Why the "HIVE" won't work until we have some stability

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

It hurts. it hurts me so much.

I am not sure if you are actually retarded or just trolling.

CCP the devs of EVE.

Made a game which is one single universe, persistent with multiple thousand players online at once. [1 Tranquility Server with everyone on it]

In Eve you can "lose everything at once" like in DayZ. [Die and your stuff is gone vs. your ship is destroyed and it's gone forever]

It is a sandbox/player driven game with even more butthurt people like you. [You can shoot people in the face or go the friendly route]

So DayZ is kinda similar to EVE.

These people know how to run that "HIVE" thing.

HOW IS THIS FUCKING RELEVANT TO MY THREAD?!?!

My thread isn't about "how to make a HIVE server work" it's about how broken the game engine is, and how HACKERS are using the HIVE to FUCK EVERYONE.

OH

MY

GOD!

~Sol

[SirSlayer 14]

OH

MY

GOD!

4. Map size

The map is way too small to have any form of "tranquility" server, where all players exist on the same map/instance. If the game was to be split into smaller instances with a smaller population limit, it would be no different to now, again strengthening the argument for private servers being allowed. Making a large enough map for all or at least most of the current GUID population to play on will take YEARS to build. How long are you going to wait?

Eve has one single sharded universe. All players on "one map".

2. It's slow

Disabling the respawn button, was to loosen the load on the server. Great lot of help that was now when the hackers from reason #1 teleport you into the middle of the ocean, and the shore is a 3 hour swim away. I'm glad the server load is better, I'd sure hate to waste MY time.

They deal with loads of server load. ~20k+ at any given time a day. You are also able to suicide.

5. Cost

To support the current player base of 800k+ players, this HIVE server would need to be semi Google capacity. Last time I checked rocket was doing this shit for free... Dreaming about a central server where everyone plays is a liability from his point of view. It would be far more profitable for him to just release the shit and let us play the way we want.

It is very well possible. Ask CPP. Youtube

1. The login/out data recorded is useless... why?

When a hacker starts mass killing the server, I log the fuck out. This now logs me as an ALT+F4 even though I'm sure as shit not going to hang around while some knob-jockey has his merry way with me. The log data has no way of distinguishing the reason someone logged in or out... it's sure as fuck not gonna say "Sol had to go suddenly because he has a sick 3 year old" or "Sol had to go because a client rang and he had to leave for a meeting". After all of that, I have to check my fucking "karma" status to make sure I'm not being flagged for logging out? Fuck me.

They also do not have to deal with a lot of "hackers" and got a good solution for "Alt+f4"

Okay now explain to me how it doesn't tackle your topic.

Edited August 5, 2012 by SirSlayer

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

By completely dismissing the fact that the HIVE is currently not working.

I never said it couldn't be fixed... but it need to be re-routed at least for now.

The hackers are destroying this game, and by dumping MANDATORY participation to the HIVE will almost 100% eliminate the problem.

~Sol

[SirSlayer 14]

By completely dismissing the fact that the HIVE is currently not working.

I never said it couldn't be fixed... but it need to be re-routed at least for now.

The hackers are destroying this game, and by dumping MANDATORY participation to the HIVE will almost 100% eliminate the problem.

~Sol

What? Now I didn't miss the point or why is there no snarky comment ?

[Virfortis 111]

Um, dude? You're trying to have an intelligent conversation about a negative aspect of a game...in the forums...the breeding pit of the fanboys?

There isn't that much intelligence here, sorry man.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

What? Now I didn't miss the point or why is there no snarky comment ?

Because you replied with valid points.

Thank you for that, but yes still... it doesn't address the fact that by allowing private servers and private HIVE systems, at least temporarily... it will solve 90% of the complaints and problems from 90% of the user base,

Um, dude? You're trying to have an intelligent conversation about a negative aspect of a game...in the forums...the breeding pit of the fanboys?

There isn't that much intelligence here, sorry man.

I figured this out pretty fast... sadly I was hoping for more, but I was sorely mistaken.

~Sol

Edited August 5, 2012 by Sol

[SirSlayer 14]

Um, dude? You're trying to have an intelligent conversation about a negative aspect of a game...in the forums...the breeding pit of the fanboys?

There isn't that much intelligence here, sorry man.

After trying hard enough it actually seemed to work.

Though it's hard to state an opinion here :P

Also the more I think of the idea the more I like it. Rocket should have a talk with the guys from CCP.

Plus something ontopic, I actually think non-hive has it's uses. I wish I could find a server which recently started without people sniping every part of the map in ghillie suits and AS50's.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

After trying hard enough it actually seemed to work.

Though it's hard to state an opinion here :P

Also the more I think of the idea the more I like it. Rocket should have a talk with the guys from CCP.

Plus something ontopic, I actually think non-hive has it's uses. I wish I could find a server which recently started without people sniping every part of the map in ghillie suits and AS50's.

Hey I agree that getting help in the long run isn't a bad idea... I'm sure he could use all the help he could get.

Making a larger map is, I think, still going to be a massive undertaking that will take a lot longer than most people realise. This would easily be the biggest challenge in making the terrain different enough without simply repeating Chernarus over and over again, rotating the map each time to give "variety".

I'm all for private servers... since I'd no longer be at the mercy of abusive admins, inattentive admins, greifers and hackers.

~Sol

[SirSlayer 14]

Making a larger map is, I think, still going to be a massive undertaking that will take a lot longer than most people realise. This would easily be the biggest challenge in making the terrain different enough without simply repeating Chernarus over and over again, rotating the map each time to give "variety".

Ever heard of random generation ? Also you are still able to modify the map after taste.

The only problem which would come with a real "one server game" is that you NEED a subscription styled payment for the upkeep of servers.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

Ever heard of random generation ? Also you are still able to modify the map after taste.

The only problem which would come with a real "one server game" is that you NEED a subscription styled payment for the upkeep of servers.

Random generation yields unpredictable and often ugly results. It would need to be procedurally generated, which takes a long time to make nice algorythms, especially if you want nice variations in structure design (otherwise it ends up looking a little copypasta).

Again, these types of things are ideal, I just can't them happening in the time frame that Rocket has outlined with standalone unless of course, he's been doing stuff without telling us. I'm fairly certain though that he's busy working on the current mod and not secretly working on standalone.

Honestly, he has already proven that this mod has merit... He should call it a complete feature set now, move to beta, fix the bugs then move on to standalone. The "experiment" has already taken place, and has proven the value of the project. Anything from now on, is not really an experiment any more...

On the note of subscription, I do agree there needs to be some form of payment being made to maintain. I'm not entirely convinced a subscription is the only way to go, rather a micro income system would probably also work. Giving the game away free, and allowing people to play for free, but having a "shop" where items can be purchased for real money. One thing I do agree about a subscription though is, it wouldn't cause any imbalance in the game (like being able to buy a high powered military grade weapon for real money, that's better than any other gun in the game, etc). doing so however might eliminate a large player base (mostly kids, so I don't really care) but keeping it free would broaden the demographic massively.

~Sol

[Lysander_of_Sparta 43]

To tell you the truth, I really don't have any problem with the way Rocket runs this mod. He can fucking turn the ocean pink for all I care. I really don't see a problem with using the HIVE. It works, and that's all I care about.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

To tell you the truth, I really don't have any problem with the way Rocket runs this mod. He can fucking turn the ocean pink for all I care. I really don't see a problem with using the HIVE. It works, and that's all I care about.

If you're happy with the hackers, then again... I'm not forcing you to go anywhere else.

I personally dislike it enough to want private servers. I think there are enough other people, also fed up with it, to warrant this.

~Sol

[gantonski 16]

i'm not pro at flowcharts okay.. but i just read this whole thread and couldnt believe how dense people were being.

i've attached an image with what i think is only the general sense of what i think sol is trying to say. because its general, people may continue to shit on the ideas he's trying to discuss. maybe even shit on me.. but infographics are a good way to make people shut up, since it seems to be the least CONFUSING (though, still pretty general in this case)..

anyways, hopefully this helps.

i support you, sol!

~gantonski

[Jackson Pembrandt 2]

Honestly, he has already proven that this mod has merit... He should call it a complete feature set now, move to beta, fix the bugs then move on to standalone. The "experiment" has already taken place, and has proven the value of the project. Anything from now on, is not really an experiment any more...

Actually, that assumes a lot about the nature of the experiment and the Rocket's goal in making this mod in the first place. While we've all seen that it's incredibly popular as is, we've no idea the full extent of the things he intends to be part of it. The only thing we can state for certain is that the current set of features are incredibly popular.

On the note of subscription, I do agree there needs to be some form of payment being made to maintain. I'm not entirely convinced a subscription is the only way to go, rather a micro income system would probably also work. Giving the game away free, and allowing people to play for free, but having a "shop" where items can be purchased for real money. One thing I do agree about a subscription though is, it wouldn't cause any imbalance in the game (like being able to buy a high powered military grade weapon for real money, that's better than any other gun in the game, etc). doing so however might eliminate a large player base (mostly kids, so I don't really care) but keeping it free would broaden the demographic massively.

Subscription is the only method that makes any sense without killing what makes the game so unique. The only micro-transactions that make sense would be tweaks to the starting kits. Any purchases that added to that kit would ruin the whole point of the game. Even if the purchase only changed the starting kit for a single respawn, it wouldn't work. That model would lead to bandit/griefer gangs farming respawn points for easy loot.

As for the whole issue of private vs public HIVE servers, it's a matter of game dynamics. Just like the issue of micro-transactions, a private server or HIVE alters the community dynamic. Once you set up restrictions on who can get onto a server, the cuthroat nature of the game drops. How a player is granted access to the server becomes a critical factor in determining social interaction in the game. Is it white-listing, friends only, black-listing, or some other structure? If it's a friends only server, the population is going to have a harder time reaching capacity than a black-listing server. White-listing servers will have the problem of managing access requests. On top of that, having private servers will add custom server rules to the mix. PvE only is just the tip of the iceberg.

While allowing private servers might eliminate the issue with hackers now, it would also kill the most significant part of the game. Once the community is split, they aren't going to want to be shoved back together once DayZ goes standalone.

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

i'm not pro at flowcharts okay.. but i just read this whole thread and couldnt believe how dense people were being.

i've attached an image with what i think is only the general sense of what i think sol is trying to say. because its general, people may continue to shit on the ideas he's trying to discuss. maybe even shit on me.. but infographics are a good way to make people shut up, since it seems to be the least CONFUSING (though, still pretty general in this case)..

anyways, hopefully this helps.

i support you, sol!

~gantonski

Fucking awesome. Thanks for taking the time to do that... it illustrates my view perfectly.

The only downside really to private servers is that, it slightly cuts the immersion because random people aren't going to be there to jump out of a bush and gank you.

Actually, that assumes a lot about the nature of the experiment and the Rocket's goal in making this mod in the first place. While we've all seen that it's incredibly popular as is, we've no idea the full extent of the things he intends to be part of it. The only thing we can state for certain is that the current set of features are incredibly popular.

True and point taken. I guess I hate to see him waste any more time on something that is going to be superceeded by a new engine or standalone version. I think most people would be happy enough to call this complete but I could be wrong.

Subscription is the only method that makes any sense without killing what makes the game so unique. The only micro-transactions that make sense would be tweaks to the starting kits. Any purchases that added to that kit would ruin the whole point of the game. Even if the purchase only changed the starting kit for a single respawn, it wouldn't work. That model would lead to bandit/griefer gangs farming respawn points for easy loot.

Well, not to give away my ideas... but people love looking unique. If you made clothing a micro transaction purchasable item, it wouldn't affect the game as such (in terms of unfair balance etc) but people would pay loads just to look different. Obviously clothing of this nature would "respawn" with your player, as it would be the default look of your character.

As for the whole issue of private vs public HIVE servers, it's a matter of game dynamics. Just like the issue of micro-transactions, a private server or HIVE alters the community dynamic. Once you set up restrictions on who can get onto a server, the cuthroat nature of the game drops. How a player is granted access to the server becomes a critical factor in determining social interaction in the game. Is it white-listing, friends only, black-listing, or some other structure? If it's a friends only server, the population is going to have a harder time reaching capacity than a black-listing server. White-listing servers will have the problem of managing access requests. On top of that, having private servers will add custom server rules to the mix. PvE only is just the tip of the iceberg.

While allowing private servers might eliminate the issue with hackers now, it would also kill the most significant part of the game. Once the community is split, they aren't going to want to be shoved back together once DayZ goes standalone.

Well as I said, it would be a temporary measure, or for people who simply don't want to play in a public environment. If it wasn't for the hackers and such, I would never have even brought this up since I wouldn't have a problem with the HIVE system at all. I think it's a great idea... for the future.

~Sol

Edited August 5, 2012 by Sol

[Jackson Pembrandt 2]

Well, not to give away my ideas... but people love looking unique. If you made clothing a micro transaction purchasable item, it wouldn't affect the game as such (in terms of unfair balance etc) but people would pay loads just to look different. Obviously clothing of this nature would "respawn" with your player, as it would be the default look of your character.

Problem is, in this game, camouflage makes a big difference. In order to make the micro-transaction system worth the bother, there would need to be a significant number of offerings and a significant enough variance between them. I just can't see there being enough potential to be sustainable. Chances are, a few early purchasers might buy that pink t-shirt and then spend the next hour trying to take the damn thing off after it draws attention.

Well as I said, it would be a temporary measure, or for people who simply don't want to play in a public environment. If it wasn't for the hackers and such, I would never have even brought this up since I wouldn't have a problem with the HIVE system at all. I think it's a great idea... for the future.

Unfortunately, once split, it'll be nearly impossible to recombine. There'd be no good justification for removing the feature. Whether it's called a nerf or worse, it's a feature that would have been removed to limit play options. Nothing brings forth fan ire like removing something for the sake of removing it.It's Pandora's Box...

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

Problem is, in this game, camouflage makes a big difference. In order to make the micro-transaction system worth the bother, there would need to be a significant number of offerings and a significant enough variance between them. I just can't see there being enough potential to be sustainable. Chances are, a few early purchasers might buy that pink t-shirt and then spend the next hour trying to take the damn thing off after it draws attention.

Unfortunately, once split, it'll be nearly impossible to recombine. There'd be no good justification for removing the feature. Whether it's called a nerf or worse, it's a feature that would have been removed to limit play options. Nothing brings forth fan ire like removing something for the sake of removing it.It's Pandora's Box...

You bring up a good point with clothing, however I can think of several things that people would pay money for... like a camo Alice pack for example, or special boots that make less noise. I guess we aren't really discussing that here, but it would to have a brain storm about that to see what models might be able to work nicely. I know there's a thread about that already but it's full of "crap" posts (what a surprise!) and hardly worth trying to contribute too.

I think having the separate HIVE setup for non-standalone would be fine... there would be no need to "recombine". Once the bugs and problems areironed out, and the standalone engine has been hacker-proofed, it can go back to the HIVE system leaving the old "DayZ Beta" to the private crowd.

~Sol

[proven 19]

I think a private HIVE hosted by some clans or sponsored by a company could be a really nice thing. As it would be possible for these admins to observe and ban hackers in a more effective way. Sure it would need a ambitious group of players to start such a thing but i'd cleary prefer to play in a small but nice community. I don't need 2000 servers to switch between, especially when 90% of them won't let me join anyway. Sol actually got a nice point of view.

[The OCD 10]

I've read this thread in its entirety and completely agree with the idea behind private servers pretty much eliminating the hacker issue.

The reason EVE's cluster works as well as it does is mainly due to the number of concurrent users, which usually maxes out at 50k-60k and is usually around 20k-30k. DayZ on the other hand is currently at what, at minimum 100k+ players concurrently? Not only would we need a MASSIVE world(i'm talking millions of square miles opposed to the current 225k Chernarus), there would have to be some way to manage the looting system dynamically that's an alternative to "looting" zombies that you kill for the bulk of your gear. Let's face it; one of the most unique aspects of DayZ in its current form is the ability to loot buildings that have dynamically generated loot. If everyone started in the starter areas, the over-saturation of players:loot areas would be insane. This is one of the main reasons why I don't think DayZ should ever consider a massive playable landscape/MMO type scenario with the current mechanics.

That being said, I honestly wouldn't be opposed to 1k-2k players on a map(maybe 25x the size of Chernarus) with actual cities that span for miles and underground subway systems/bunkers etc. that offer persistent building fortification or what have you. But if it were to be a F2P game with an item shop, the only items I'd want to see would be "pay for convenience" opposed to "pay to win". Pay to win games ultimately end in a massive loss of playerbase because people can drop $20 and negate hundreds of hours of playing the game, which is demotivating to say the least to legit players who don't want to spend money on the game. Alternatively, you'd be able to carry an additional 8 pack backpack or something like that, or have hip holsters so you can carry an additional pistol or something similar.

Sol made a good point about the character clothing aspect; people will pay out the ass to look as unique as possible.

With all of that being said, it would be a completely different game at that point. For the short term, I truly believe that private servers with some sort of automatic admin logging(admins' "admin" actions are reported to a central server to hopefully negate admin abuse, whilst giving admins a better tool-set to deal with scripters and server management as a whole) is the best solution to deal with the various issues we have right now.

[DrewDubious 19]

Whoahahaha wow man SO COOL. YOU ARE GENIUS!

~Sol

~Sol

~Sol

~Sol

~Sol

Enough tantrums, it's time out for you! >:(

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

Enough tantrums, it's time out for you! >:(

I wasn't having a tantrum.... I was mocking him.

@TheOCD

Agreed in all aspects. Thanks for stopping by to post :)

~Sol

[haviv[3rdid] 57]

If private servers solve many of the problems that DayZ is facing then that's where the community will end up going (dayZ got to this point because of word of mouth and that will also lead people to those servers). Rocket can't force people to not go to a private server because it is 100% legal.

[Ctrl-Alt-Rage 2]

I'm not going to try to make a long drawn out post about why I agree with Sol.

All I can say is that I stopped playing DayZ about three weeks ago. Why? Because honestly I just don't have fun any more. I didn't get killed by a hacker, I didn't lose gear and I didn't get pissed off because I can't "do what I want to do."

- I stopped playing because the sense of camaraderie isn't where I wished it could be.

- I stopped playing because I was paying 40 bucks a month for a server that I couldn't even adjust the appropriate time zone to make it so my friends and I could enjoy ourselves.

- I stopped playing because I wanted a game like DayZ that allowed me to on occasion just play with my buddies and enjoying killing zombies and scavenging while joking around in voice chat.

Yeah, DayZ is an awesome game. And yes, it's in ALPHA. I get that. Alpha doesn't mean broken, alpha means in a testing phase to iron out the wrinkles. I sincerely believe people forget that. But Alpha doesn't mean I should have to deal with crap that could be avoided if we had access to private servers. When minecraft first came out, I bought a server and it was not advertised and just my friends and I played on it. I paid XX dollars a month to host it and my friends gladly donated to keep the server running.

It's late, I'm tired...so I'll leave my reply with this, (and I doubt I'll reply that often seeing where the attitude of some players goes.)

A private server won't remove the "stress and fear" that we feel when playing on a server. Wondering if we're going to get killed or gambling if that run to the NW airfield will yield results of certain death. There WILL be private servers that allow PVP and PKing. But SOME people want to play the game to immerse themselves in an experience with their friends in a zombie apocalypse. Not an experience with PKers sprinkled with zombies.

I support you, Sol. But if I could be so bold to say to try not to let your emotions get in the way of proving a point. Your points have 100% validity behind them and I'd hate to have them go unread/considered because it can be seen as a flame war.

Thumbs up to you, Sol.

- Mr. McGeeGravyMaker

Edited August 7, 2012 by Ctrl-Alt-Rage

[Sol (DayZ) 132]

Thank you for the support! :D

~Sol

[thehumandove 344]

Okay.

~Sol