that. But don't leave an entire community wondering what's going on!

3. "I'd rather have the unplayable issues fixed like the massive graphic artifacts."

I'd rather have 1000 bugs than have to deal with hackers. I don't care if I have to be careful not to overload my backpack and delete rare items instantly. I don't care if I have to toggle my video memory back and forth to fix massive artifacts. The one thing I cannot handle is when I spend hours collecting loot, or having an intense battle against another group of players, and some douche hits a button and sinks the entire server.

4. "Stop complaining, I'm tired about seeing so many of these posts."

I took this position a few days ago. However, I have now decided that it may in fact be better that the forums are flooded so much, as this definitely sheds light on a critical issue. As rate of hackers go up, the rate of posts about them go up, and thus the rate of attention given to it should go up as well. So until then, I don't really care anymore that 50% of the forums is related to hacking now until something is done (or said).

5. "Just play on low-populated servers. There aren't hackers there."

I agree that most of the time the hackers target the 30-50 player servers. However, I have been affected by hacking on lower populated servers as well. Not to mention, the populated servers are where the action is at anyway. Once you realize that the end-game in DayZ is the PvP, the goal is to find and kill others, not hide on low-populated servers hoarding loot.

6. "Do you really support hackers?"

Okay, I have to be careful about how I express my views on this one. First of all, I do not support hacking in any way, shape, or form. I am not telling anyone to go download hacks, etc. I simply want to bring up a question/perspective for you all to debate, as I want feedback as to what you think about it.

The hacking at this point is so bad, that the game is almost unplayable. The almost part meaning that you can still have some fun with a friend or two on a very low populated server playing the earlier gameplay stages of the game (e.g. basic loot collection/survival). For the veterans, however, the game is basically ruined. So it would almost be interesting to encourage hackers at this point. I'd rather have a highly concentrated number of hackers in one week, forcing the issue to be addressed, then have hacking slowly kill the game over a few months. This is basically happening anyway... I bet many of the victims of hacking turn to it themselves out of rage or disappointment of losing items. Let's not start a flame war about this, or go around quoting me saying I'm supporting hacking. I am definitely not. It's just an interesting perspective to chew over.

7. "Well... is it really Rocket's fault?"

The hacking itself is definitely not. First of all, there is no way he could have predicted that this mod would have taken off so fast like this. There was just no reason to look into more hack-prevention techniques back when the mod was less popular. And honestly I do feel bad for Rocket a bit. He faces some difficult questions and dealing with all of this commotion about hacking must be stressful, to say the least.

What is partially his fault, however, is letting the community know what the deal is. If I could say one thing to Rocket it would be this:

I can totally understand putting most of your effort into the standalone at this point. I respect you very highly as a developer and am glad that you are the man behind this amazing project. However, please address your community about this! Let us know you understand, what your plans are, and what we can expect.

I'm going to summarize my main points below:

1. Hacking is increasing at a seemingly exponential rate, and at this point is ridiculously out of control.

2. The community has a right to vent about it on the forums until we are given something about what is being done.

3. I do not support hackers, but do not care if it becomes rampant, as it will force the issue to be addressed.

4. I will be taking a huge step back from the game until the standalone.

Please feel free to leave your feedback on my views, as I am interested to hear the voices of other DayZ players and veterans. Let's keep this as much of an intelligent discussion as possible, and not turn this into another flame thread in which people attack each other. Thanks for taking the time to read!

Edited August 7, 2012 by Fireworks

[suspense 210]

I'm going to summarize my main points below:

1. Hacking is increasing at a seemingly exponential rate, and at this point is ridiculously out of control.

2. The community has a right to vent about it on the forums until we are given something about what is being done.

3. I do not support hackers, but do not care if it becomes rampant, as it will force the issue to be addressed.

4. I will be taking a huge step back from the game until the standalone.

2, you wont be "given" something about what is being done. You never ever speak of anti-cheat as a company, the only thing you can say is "we are working on it" which they are, and you can see this by looking at my thread -> http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/59998-battleyes-activity-updated-daily-with-the-effects-of-active-banwaves/

4, good idea, this is what everyone should be doing. Play the mod as-is, or wait. Or do both.

[Elenkel 50]

2, you wont be "given" something about what is being done. You never ever speak of anti-cheat as a company, the only thing you can say is "we are working on it" which they are, and you can see this by looking at my thread -> http://dayzmod.com/f...ctive-banwaves/

4, good idea, this is what everyone should be doing. Play the mod as-is, or wait. Or do both.

The ban waves are pretty pointless. You can buy ARMA 2 keys in bulk at $2 a piece, although I suspect that the keys were stolen (though I doubt hackers care about that).

Edited August 7, 2012 by Elenkel

[SystemiK 366]

In spite of the hundreds of thousands of words that have been written about hacking in DayZ, it still all boils down to two rather simple choices.

- Continue to play (in spite of the hacks)

- Don't continue to play (because of the hacks)

Sorry for being so blunt, but it really is that simple.

[Fireworks 24]

2, you wont be "given" something about what is being done. You never ever speak of anti-cheat as a company, the only thing you can say is "we are working on it" which they are, and you can see this by looking at my thread -> http://dayzmod.com/f...ctive-banwaves/

All I want is an official announcement on the subject. Something more than just saying it's in the hands of BattlEye. That just doesn't seem good enough for me.

[Elenkel 50]

In spite of the hundreds of thousands of words that have been written about hacking in DayZ, it still all boils down to two rather simple choices.

- Continue to play (in spite of the hacks)

- Don't continue to play (because of the hacks)

Sorry for being so blunt, but it really is that simple.

There is a third choice which increasingly people are starting to take - become a hacker.

[SystemiK 366]

There is a third choice which increasingly people are starting to take - become a hacker.

That is still choice #2: (Continue to play)

[BaitedHook 24]

the mod base on this engine will be a sinking ship. would be a waste of everyone's time trying to fix her up.

best to go stand alone at this point, if rocket need to take the game down temporarily like most game do during the alpha to beta transition then so be it. its good for the long run, and he will have more manpower to fill his vision. granted he still need to stay involved with the community during this transition

[tsandrey 379]

There is a third choice which increasingly people are starting to take - become a hacker.

"Become a hacker" lol

Only douches that live in their moms basement cheat in a game like DayZ

[suspense 210]

The ban waves are pretty pointless. You can buy ARMA 2 keys in bulk at $2 a piece, although I suspect that the keys were stolen (though I doubt hackers care about that).

The keys are not stolen, i dont know where this myth comes from. You get banned, you purchase another legit copy. All you can do is banwaves, you can never hack-proof a game, no anti cheat system has been ever since the beginning of games, and it wont, ever.

All I want is an official announcement on the subject. Something more than just saying it's in the hands of BattlEye. That just doesn't seem good enough for me.

You wont get this, what exactly do you want them to say? They cant speak of anything technical, they cant give any hints as what they are doing, they cant tell you any ideas of the future and what they are thinking in order to "assist" in the prevention, so what exactly do you want to hear?

Edited August 7, 2012 by Suspenselol

[Solstyce 1]

Some nice points but i keep telling that the standalone is just an option where this development will continue.

Not that i dont support Rocket on this but Bohemia are just Bohemia and wont give their engine so easily for a game thats doing perfectly as a mod and boost up the sales of arma.People just want standalone because they think that it will be free as long its free now as a mod....Just silly.

Also on the bugs in game->>> alpha version, theres no room to complain since we are given the very best we can get right now at this point.

The hackers were fixed at some point but when more and more people came they got different ways of hacking and its not easy to fix it at the same time as updating the game.

[Elenkel 50]

The keys are not stolen, i dont know where this myth comes from. You get banned, you purchase another legit copy. All you can do is banwaves, you can never hack-proof a game, no anti cheat system has been ever since the beginning of games, and it wont, ever.

Well, in that case then the banwaves are simply formalities meant to appease the whining playerbase, so that the devs can have something to point at and say "we are doing something". Regretfully in terms of practical effect banwaves do nothing to deter nor prevent hacking. If a hacker has enough spare change for a hotdog with drink, then he can simply get back on his feet.

While it's impossible to completely eradicate hacking, there are countless games with superior anti-cheats which go beyond merely "ban them later". Diablo 3 for example instantly kick you off server (then ban you later) if you start using hacks. BattlEye is bad. It's unfair to justify its terribleness just because other anti-systems aren't perfect, even though they are vastly superior.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Elenkel

[Delta Smoke 01 765]

I agree with what your saying. I dont agree with the topic title. Dont be surprised if this ends up being romoved. We all hate hackers. I died twice in 24 hours to the same hack. It sucks. What people dont understand (and i dont know why, rocket has said it soooo many times) is that NOTHING can be done about it when the game is in mod status. To do so would require rewriting arma 2 and is simply, not worth the effort when he can just concentrate on the stand alone. People need to wise up and accept that it is what it is. Would you rather have a working mod in about 3/4 months, at the stage it is now with no new content whatsoever. Or a kick ass stand alone game with no hacks, no alt+f4 and such, WITH many new features, in around 2/3 months. Simple answer imo.

[Teiwaz 45]

I take it you play on US servers?

There you have it.

I'm of the impression that the average skill level in the U.S. (on the U.S. servers) is way lower than f.e. EU or RU. Therefor more of that script-kiddy brats exist and therefor hacking is way more often seen.

Except for one time when I was killed by a teleport hacker on 1 server I never played before and never played thereafter, I still have to see Thunderdome or anything else that looks like a hack.

[Fireworks 24]

You wont get this, what exactly do you want them to say? They cant speak of anything technical, they cant give any hints as what they are doing, they cant tell you any ideas of the future and what they are thinking in order to "assist" in the prevention, so what exactly do you want to hear?

And why can't they? If they have plans to prevent hacking, posting that prevention is happening will have two effects: scare any hackers into stopping and showing the community that something is being done. It's not like if they post their plans that they would become ineffective. I'm not saying Rocket should reveal his techniques, but completely ignoring the issue altogether just doesn't feel right.

[suspense 210]

Well, in that case then the banwaves are simply formalities meant to appease the whining playerbase, so that the devs can have something to point at and say "we are doing something". Regretfully in terms of practical effect banwaves do nothing to deter nor prevent hacking. If a hacker has enough spare change for a hotdog with drink, then he can simply get back on his feet.

While it's impossible to completely eradicate hacking, there are countless games with superior anti-cheats which go beyond merely "ban them later". Diablo 3 for example instantly kick you off server (then ban you later) if you start using hacks. BattlEye is bad. It's unfair to justify its terribleness just because other anti-systems aren't perfect, even though they are vastly superior.

What? I know of several Diablo 3 bots right now, that has been running fine since release of the game, with not a single banwave, and not a single detection. Same goes for WoW, did you know, that the most popular WoW bot, has been completely undetected and not touched since 2009? Good anti cheat, is it not? ;)

And why can't they? If they have plans to prevent hacking, posting that prevention is happening will have two effects: scare any hackers into stopping and showing the community that something is being done. It's not like if they post their plans that they would become ineffective. I'm not saying Rocket should reveal his techniques, but completely ignoring the issue altogether just doesn't feel right.

You dont "scare" hackers. Hackers are devided into 2 groups.

1, the actual skilled reverse engineers that really dont hack, but spend their time reversing and exploiting anti cheat systems and games, for the challenge of exactly this. Its nothing but a challenge, they then release their work to prove that they "made it"

2, the "kids" or "Users" that uses the utilities from the reverses in order to actually cheat in the game.

A better anti-cheat system, only attracts more people to attempt to exploit it.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Suspenselol

[A Bush killed me 189]

[A Bush killed me 189]

-_-

Edited August 7, 2012 by A Bush killed me

[Fireworks 24]

I agree with what your saying. I dont agree with the topic title. Dont be surprised if this ends up being romoved. We all hate hackers. I died twice in 24 hours to the same hack. It sucks. What people dont understand (and i dont know why, rocket has said it soooo many times) is that NOTHING can be done about it when the game is in mod status. To do so would require rewriting arma 2 and is simply, not worth the effort when he can just concentrate on the stand alone. People need to wise up and accept that it is what it is. Would you rather have a working mod in about 3/4 months, at the stage it is now with no new content whatsoever. Or a kick ass stand alone game with no hacks, no alt+f4 and such, WITH many new features, in around 2/3 months. Simple answer imo.

If you want me to change the title, please let me know. My goal isn't to cause a problem, just have a more organized discussion about it. I can totally understand concentrating on the standalone. It's just that the community is in confused, concerned, and ultimately just in the dark about this. If it's true that nothing can be done at all, that's fine, but it's difficult to sit by wondering what is going on, or attempting to dig up things that Rocket has said about the issue in certain interviews and what not to try to see what his own views are.

[A Bush killed me 189]

my internet is exploding LOL so many doubles of a double. sry

[tsandrey 379]

Well, in that case then the banwaves are simply formalities meant to appease the whining playerbase, so that the devs can have something to point at and say "we are doing something". Regretfully in terms of practical effect banwaves do nothing to deter nor prevent hacking. If a hacker has enough spare change for a hotdog with drink, then he can simply get back on his feet.

While it's impossible to completely eradicate hacking, there are countless games with superior anti-cheats which go beyond merely "ban them later". Diablo 3 for example instantly kick you off server (then ban you later) if you start using hacks. BattlEye is bad. It's unfair to justify its terribleness just because other anti-systems aren't perfect, even though they are vastly superior.

Battleye is not bad, it's just that the Arma engine allows scripts! THIS IS A MOD! People don't realize that! They won't disable scripts, it's there for a purpose.

And I would be perfectly happy if they used Punkbuster on standalone, cause PB is the best anti-cheat (I would be fine if they keep Battleye)

[Rudson (DayZ) 61]

Hey Mr. Fireworks.

I can understand your frustration about the hacking problem but first of all there will always be hackers, fucking always. No matter how big the game is like BF3 for example. The problem on Arma is that it is a modfriendly game. And modfriendly games are most often easier to hack. Therefor you just have to deal with it, everybody does. This is still Alpha, and you don´t come up with a solution about the hackingproblem in this short timespan! Anticheat is always miles behind the cheaters, because nobody, not even companys support it enough. I played so many games they all were protected, from VAC, ESL WIRE - even there people managed to run hacks -, Punkbuster. These are big anticheattitles but as useless as shit.

If fucking hackers want to hack, they simply do. That you are writing that huge topic with that stupid Headline, i don´t know man, i can not say i like your strange way of adressing it to the developers.

[Teiwaz 45]

Would you rather have a working mod in about 3/4 months, at the stage it is now with no new content whatsoever. Or a kick ass stand alone game with no hacks, no alt+f4 and such, WITH many new features, in around 2/3 months. Simple answer imo.

Depends. I'm definitely not going to BUY a standalone, I just bought Arma2 (which I otherwise would never ever have touched because I know how fucking bugged this game is).

Give the standalone away for free to those people who already own Arma2 and play DayZ, and sell it to new players who then won't have to buy Arma2. But fuck you big time if you just want to cash in on the hype you created, as simple as that.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Teiwaz

[tsandrey 379]

Depends. I'm definitely not going to BUY a standalone, I just bought Arma2 (which I otherwise would never ever have touched because I know how fucking bugged this game is).

Give the standalone away for free for those people who already own Arma2 and play DayZ, and sell it to new players who then won't have to buy Arma2. As simple as that.

Sadly, it won't happen. It would mean that milions of people get the game for free. Maybe a discount, though? If you have Arma OA in your Steam Games, you get a 30% discount on DayZ! That would be cool

[calthehunter 61]

It's simple, don't go on a full server, go on a half-full server. The fools just want to showboat their hax0r skillz to a full audience. And, my friend, I think you will be waiting some time for your standalone, I just DO NOT see it happening in September. (Think of it like when they say "such-n-such game is coming out Dec. 31, 2012", well, no it's not. More then likely it'll be February or March, if not later. I'm sure they hope it's out by then.) So while you take a step back, imma take all your beans and the beans you would've eaten.

Edited August 7, 2012 by calthehunter