The PvP Discussion Thread

[Freyar 8]

And you call other people names when you don't know that punishment act as deterrent in it self? If you get punished for doing something' date=' you'll try to not do it again, simple really. Unless your dumber then ... an insect i guess. (can't think of any animal stupid enough to not stop doing something that causes pain to it self, well griefers maybe, since they keep trying even when the get banned)[/quote']

Haven't been calling anyone names here. While punishment CAN be a deterrent it isn't a deterrent inherently. (Fines are a punishment in some cases, but aren't a deterrent.) An immediate difficulty to overcome the action of shooting another person would be appropriate, but long term "punishments" for players in a game where reputation is tied to a name and is supposed to be acted upon by other players just seems completely out of place.

I yield the fact that something to deter (DETERRENCE) player-killing without making it a punishment (because PvP and player-killing is part of the game), is needed.

Getting the bandit skin even in self defense is a good start, it makes everyone careful about moving around (isn't this what you want as well?) so they don't have to be killed or kill in retaliation. If Retard X, who has 10 murders in 30 mins around Cherno, gets banned for 30 mins when he kills another guy then he'll be more careful who and when he kills next time ( = deterrent).

Getting banned for 30 minutes is counter to what the game is supposed to be. If someone chooses to shoot someone else, that has been said to be a decision that should be available to players. You are punishing while deterring players from taking shots at other players. That said, it would end up with a huge amount of hostile player-to-player actions would become laced with a "do I want to risk being penalized by a meta-system?"

You have spent the last 28 pages shouting 'There is no problem' in order to prevent griefers for being punished. And have shouted that again every time someone has tried to reason with you. I've wasted enough time with you.

No, you completely misread and misinterpreted. Others understand the difference between the words "punishment" and "deterrent", though they are frequently confused for each other. There is a problem, and I understand some people don't like being shot. Fair enough.

There is no deterrent and no major consequence for going on a murder spree from the moment you spawn. The bandit skin is a decent step, but they are saying even that might be removed, i guess the experiment will end sooner then later.

Banning players, and making aggressive players unable to function like other non-aggressive players is NOT the way to go.

If you wanted to okay a game where everything you did was always safe from outside forces' date=' why are you playing a survival game where loss and death are a very real possibility?[/quote']

[telgriff@gmail.com 0]

I was initially against the whole anti PVP thing, but lately its getting worse and worse. If someone kills you for your gear, your weapon etc fine. That's understandable, its survival and you had the better weapon or food or they were desperate, I get that and that's what this game is about.

But now every American sever and now the NZ server in the few hours its on is being RUINED by people who just kill for points. No gathering items, no getting better weapons, they just find a spot, sit there and snipe anyone they see without warning. Whats the point of the game if all you do is get murdered by random people? I've played this game since its release, I know to avoid the major cities like the plague, but it doesn't stop some PKing little shit ruining it for everyone else who wants to play it the proper way, survival. Who wants to quietly creep through a town, avoiding Z's to get some few precious supplies only to be shot by some jerk who wandered into or was camping the area and saw you (who incidentally wasnt visible when you scout the town before going in). They bee line for the military camps or airports, get the DMR etc and just sit there shooting anyone who comes into sight. They camp the coastal spawn zones shooting people as they spawn in, fire indiscriminately at people who have nothing of value, no one spawns in? They move to another spawn zone and wait there. I spawned in and SPRINTED for the woods, non stop running to get the hell out of the area, within a minute bullets whizzing past me as two PKers took pot shots at me.

They don't play the game, they don't do the survival thing, they don't even loot, they get rifles, hide and kill anyone.

This is not what this mod was about. These people are ruining the game for everyone else, defeating the purpose of sneaking, eliminating those tense moments when you meet someone in the wild and slowly approach to trade. The game is no longer enjoyable and I LOVED this mod. As always some little shits ruined it for the majority. The Aussie/NZ servers were great, you could go in, travel around, see someone, announce, meet up trade food (or gunfight if they shoot back), chat and head on your way, now all you do is avoid everyone and risk getting PK'd for having a fire to cook some meat or crawling through a town to get some water/supplies. Evening travelling in groups is no longer fun. You spend hours getting supplies, repairing vehicles and setting up a camp - whats that? Some little shit saw you and your friends in a town and just shot at you all for no reason then ran off?

Bandit skins were an idea, no FF will not work as it ruins the tense moments of meeting someone. I don't know, have a script that shows where these jerks are on the map or HUD markers who have more than say 5 friendly kills in a set time frame or more than 10 friendly kills etc. Either way the game is ruined because of these people.

[griffinz 2816]

Tell griff what?

[Thesreyn 18]

just gonna say remove murder score from leaderboards.

i really think that would lower the amount pointless killings for sport.

That's probably one of the most elegant and practical ways to reduce random killing that I've heard...

I don't think the killing is a problem, personally (in case that wasn't obvious from my other posts :P) but this right here is a really good idea.

[capitol 2]

so i was just randomly murdered ingame, took 30 rounds to the back. did i see it coming? sort of, i heard him rustling about . im not mad about it, im mad that now i cant even connect back in to go hunt his ass down which means that not only did he steal all my stuff hes neutered my ability to play the game at all.

[Thesreyn 18]

It's not the bandits fault you can't connect.

[Palora 6]

My idea for repercussions:

Use the domination script that kicks ppl who do to much shooting in the base. Modify it to give temporary bans to people who go over a set number of kills.

[Death2u 4]

seriously? You must be a carebear pve type.

Wanting to ban people for killing lol, never heard such bs in all my life.

[choam 10]

Don't understand why servers should ban ppl just for killing others, I understand that can be frustrating but there's a lot of tips to avoid being murdered explained in the forums. Just be carefull and avoid Cherno and Elektro.

PvP makes this mod AWESOME, and I'm not a bandit, with 6 characters, just killed 3 guys, and that was vengeance (they killed a friend), but the level of paranoia when moving to a town, looking for food or whatever, that stepping noise in the deep of the forest, the feeling of being observed... it's just EPIC!

Just think about it, what's the point wihout Pks? Dominate everything? Get the best weapons with your friends? And then? Go hunting with your SAW or silenced M4 a poor cow?

[oktyabr 53]

In former communist Chernarus the poor cow hunts YOU!

[Pallidum 33]

I'm a veteran EVE Online player. I fly a titan in EVE Online (RL value, equivalent to about $2-3000), a ship that can die in seconds if I'm not careful. And once it dies, it's gone.

I love the PVP in DayZ. Just like EVE Online, it's a game where PVP has consequences. These consequences add another layer to the game. Without PVP, the game would be predictable and easy - See lots of zombies, draw aggro, run indoors, pop them one by one as they get inside. With PVP, the game becomes absolutely terrifying at times.

Even so, this game is very forgiving. I died the other day. Lost my M4A3 CCO with 12 STANAG mags, full kit with everything except NVGs and GPS. It sucked, especially as I died to a glitch. About half an hour later, I had an AK with map, compass, matches and a hunting knife.

It's very easy to recover from a death once you know what you're doing. Yet even so, the fact that you DO lose stuff on dying means that PVP is unpredictable and exciting.

[Thesreyn 18]

Pffft. Titans used to be cool, they're so easy to get now. Plus I think they're still considering changes to supercaps to stop the "person with the most supercaps wins" scenario.

INTERCEPTORS AND RECON FOR LIFE!

Anyway, you're right. DayZ is much more forgiving than people make it out to be. You died, so what, it was a tiny bit of gear. Took you a couple of hours, tops, maybe a few days if you had a string of bad luck or really awesome gear. Go get it all again, because death really doesn't mean anything.

Death will start meaning something when persistence is truly implemented and groups start fixing up their own little slices of Chernarus. Then, death means your camp is less well defended, and if you've been killed by players raiding your camp, well... Death means something then. Though you can still rebuild relatively easily.

That's what I look forward to. I want to POS up a castle :P

[Jeff (DayZ) 1]

Rifters all day err day

[Pallidum 33]

Nice castle. We'll take it. ;)

[swayzesghost 14]

Anyway' date=' you're right. DayZ is much more forgiving than people make it out to be. You died, so what, it was a tiny bit of gear. Took you a couple of hours, tops, maybe a few days if you had a string of bad luck or really awesome gear. Go get it all again, because death really doesn't mean anything.

[/quote']

Well, you're also missing the point that maybe the person was doing something fun, gets killed, and then isn't having fun anymore. It's not just about the gear.

[rocket 16567]

This will become much more of an issue with skill/talent tree's. It needs careful consideration and implementation at each step to get the balance right and meet the intentions.

[oilman 72]

Skill trees?

What the balls, does that mean we'll have persistent characters over deaths? I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[rocket 16567]

Skill trees?

What the balls' date=' does that mean we'll have persistent characters over deaths? I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[/quote']

No persistent characters. But the longer your character is alive, the better he will get at doing things. But that is going to result in some severe tantrums when they get shot by that noob with a makarov coming out of the hospital in Cherno cause he thought you were a zombie... NO amount of Hello Kitty backpacks and My Little Pony skins will make up for that.

[LondonHyena 7]

NO amount of Hello Kitty backpacks and My Little Pony skins will make up for that.

Oh I don't know, Hello Kitty is pretty lush :heart:

[oilman 72]

No persistent characters. But the longer your character is alive' date=' the better he will get at doing things. But that is going to result in some severe tantrums when they get shot by that noob with a makarov coming out of the hospital in Cherno cause he thought you were a zombie... NO amount of Hello Kitty backpacks and My Little Pony skins will make up for that. [/quote']

Haha, in that case, I LOVE the idea. It really makes you invested into your character.

The only issue I see is certain players getting incredibly good at everything, which would be awkward for newer players. I think things like damage dealt by weapons, and HP should be fixed for all players. There are plenty of other variables to mess with: Sound made, loot found, hunger / thirst, hunting animals, knock-out time, etc.

Obviously, like any feature, it will be balanced in time. And you've probably thought this through a hell of a lot more than I have, anyway.

[rocket 16567]

It is going to be even harder to balance that, that coming up with something like humanity. But I think the idea will be to tie it in with the concept of groups, lone wolfs, etc...

Having it so that people can develop and specialize a character to become an engineer, weapons tech, doctor, something like that - might encourage people to group together and the benefit of an individuals skill becomes important beyond just the loot they carry.

All this humanity BS and whatnot, it's not really working. The only way to solve this, as people have said time and again here, is to provide a bit more authenticity around the experience in terms of individual contribution to a group. Having that guy with medical experience in your group is going to be worth keeping him around, even though you have to split the loot.

This kind of positive benefit still provides for the lone wolf experience, and lets the crazies still going around and slaughter everything that moves.

The question is the balance, getting that right so that people who loose their characters don't commit suicide in real life. Or like, come to my apartment and shit on my doorstep or something. But it needs to be done in such a way that you don't become specialized in everything nor do you even NEED to become specialized in everything. I had a rudimentary system in place prior to alpha but I took it out pending development of some UI.

[oilman 72]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, while it's good to have plenty of opinions, you can expect twenty tonnes of butthurt testing a feature in an open alpha :p

---

The other issue is somehow encouraging people to choose less-than-desirable traits for the sake of the group. Because 95% of players are playing by themselves, it is highly unlikely they will ever choose to be the 'group medic', unless it has definite bonuses to themselves.

I believe the best way to balance this is to make sure every bonus has an equal selfish bonus and selfless bonus.

From a gameplay perspective, this passively encourages teamwork: The player will see he has a friendly bonus and will often be compelled to use it. (I tested this with a few projects I've been involved with. It's surprising to see how often someone will do something purely because 'My class can do it, and noone else can!') It's important that the 'nudge' to groups is passive: You want to be subtle, not have a metaphorical big glowing sign saying "GET IN GROUPS!"

As a purely on-the-spot example:

(As an example of seperate Selfish / Selfless abilities):

Medic:

- 2 x Speed Bandaging Self (Selfish)

- Half as long knockdown time (Selfish)

- 2 x Speed Bandaging Others (Selfless)

- Extra blood given to others on transfusions (Selfless)

(As an example of combined Selfish / Selfless abilities):

Engineer:

- May repair certain vehicles (everything but the chopper) with just a toolkit

If this makes sense.

[rocket 16567]

...this passively encourages teamwork...

If this makes sense.

Absolutely. I completely agree. And this is where studios, imho, keep getting it wrong. The gamer market has matured, but the product hasn't - so they keep manufacturing the experience.

Developing passive effect is hard because balancing is a real bitch and there is a huge risk you're either going to blow your budget or your customers are going to send you emails that make you wanna reply U MAD, BRO.

Whatever the system, I think the golden rule is that it should support the way you want to play with your character, not make any kind of judgement or anything, and not force you to play a particular way because of a shitty or dumbfuck mechanic (like a broken bandit transformation that spawns you in the fucking sea and wipes your gear, for example).

Well thats the goal, anyway. But yeah what you said makes alot of sense, I think.

[oilman 72]

You're right on the trend of video game developers. The overall movement has been from mechanics that subtly nudge the player to make decisions or pathways, into huge pushes, while the devteam says, 'You're doing this now, bitch.'

The prime example of this is Hitman. You can actually see the game transform from the former into the latter over the series, until we're left with the latest installment: One with quicktime events, corridor shooting, and literal marking of the pathway of NPC's.

One aspect you will eventually have to consider when you go 'big' so to speak is that of accessibility, which is a damn shame in my view, but a necessary part of development. For example, while I'm sure 90% of people playing this alpha are quite content to find out by themselves by experimentation how to construct fences, how to fix rotor parts, etc., the average gamer is not. (I don't think the average gamer EVER was, either.)

The key here, again, is subtlety. While there does need to be a nudge in the right direction for sure, there should never be instructions appearing on the screen.

Anyway, I'm just procrastinating because I'm sick of the STALKER SDK and shitty Ukrainian coding. I'll end my rant. :D

[Knollte 13]

Coming from eve online aswell i think character specialization will

mostly benifit clan players and players who know each other from outside the game.

I believe random groups ,who met in game ,would not benifit from this system

because they would be dominated by organized teamplayers in teamspeak

just like in eve online.

And i for one like the atmosphere of meeting some stranger ingame and cooperate.

But solo players will have an even harder time against clans and grouping up with randoms without bandit skins will be even more suicidal than now.

I fear this system might turn of random players and make this mod a clan only game.

edit:I liked the idea where a character is spawned with a certain specialization randomly that was in one of the suggestion threads would also be more authentic than becoming a doctor in the 12 houres you might play.

that said awesome you have job with the mod rocket.