RE: Private Hives and 'The Rules' - (Update from Rocket inside)

[liass44 (DayZ) 1]

Private hive = kill the admin = admin gets mad = admin bans you = nothing to do about it

not to mention this is ALPHA he opened for us to TEST his mod and his hive, i think it would be fine once he has fully developed the game. he did not open alpha for you to private test your own shit he wants results !

[Delta Smoke 01 765]

There have been hackers on every singler private hive iv ever been on. FACT. Iv seen ppl dropping ammo crates and spawning anything you want in them. Iv seen tanks, attack heli's and jets. Worst of all the location hack. That gives away every single player and vehicles position on the map. Iv never encountered a hacker on official servers. Soooo yea, i use private hives to hone my combat skills. That is all

[Harlok 1]

For thoes busy claiming private hives are killing DayZ heres something to think about. I finaly got 4 of my friends to get Arma and Dayz, sofar 3 have quit. It wasn't that it was too hard, 2 just quit because they spent hours just trying to get into a server and few times they did they tended to get DCed soon after. The other got tired of yelling friendly and just getting shot by guys who totaly outclassed him. To make my story short the only one who has stayed has been playing on a private hive having the time of his life. So realy whats more important? A little missing out of the hive stress test or keeping a player base to actually buy the product and fund it further?

[Nalestom 116]

Private hive = kill the admin = admin gets mad = admin bans you = nothing to do about it

not to mention this is ALPHA he opened for us to TEST his mod and his hive, i think it would be fine once he has fully developed the game. he did not open alpha for you to private test your own shit he wants results !

Actually, the majority of the private hive owners don't even play on their own server. They're usually too busy actually running their own server to so much as fight in Elektro.

If you're a good, competent server owner, then you know that at times, running a server is practically a full-time job.

Until Rocket publicly announces that he dislikes private hives because he wants his hive to be tested, I will continue to play on private hive servers. They're simply better, in every sense of the word.

[sambody 44]

There have been hackers on every singler private hive iv ever been on. FACT. Iv seen ppl dropping ammo crates and spawning anything you want in them. Iv seen tanks, attack heli's and jets. Worst of all the location hack. That gives away every single player and vehicles position on the map. Iv never encountered a hacker on official servers. Soooo yea, i use private hives to hone my combat skills. That is all

The amount of hackers is same in every server, was it alt hive or not.

Private hive = kill the admin = admin gets mad = admin bans you = nothing to do about it

not to mention this is ALPHA he opened for us to TEST his mod and his hive, i think it would be fine once he has fully developed the game. he did not open alpha for you to private test your own shit he wants results !

There is over 700 servers and only some of them are alt hive servers, do you really think that these few servers have bigger than 2% effect on the results? Also most of the people play in the official hive too so it does not effect on the results of rocket's testing at all.

This crying about alt hives destroying the mod is useless bullshit. There is real things that are destroying the mod, but it is not alt hive servers.

Edited July 29, 2012 by sambody

[Nalestom 116]

There have been hackers on every singler private hive iv ever been on. FACT. Iv seen ppl dropping ammo crates and spawning anything you want in them. Iv seen tanks, attack heli's and jets. Worst of all the location hack. That gives away every single player and vehicles position on the map. Iv never encountered a hacker on official servers. Soooo yea, i use private hives to hone my combat skills. That is all

The private server I frequent the most has an anti-cheat that compliments the security offered by BattleEye. This anti-cheat is a script written by the owner himself, and so far, the only encounter with hackers we've had is when BattleEye glitched. Our solution to combat the hackers was simply to put a password on the server and display the password in the description of the server. Not all private hive servers are illegitimate.

And don't even begin to talk about "not encountering hackers on official servers." Hackers currently have official servers practically in their back pocket.

[Swineflew 480]

Sadly, it's impossible to do on the public hive without a high risk of death and destruction.

Let's say our current group of 10+ decided to set up a trading post on a public hive server. For one, we don't have any resources whatsoever to set up a trading post, but I'll play your game and say that we've gathered them. After we set up the trading post, we would be forced to advertise it. If we advertised it on the official forums, a group of bandits would read it and would server-hop past our defenses, then proceed to kill us all. All in the name of 10 additional kills.

If we chose not to advertise it, we'd end up with no business whatsoever unless we placed it in a major city. If we placed it in a major city, we'd only run into the same problem: bandits abusing the system to kill us all.

In its current state, the mod and its players simply are not friendly to any attempts of peaceful gathering on the public hive. If we tried to bring our game-changing ways to the public hive, we'd end up dying to the point of us losing motivation - which changed absolutely nothing in the game.

So instead of even trying you would just quit before you even started?

I admit that current game abuse, server hopping hacking etc would make that insanely hard, but when better countermeasures are put in place I would hate to see things like this not even attempted.

I'd propose setting up makeshift outposts. 2 people come to you via forums or steam message or whatever, they want you to mediate a trade.

You'd pick a server and setup a post somewhere and they'd come to your camp and trade.

Of course this sets up for ambushes, but you securing the area first should give you an advantage.

I'm getting off topic though.

I guess what it boils down to is me supporting the game by playing it 100% how it's intended. I don't want to promote circumventing the system as its currently setup.

But of course rocket is capable of error and being wrong, so I guess he could have set this system up by mistake even though he's posted a few times it's not up for discussion and is set in stone that he wants a centralized hive.

I guess it could have been a typo.

[`Orum 17]

Wow, private hives have less hackers? Sign me up. Honestly, the things I actually fear in this game (from most to least):

1: Hackers

2: Malicious admins (banning on any death)

3 through 9000: Various glitches

9001: Zombies

9002: Running out of food/water

9003: Legitimate player killing

Edited July 29, 2012 by `Orum

[Lin (DayZ) 22]

Even if the server is not on the Public hive. you still have players, playing the game. They can still find bugs and report them, they can still make suggestions and post it.

Heck even the dramatics of a private server is useful information!

So yes, you lose out of a stress test (but they ushaly comes in late beta, the real stress tests) but you gain information from the players playing the game.

How is this a bad thing?

[SilenceSoLoud 34]

id say there would be more benefit to the game being played in all legit manners for a thorough outlook on the game as a whole, in all situations; than sticking only to one set of rules and regs. And i mean, if you want bugs found and people playing and word getting spread, and there are a subset of people who only want private server play, then you make sure that the option is there for those folks for extended exposure.

Consider a couple of things:

1- Non persistent, non central server based gaming has been around forever. Games from all genres have built many thriving communities composed of free standing, independent database servers.

2- As has been said, stress testing is actually one of the last things done in LATE BETA, not early beta, or even Alpha.

I like Rocket and the way he handles the community and his development, but you seem a tad infatuated Swine.

[Swineflew 480]

I'm infatuated with the game. Not rocket, however I like the way he is approaching development.

Stress testing was just my example, I don't work at a game studio or anything like that so I don't know what reasons he would have for not wanting private servers attached to a private hive. However he dislikes them and I support his decision. He's never given me a reason to believe he's ever put his personal best interest ahead of the mod.

Honestly if he came in this thread and said "private servers and hives are awesome" I'd make a character on one to check it out, but I don't know that to be true.

I don't believe in a "victimless crime" scenario.

Edit: can they get data from servers unattached to the public hive? I'm not going to pretend like I know how it works.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Swineflew

[Lin (DayZ) 22]

I'm infatuated with the game. Not rocket, however I like the way he is approaching development.

Stress testing was just my example, I don't work at a game studio or anything like that so I don't know what reasons he would have for not wanting private servers attached to a private hive. However he dislikes them and I support his decision. He's never given me a reason to believe he's ever put his personal best interest ahead of the mod.

Honestly if he came in this thread and said "private servers and hives are awesome" I'd make a character on one to check it out, but I don't know that to be true.

I don't believe in a "victimless crime" scenario.

Edit: can they get data from servers unattached to the public hive? I'm not going to pretend like I know how it works.

A private hive has it's own data base and is not connected to the hive in any ways. Does not leach or anything of the sorts.

And yes, someone who hosts a private hive, can have multiple servers running off that hive.

[Swineflew 480]

A private hive has it's own data base and is not connected to the hive in any ways. Does not leach or anything of the sorts.

And yes, someone who hosts a private hive, can have multiple servers running off that hive.

Ok I was curious what you meant by gaining player data under other circumstances in your earlier post?

[Lin (DayZ) 22]

Ok I was curious what you meant by gaining player data under other circumstances in your earlier post?

They gain data by player feed back. Private hive or the main hive. Players can still give valuable feed back to dev's.

[sambody 44]

Just started thinking.

The people who are using private hives could test some of their own things in the servers, like how the people are reacting to some certain settings and perhaps mods.

After that they could show some data how the people have been reacting to it and it would safe time and testing from rocket and the other developers, don't you think?

[orb917@hotmail.com 117]

my take on all this, yes hackers suck and perhaps private hive servers might make things better for some people. but right now, we're testing this, trying to help rocket gather data, if you're playing somewhere he can't gather data, then you're hindering the project. sure, you can make all these anecdotal evidence arguments, but unless you present actual valid data sets it's all ultimately meaningless. i'd also say that since rocket has devoted a whole bunch of time, effort, and money to keep this project afloat, and i haven't paid a single dime for dayz, i should at the very least respect his wishes regarding the project to pay him back.

here's what he's said on this issue in the past:

"No, private servers aren't allowed...So ask yourself, do you think you are really helping the project? Branching it right now? Is that what this needs? Why did you even do it? To make things better for a few people? This is a techdemo/proof of concept to, oh I don't know, do something really really special."

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/9875-kronzkys-sp-hack-removed-his-words/page__st__40#entry102912

[Nalestom 116]

Just started thinking.

The people who are using private hives could test some of their own things in the servers, like how the people are reacting to some certain settings and perhaps mods.

After that they could show some data how the people have been reacting to it and it would safe time and testing from rocket and the other developers, don't you think?

There shouldn't be a need for server owners to report statistics to Rocket. You can tell how many people enjoy certain server configurations simply by looking at how many people are playing servers of that ruleset.

[orb917@hotmail.com 117]

There shouldn't be a need for server owners to report statistics to Rocket. You can tell how many people enjoy certain server configurations simply by looking at how many people are playing servers of that ruleset.

and how are they supposed to monitor this? identify all private hive servers, continually hit refresh and then write down numbers? should they take time out of improving the game to write some code to compile population data for these servers? what about other valuable statistical information like number of players dead to zombies? killed by other players? any sort of information they can gain about hackers? disconnects in combat? etc etc etc.

[Nalestom 116]

and how are they supposed to monitor this? identify all private hive servers, continually hit refresh and then write down numbers? should they take time out of improving the game to write some code to compile population data for these servers? what about other valuable statistical information like number of players dead to zombies? killed by other players? any sort of information they can gain about hackers? disconnects in combat? etc etc etc.

All I'm saying is that I think it would be bad form on Rocket's part to force all players to use his hive when his hive is, at times, flawed.

When the hive performs well and the public servers are safe from hackers and ghosters, I would have absolutely no problem with switching to the public hive (provided that Rocket also implements updates that would help build a communal feel among servers, which he's already announced that he would do.)

[orb917@hotmail.com 117]

All I'm saying is that I think it would be bad form on Rocket's part to force all players to use his hive when his hive is, at times, flawed.

When the hive performs well and the public servers are safe from hackers and ghosters, I would have absolutely no problem with switching to the public hive (provided that Rocket also implements updates that would help build a communal feel among servers, which he's already announced that he would do.)

i understand what you're saying, and know that it's frustrating to have to put up with the flaws in the current build, but now's the time to expose the hive's weaknesses and help it improve through use, not for hiding out in private servers. right now we need to help them collect data on hackers and flaws so that when it's stand alone it'll be solid and locked down. hiding out in private servers may give you personally a seemingly better experience, but it gives nothing back to the developers who have invested a great deal of their personal time and resources to the mod that you're enjoying. and as far as i've seen they've only asked that we help them test, and in my opinion, that's not too much to ask considering how much enjoyment i've gotten out of the mod, warts and all.

[WhiteTigerShiro 25]

And, as we've all seen, sometimes Rocket's hive is a laggy sonofabitch that is unbearable to play on.

And I know that the mod is in alpha, and we should expect latency and performance issues. But at the end of the day, I want to play DayZ, and I can't play DayZ if it takes me a solid 20 seconds to see gear that I'm looting actually enter my inventory.

If you can't handle the idea of the game being buggy/laggy because of its alpha status, then wait until final release. Private hives counter-act the biggest part of why he went live with the alpha in the first place.

Private hives perform better most of the time and build a sense of community among a group of players. The public hive simply doesn't do that - you have to go out of your way (or get extremely lucky while looting and stumble upon a friendly survivor) to find a group of people to play with. In a private hive, groups of people come together naturally to fight a common enemy.

Just because you're too lazy/can't be bothered to use the forums to meet-up with people to play the game with isn't a fault of Rocket's hive.

[gator (DayZ) 22]

In all honesty, I don't see how or why Rocket would want to stop them. It doesn't hurt any body, and the loot is non-transferable. Though he did pitch a hissy fit about the single player mod, so it wouldn't surprise me if they figured out some dumb-ass way to combat non-hive servers.

Cause he / they smell money even though they have nothing resembling what would be an acceptable stand alone "game?"

When developers get a large following they tend to have their view of reality distorted.

[kryptik 9]

All I would like to say is that this is an exceptionally feeble-minded argument. There are many games that have different servers for different styles of playing, so why must we play Dayz as Rocket intended if it in no way affects the game and experience that he was looking to create. The variance of different servers is what will lead to different styles of playing the game, and maybe different 'modes' which you would otherwise not play due to losing progress.

There is also ALWAYS the option to just ignore it and pretend it's not there, as our as a nation are so comfortable doing (u.s).

I would like to add that this is mostly speculation and is only providing arguments for why hive and non hive are both essential to the progression of Dayz LONGTERM (and mostly for the possibilities of player created game modes or maps or whatever it is that they would like to create).

[Nalestom 116]

i understand what you're saying, and know that it's frustrating to have to put up with the flaws in the current build, but now's the time to expose the hive's weaknesses and help it improve through use, not for hiding out in private servers. right now we need to help them collect data on hackers and flaws so that when it's stand alone it'll be solid and locked down. hiding out in private servers may give you personally a seemingly better experience, but it gives nothing back to the developers who have invested a great deal of their personal time and resources to the mod that you're enjoying. and as far as i've seen they've only asked that we help them test, and in my opinion, that's not too much to ask considering how much enjoyment i've gotten out of the mod, warts and all.

The most difficult part of bug-fixing isn't diagnosing what's causing the bug; the most difficult part is combing through hundreds upon hundreds of lines of code to find the one misplaced parenthesis that is screwing everything up. My participation in the main hive servers would do nothing but add a single additional player for hackers to toy with. Also, my participation in the main hive servers does not help Rocket catch hackers at all, nor does my lack of participation hinder it. There is no logical basis behind that argument.

If you can't handle the idea of the game being buggy/laggy because of its alpha status, then wait until final release. Private hives counter-act the biggest part of why he went live with the alpha in the first place.

Just because you're too lazy/can't be bothered to use the forums to meet-up with people to play the game with isn't a fault of Rocket's hive.

I am completely okay with the idea of the game being buggy, laggy, glitchy, and downright frustrating to get working at times. I understand that the mod is not yet a polished presentation, and I understand that the mod was not prepared for the huge boom of popularity that was thrown at it (a boom in popularity that you and I are both contributing to, I might add!) However, if there is an alternate route that saves me from the frustration of dealing with a mod that is filled with hackers and players who shamelessly exploit in order to get the jump on you in firefights, I am most definitely going to take that route - not in an act of selfishness, but simply because I wish to experience a style of gameplay that is completely unhindered by lag and exploiters. And boy, is that style of gameplay amazing.

You also assume that I'm a lone wolf. Trust me, I'm not. I have a number of close friends I can trust to play with, and the vast majority of them play on the same non-hive server that I do.

Everybody is also assuming that I play exclusively on non-hive servers. I play on both hive and non-hive, and I play both quite regularly. However, I much prefer playing on the non-hive server because I simply don't have to fight latency and exploits when I play there. I have fun either way, but I have considerably more fun when I don't have to deal with the issues.

In the end, we're all playing, enjoying, and bug-testing the same mod. It's just that I prefer to be connected to a different database.

[j_riddell@live.com 32]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

That quote doesn't mean what you think it means.