On risk-reward, difficulty, and death

[Publik 404]

As it stands the mod allows for players to take a run & gun gameplay style with little risk. Engagements with other player have 5 possible main outcomes:

A runs into B, outcomes in the perspective of A

1. A kills B, gets B's gear at risk of dying in the fight

1a. Zombies are alerted to A, risks dying to zombies

2. B kills A, A loses his gear and respawns with little penalty

3. A disconnects to no loss of gear or life, runs to another server

4. A and B kill each other

5. A runs away

I think we can all agree that these 5 (6) cases cover almost all player engagements with the exception of group engagements (which can be broken down into many of these results).

In addition, player-zombie interactions have a similar set of outcomes:

A calls the horde

1. A gets killed by the horde

2. A runs away from the horde/loses aggro.

3. A kills the horde

4. A disconnects and runs to another server

Question: What is the current penalty for dying?

Answer: Loss of items, utilities, pack. Respawn is almost immediate and all items can be recovered through either hitting known loot locations or returning to your death point. Respawns are along the southern beach.

Question: Currently, how harsh is player death?

Answer: Trivial. The largest problem with dying is the loss of utility items (map, GPS, matches, etc).

Question: What makes dying trivial?

Answer: Players can quickly regain lost items. Abundance of higher-grade weapons (AKM), server-hopping exploitation. Players can spawn, suicide, and respawn to gain advantageous spawn points, such as spawns near the Balota airfield.

Question: How harsh should player death be?

Answer: Extremely harsh. Players should have a vested interest in keeping themselves alive. Dying should be an extremely bad thing.

Question: Publik, how do you propose Rocket fix the harshness of death?

Answer: Two things.

1. Respawn with a Makarov, 1 (one) magazine for it, 1 (one) empty water bottle, and 1 (one) can of beans. The result of this change would be that respawning is hard. You would not be able to be self-sufficient on respawn, and would probably not be able to kill other players. First player spawn can be more lenient for brand new players.

2. When you die, be it from zombies, players, or respawning, you are restricted from immediately respawning for 30 minutes - 1 hour. If you die, you die. You're locked out of the servers (maybe put in a wait-room? Never ending elevator ride?). You won't be able to just run back to where you died and pick your stuff back up.

Question: Pubs, man, how the hell does this help with running and gunning?

Answer: Because playing in a run & gun style means you run the risk of death. As it stands, death doesn't suck enough. If death really sucked, players would be FAR more likely to avoid dangerous conflict. Playing as Rambo or CoD kid would still be doable, but could also turn around and bite you in the ass.

Right now there is no real risk to attacking someone else. If you get killed, whatever. Respawn and repeat. If respawning took an hour and you started with next to nothing, you'd probably think twice before shooting that guy in the field.

True story: Got attacked by 3 guys in a field. I killed two of them before bleeding out. 3 on 1, and there was real risk to both sides. The only problem with that encounter was that there was no penalty for death. If those two that I killed had to risk waiting an hour versus the reward of my AKM and nice pack, would they have taken the shots or been more careful? Would they have thought twice before shooting my legs out?

Question: Alright, I get what you're saying. Make death really bad. But what about those guys that just disconnect and run away?

Answer: Disconnecting from a fight is a real problem. I think everyone can agree to that. It's cowardly and it breaks immersion. If you disconnect, the mod should check to see if you've recently taken damage and what things are aggro'd to you.

If you've taken damage and disconnect, the game assumes that you're running away. During your escape, the game assumes that some items have fallen out or gotten lost. When you sign back in after disconnecting from a fight, you lose some of your items. Depending on the severity of the damage or the number of zombies aggro'd to you, you may lose your pack or weapons.

Question: Ok, so if you die, you've gotta wait, respawning sucks, and if you disconnect and run away, you can lose your gear. What effect would this have to risk-reward?

Answer: Attacking other players poses a real risk. You run the risk of dying and being locked out from an hour, at the reward of getting someone's stuff. If you run away, you run the risk of losing your gear. It becomes more beneficial for players to work together with strangers. It weeds out the bastards that just want to shoot everything, and it weeds out the idiot survivors that shoot everything anyways.

Question: I'm a bandito. I don't like this! I wanna be able to kill everyone!

Answer: Killing someone for teh lulz is still possible, and even worse to your victim. Banditos should agree with me.

Question: Ok, so everything is really risky. Can I still just go to Balota and get my gear back?

Answer: No. The gear should be spread around. Player's shouldn't be able to just run along a predefined route through some hunting stands and airfields and get their stuff back. I'm pretty sure this is planned anyways, so whatever.

I'd suggest ammo be more common, but weapons themselves be rare. For example, it is easy to find an AKM and AKM ammo. It should be harder to find an AKM, and more easy to find the ammo in military areas. In such a way, I can stockpile STANAG mags or AK rounds, but I may never run into a M16 or an AK.

TLDR

Make death suck ass. Make respawning hard as hell. Make running away risky. Make weapons rare, and ammo common. Weed out the Rambos and the CoD kiddies.

[Pat_the_Bunny 4]

I think reducing the amount of gear you respawn with would increase the amount of PvP along the coast. I don't go out of my way to kill others, but if I only had one mag to start with I don't have anything to lose at that point and would shoot the first person I came across just for the ammo and beans. As it is I now any player can head straight inland and not have to worry about a whole lot, which makes it a little more friendly. I could be wrong though.

The thirty minute wait on respawning is something I've seen suggested before, and I can't for the life of me understand why. I seriously doubt something like this would ever happen because too many people would fall away from the game. I get that people want more penalties for death, but in the end this is just a game, and such harsh punishments are bad for business.

[Suicide Mouse 50]

Don't assume all players are cautious to lose their stuff, even if it becomes harder to re-acquire them. Some just play to be annoying to others. They'll just run and gun and probably kill the other person. If they do die, they won't care at all and will just repeat it, making the penalty only negative to the serious player.

[Publik 404]

... but in the end this is just a game...

I was under the impression that it was an anti-game and as such meant to be hard.

Don't assume all players are cautious to lose their stuff' date=' even if it becomes harder to re-acquire them. Some just play to be annoying to others. They'll just run and gun and probably kill the other person. If they do die, they won't care at all and will just repeat it, making the penalty only negative to the serious player.

[/quote']

I can't see anyone playing just to be a dick if it takes them so much time to gear up to the point of being a threat with the risk of having to wait an hour between spawns. If I was playing full bandito, I doubt I'd stick around long under those conditions.

Also, with such reduced starting items, there would be no reason to PK on the beach. Kill a guy or risk dying for a mak mag and a can of beans? Risk far greater than the possible reward.

[Augusto (DayZ) 3]

+1 me likes

[clever 12]

I'm all for reducing the gear you spawn with, but 30 minutes is frankly too long. Sure, I'd personally love the long respawn times like that, but a good majority of people want to be able to play DayZ in a continuous playthrough, not die, wait 30 minutes, then respawn again.

Again, I'm all for making this game tougher, but respawn times aren't going to make people want to start shooting people. It'll just encourage people to start shooting first when not in danger, just in the slim chance that person would of shot them.

[Publik 404]

It'll just encourage people to start shooting first when not in danger' date=' just in the slim chance that person would of shot them.

[/quote']

I partially agree, but it already happens like this. My story of the 3 guys that shot my legs out is surprisingly relevant. They fired first, and outnumbered me 3:1. I still managed to kill 2 of them before dying. There is some risk in attack another player, this makes the risk all the higher. You have no idea if they have backup or are a better shot than you. Once people figure out that a firefight is dangerous and has serious consequences, they'll think twice.

[Pat_the_Bunny 4]

... but in the end this is just a game...

I was under the impression that it was an anti-game and as such meant to be hard.

Ummm...what?

What the hell is an anti-game? Something you do to avoid amusement? Sounds like a trip to the DMV.

Seriously though, I don't understand what you're getting at.

[Hesson 1]

I believe the "anti-game" is something that instead of entertaining someone with simple repetitive tasks that have a way to complete, just griefs you so hard that you are driven to succeed in it just so you can say fuck you I win.

Like Dark Souls on pcp

[TheBowski 2]

I very much agree with the OP. Trying to kill someone on the coast would become very stupid indeed. Even if you killed them without having them return fire, you're still down half a mag and have probably aggroed zombies. The respawn timer is crucial to this, though. Without it, you are more likely to kill the first person you see because the possible reward is greater than the risk. Dying, especially with so little gear, would have no effect on the PKer. The "artificial" restriction of restarting plays a big role in all of this. It makes your life valuable at the very beginning before you have gear. After you've played for a little while, you have other reasons to live.

I'm all for this, this is the best suggested solution to these problems yet. I think that the server hopping/disconnection prevention system could use a little work, though. I think that to properly disconnect, the player should have to select the option from the menu. Selecting the option would display a message saying if you were in a legal disconnect zone. To legally disconnect, the player would have to be a certain distance from any building. If the player is in a legal disconnect area, a countdown would be triggered that would be canceled if the player moved. If the player disconnected through traditional means and did not use the disconnect system, they would lose items from their pack in the way you described. This would prevent or reduce server hopping and fight disconnecting. Any item from their inventory or backpack could be lost, including their main weapon, sidearm, map, or compass.

[TeaLeaf 5]

I agree with all your points but not your solutions. Most of the abusive farming is being worked on, once those issues are resolved I don't think giving new players even more reason to kamikaze attack each other is a good idea.

[Publik 404]

I believe the "anti-game" is something that instead of entertaining someone with simple repetitive tasks that have a way to complete' date=' just griefs you so hard that you are driven to succeed in it just so you can say fuck you I win.

Like Dark Souls on pcp

[/quote']

Pretty much this. Games are fair and you go to them to have fun. Anti-games are not easy, they're not 'fun'. They suck and they kick your ass. We don't have those. All the games industry has is pansy catered crap, and I'm tired of it. I see DayZ not as a game, but as an experience. My character isn't a character, it's me.

If DayZ was supposed to be 'fun', it would be L4D. I want more than that.

I think that the server hopping/disconnection prevention system could use a little work' date=' though.[/quote']

Let's see, I was writing the last bit on the way out of class :S The idea I had, or more the question I asked myself, was what happens to your character when you disconnect? If you're being chased by 20 zombies and you disconnect, what should the mod assume happens to you? I figured it would assume that you fled from the zombies. In punishment for bitching out, the mod would assume that a few zombies have hit you and your pack and knocked things out. Depending on how many zombies are on you when you DC, the number of things you might lose goes up. If I get trapped on a roof with 30 zombies below me, I wouldn't be able to just disconnect and go somewhere else. I'd have to stay and deal with it, or risk losing my gear.

With DCing from bandits, it gets a little harder. You can try and make assumptions that if a bullet has landed near you, you are being shot at, but then what if you're with buddies? You can assume that players near you are after you, but then, buddies? You would need a team system.

I was thinking that taking damage from a player would make it so disconnecting before that other player is dead or some number of minutes has passed triggers the flee/loss of items. That way, if you get hit by a bandit you have to stay and fight or risk losing all your stuff. Fleeing from people would probably be much more severe than fleeing from zombies.

This still doesn't cover switching servers when you see other people near you, but the mod could assume that you maybe just stayed and hid? It's not totally perfect with players, but it's a start.

I guess you could also tie in a system where it moves you into the woods if you sign out in an area where zombies spawn, to try and slow down spawn pile camping. However, you'd also by that time have a system that spreads the loot more so that kind of thing wouldn't really happen.

[Ballistic9 0]

30 minutes to respawn is a terrible idea. It takes plenty of time to find a server with space and actually get into the game already without it being made an actual "feature".

Not everyone has enormous amounts of time to play a game, for most people waiting 30 minutes to just respawn after someone sniped you from out of no where would simply mean they go and play something else and possible not bother returning for the "wait-a-thon" that this 30 minutes feature would make the game.

[Pat_the_Bunny 4]

I believe the "anti-game" is something that instead of entertaining someone with simple repetitive tasks that have a way to complete' date=' just griefs you so hard that you are driven to succeed in it just so you can say fuck you I win.

Like Dark Souls on pcp

[/quote']

So....what if I enjoy playing? Then it's not an anti-game, is it? And I'm sure I'm not alone, in fact I'm extremely confident in saying the reason most people play is because they enjoy doing so, and not because it "griefs you so hard that you are driven to succeed".

Pretty much this. Games are fair and you go to them to have fun. Anti-games are not easy' date=' they're not 'fun'. They suck and they kick your ass. We don't have those. All the games industry has is pansy catered crap, and I'm tired of it. I see DayZ not as a game, but as an experience. My character isn't a character, it's me.

If DayZ was supposed to be 'fun', it would be L4D. I want more than that.

[/quote']

If Dayz wasn't fun it wouldn't be so popular now would it?

I still fail to see where you were attempting to go with this. Bottom line: 30 minute respawns will never happen.

[Publik 404]

If Dayz wasn't fun it wouldn't be so popular now would it?

On the topic of popularity' date=' I'd say it's more a fad. The CoD kiddies hear that there's this cool zombie mod and go buy Arma2 and start in without knowing any of the controls, and they tell their friends and their friends buy it and start in without knowing any of the controls. Maybe not a fad, per-se, but the influx of people is definitely not the core audience that would actually want an anti-game. The influx of people want some watered down bullshit and QQ for moar loot and easy zombies.

Eh, the anti-game is an odd concept... It's not that it isn't fun, more so that it's a different kind of fun? Take CoD. You spawn, shoot, die, and repeat for 15 minutes then change maps and do it again. It's fun (though I can't comment on any of the recent ones, I've been clean for about a year now), but it's this mindless arcadey gamey fun. It's a game, it's not serious. The game never goes so far as to beat the player to a pulp. It never offers real decisions with serious impact.

The anti-game is a game that doesn't hold your hand. It's brutally hard and isn't meant to be gamey. Take VVVVVV. That's an anti-game. It's popular [i']because it's hard.

There's another thread going on about how DayZ now has little value for life. I'd say it never has had any value for life. Life in DayZ is cheap. If you get killed you can immediately come back. It's not hard enough. Saying that making it harder would make people more murderous is slightly true. It would, but people would quickly figure out that the guy you just killed on the beach with your one mag of makarov only had a half mag themselves and had already eaten their one can of beans. Lot of good that risk did ya, huh?

On the subject of being killed at spawn and having to wait, fine. What about for an hour you have respawn-timer-protection, where if you're killed at start you can quickly restart? Would that change your opinion?

30 minutes to respawn is a terrible idea. It takes plenty of time to find a server with space and actually get into the game already without it being made an actual "feature".

Not everyone has enormous amounts of time to play a game' date=' for most people waiting 30 minutes to just respawn after someone sniped you from out of no where would simply mean they go and play something else and possible not bother returning for the "wait-a-thon" that this 30 minutes feature would make the game.

[/quote']

I'd rather advocate hour-long respawns. I have no trouble finding a server or getting in-game. Do you only play on daytime servers? Maybe that's your problem?

No, not everyone has enormous amounts of time to play a game. However, who the hell plays DayZ for only and hour or so at a time? What can you accomplish with that? If you get killed and need to wait, GOOD. It A) forces people to take breaks when they die and B) think about how they died and think about how to not die like that again. It would give people a chance to sit down and mull over how they did. Let the experience sink in, instead of trying to get OP now now now.

[Hawk24 94]

legal disconnect zone

LMAO

So the game dictates me when I can get off the PC and do something else?

The game dictates me when I can disconnect in order to join another server where a friend has already joined?

In-combat Abort IS a problem, but you won't solve it by limiting players to "zones" where they can disconnect

I'll simply tap Alt+F4 and your zones won't stop me from doing it

The consequences of dying is loosing your gear, end of discussion

If you manage to remember the place where you died AND manage to get there before anyone else, good for you

If you manage to shoot someone point blank with that bloody Makarov, good for you, you win some gear

Adding a 1 HOUR RESPAWN TIME doesn't add ANYTHING to the game

Oh well, I wait 1 hour, then I respawn, then I shoot someone in the face with my Makarov....changed pretty much nothing

1. Respawn with a Makarov, 1 (one) magazine for it, 1 (one) empty water bottle, and 1 (one) can of beans.

You're basically forcing players to instantly venture to Elektro/Cherno then, because with that patethic amount of start supplies you won't survive for long without a proper looting run

[Publik 404]

Adding a 1 HOUR RESPAWN TIME doesn't add ANYTHING to the game

Oh well' date=' I wait 1 hour, then I respawn, then I shoot someone in the face with my Makarov....changed pretty much nothing

[/quote']

Right, except now you have to wait an hour if you die the second time. Sucks, don't it? Gonna have to play smart now, won't you? Not gonna want to do that again, will you?

1. Respawn with a Makarov' date=' 1 (one) magazine for it, 1 (one) empty water bottle, and 1 (one) can of beans.[/quote']

You're basically forcing players to instantly venture to Elektro/Cherno then, because with that patethic amount of start supplies you won't survive for long without a proper looting run

Right. My point exactly. You start off with an incredibly bad set of gear. Want better gear? Go into town. "But Pubs, there are zombies there D:". Right. It's a zombie anti-game.

Don't want to have to start with incredibly bad gear? Don't die.

[Hawk24 94]

Right, except now you have to wait an hour if you die the second time. Sucks, don't it? Gonna have to play smart now, won't you? Not gonna want to do that again, will you?

You so funny with your "gonna play smart now, won't you?"....

If you don't learn from your mistakes after being killed then you will do the same mistake again anyway

If you're unwilling to learn you will find yourself in a loop of looting and dying without ever experiencing something other than Cherno/Elektro with a bloody Winchester

Again: adding a 1 hour respawn time adds nothing to any kind of gameplay factor

All you want to achieve is to make people suffer a ridiculous amount of time for dying

Neither does it fit to a game, nor an anti-game

Even an anti-game is meant to be played, not stared at in the server screen for screwing up

I don't get how loosing a fully equipped soldier with an assault rifle and NVGs is NOT PAINFUL ENOUGH for you

Oh no, let's stack a 1 hour respawn on top of it

We already got that btw, it's called Waiting for Server Response

My point exactly. You start off with an incredibly bad set of gear

What do you call the current starter gear then? 5 Makarov mags.....WOW

Neither will you be the next pro-zombieslayer nor will you be able to take down better equipped players without outsmarting them....

You act like you are able to grab a silenced M4 with 8 STANAG mags in a matter of minutes after respawning and need to slow things down by letting players spawn with less than nothing

[Publik 404]

Don't get your panties in a twist. Let's break this down:

Right' date=' except now you have to wait an hour if you die the second time. Sucks, don't it? Gonna have to play smart now, won't you? Not gonna want to do that again, will you?[/quote']

You so funny with your "gonna play smart now, won't you?"....

If you don't learn from your mistakes after being killed then you will do the same mistake again anyway

If you're unwilling to learn you will find yourself in a loop of looting and dying without ever experiencing something other than Cherno/Elektro with a bloody Winchester

Right. I am super duper funny. You'll do the same mistake until you learn. If you're unwilling to learn then good luck to you. I fail to see the problem with this?

Again: adding a 1 hour respawn time adds nothing to any kind of gameplay factor

All you want to achieve is to make people suffer a ridiculous amount of time for dying

Neither does it fit to a game' date=' nor an anti-game

Even an anti-game is meant to be played, not stared at in the server screen for screwing up

[/quote']

Fair point. I'm not sure what would happen during that hour wait. I'd probably have a nice sit and go over what happened in my head, write what happened down on the forums under the "cool dayz stories" thread, and get something to drink/eat and go to the bathroom.

Edited in:

I don't get how loosing a fully equipped soldier with an assault rifle and NVGs is NOT PAINFUL ENOUGH for you

Oh no' date=' let's stack a 1 hour respawn on top of it

We already got that btw, it's called Waiting for Server Response

[/quote']

Cause I can run back and pick up my gear. Did it once already. Ran into a guy at NW and we killed each other. I respawned with a bandit skin and ran through the dark back to the airfield. All on my one set of starter gear.

Yes, let's stack an hour long respawn on top. I would have completely lost that gear.

Server response? I don't really get that anymore. Do you play on servers you know to work? I have 3-4 that I know respond to me and my friends and play there. The OHIO# servers are good, also FR# if I need something European. NYC# was good to me a few times, the Virginia# servers are good too.

My point exactly. You start off with an incredibly bad set of gear

What do you call the current starter gear then? 5 Makarov mags.....WOW

Neither will you be the next pro-zombieslayer nor will you be able to take down better equipped players without outsmarting them....

You act like you are able to grab a silenced M4 with 8 STANAG mags in a matter of minutes after respawning and need to slow things down by letting players spawn with less than nothing

I call the starter gear too much. I start with enough supplies to get anywhere on the map. Don't you? Pain pills, bandages, ammo, a weapon, a pack, flares, food, water. I'd rather start with nothing and really hate restarting. Then I wouldn't make dumb decisions like run around in fields alone and stuff. If I did make a dumb decision I would suffer for it by having to take a break (oh knows!)

I await your eloquent response,

Publik

[TheBowski 2]

legal disconnect zone

LMAO

So the game dictates me when I can get off the PC and do something else?

The game dictates me when I can disconnect in order to join another server where a friend has already joined?

In-combat Abort IS a problem, but you won't solve it by limiting players to "zones" where they can disconnect

I'll simply tap Alt+F4 and your zones won't stop me from doing it

The legal disconnect zone would be anywhere sufficiently far from any building. Say, 30-50m away. This leaves a massive portion of the map available for disconnecting, I am not talking about small zones. The penalty for Alt-F4ing would be the same for disconnecting through the traditional abort method: you will drop one or two items from your inventory on the ground at the position you are at when you disconnect. All this would mean is that you can't server hop or keep switching servers in elektro or cherno. Hell, if you were accidentally disconnected, you could just go back to the same server and pick the stuff you dropped back up. Of course, if you were running away from zombies or trying to get out of a firefight, this would not be a good idea. This would also give bandits hunting other players some reward when their prey DCs.

[fosty99 160]

All of this sounds excellent!

I already see myself sitting in a treeline with my camp all day, crawling around with a crossbow to get supplies.

[kurozael 22]

I agree with OP completely.

[n7snk 13]

absolutely agree with that suggestion, also zombies should be rather hard to kill

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=5848

basicly whole my thought can be summed up as:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3289&page=2

"my point is: if the enviroment is really unforgiving, zombies are extremely dangerous and can be killed only with headshot or alot of shots, if there are such things as infections after zombie bite you once or you got shot, if you can starve, freeze and so on, you would glad to see another survivor, because it will be more easy to survive.

the only reason why you will kill him is urge need in order to survive. not because you got bored.

Let's take humankind for example. We have no claws, no fangs, no fur, no great strenght, we can't see in the dark, we can't run too fast to excape some shit, we can't eat raw meat, we are very vulnerable and mother nature is quite dangerous around us, wolfes, bears any kind of shit, and still we survived as specie and become dominant.

why? because all this nightmare and our weakness forced us to group up and socialize in order to survive. we don't live one by one like other animals, because we simply would not survive like that. "

something like that

also i'd like to add: if finding weapons will be harder and it will be absolutely random there would not be weapons farming. let's say you want to raid airbase. you can find some equipment there but weapons should be rare.

[Ballistic9 0]

I'd rather advocate hour-long respawns. I have no trouble finding a server or getting in-game. Do you only play on daytime servers? Maybe that's your problem?

I play on servers that give me a low ping and usually play early evening which would be both daytime and peak time. The joining times have improved but I still think hour long respawns are a terrible idea.

No' date=' not everyone has enormous amounts of time to play a game. However, who the hell plays DayZ for [i']only and hour or so at a time? What can you accomplish with that? If you get killed and need to wait, GOOD. It A) forces people to take breaks when they die and B) think about how they died and think about how to not die like that again. It would give people a chance to sit down and mull over how they did. Let the experience sink in, instead of trying to get OP now now now.

I only play for around an hour or so at a time. If I am accomplishing anything in the minds of those who sit for several hours and play is irrelevant.

The idea of hour long respawns is a surefire way to reduce the player base. How anyone can think it is a good idea is beyond me. People don't need an hour to sit there and think about how they just got sniped or beaten to death by zombies. I doubt anyone would even spend their leisure time sitting and contemplating it, instead they'll go play something else and since they won't need to wait hours to enjoy that other game they will give it preference.

[{sas}silentkiller 2]

thirty minutes respawn is not workable, servers would empty & the MOD would die!