You, you and you. You are all part of the problem.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Ok, I'm going to say it. IT IS YOUR FAULT.

What am I reading here? I have read countless posts in a number of threads with players complaining that the arbitrarily assigned Bandit Skins are going away, and that this reduces their trust in their fellow players.

Given. That is the case. They are going away. Trust may be diminished. If that is your hangup, I am here to let you know that it is your hangup and not necessarily anyone else's.

But, here is what I have a problem with. The almost inevitable follow-up comment to, "I'm going to have trouble trusting other people..." seems to be, "SO, I'M JUST GOING TO START SHOOTING THEM IN THE FACE."

Well! Ain't that a big fucking kick in the ass? You, you and you. You're being all high and mighty, saying that because you don't know if the person you're looking at isn't going to shoot you first, that you're going to shoot them, first!

If you have posted this, or thought this, then I put it to you that YOU, YOURSELF, ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM that you are complaining about.

Things have not changed. The person holding the gun trained on you is the exact same as the person you looked at yesterday. He may shoot you, he may not. You may shoot him, you may not. Every situation you are in will give you the exact same question of "do I shoot this person or not?" The only difference is, now you do not know anything of this person's past experiences.

So, if you choose to shoot first, the blood is on you. If you're crying about this becoming a "deathmatch, that just happens to contain zombies" in one breath, and then saying, "so I'll just shoot everybody first", then you are proving your own point.

Your game will become a deathmatch. You'll be able to come onto the forums and post, "I told you so", and you will be responsible.

Congratulations.

I, for one, won't be choosing to play that way. I will choose to stand above that thinking, and work around those players who want to devolve, only to serve their own, sad little egos and to tell everybody else how 'right' they were.

I know there are other players out there who share my way of thinking, and who try and play their game to a higher level. The ArmA 2 engine, and the DayZ Alpha mod affords everyone so much more by way of gameplay, and I will not be one who chooses to marginalize it.

Take a harsh look at yourself, and your actions. We all wear the same skin, and all have to make the same tough choices. What makes you any better than him?

Govern yourself accordingly.

[Jorden 63]

You do not understand the issue at hand at all. The issue is, we knew who was going around murdering people for sport. It was functional. It kept the peace between trustworthy players and murdering scum.

Sure there was the issue with random survivors PK'ing others, but it was manageable if we knew who was doing it consistently for the wrong reasons. Now we have no idea who is going around doing this at all and it causes a huge trust issue for everyone.

[i wub pugs 16]

I've died from three bandits (but I killed one of them). How many survivors have killed me? Man I've lost count.

System was broken, it's being addressed.

I didn't come to play PMC vs KSK.

[The Killing Joke 43]

You do not understand the issue at hand at all.

I respectfully disagree' date=' but I welcome you to tell me your opinion.

The issue is, we knew who was going around murdering people for sport. It was functional. It kept the peace between trustworthy players and murdering scum.

It did not, and never has.

I wear a bandit skin in game, and do not go around murdering people for sport. Sure, there are people who do this, but the skin does in no way tell you the difference between them and me.

You can read many of my other posts, and I do agree that spawn camping is unfair, as well as disconnecting to 'save yourself', and I ask what can be done to fix it.

I also think that players who shoot others for fun, who camp a higher vantage point and who don't necessarily loot players are missing out. This one doesn't need a fix. It's not the popular way of thinking, sure. But they are playing the game within the permitted mechanics. They still have to eat, and drink, and they still need to watch out for zeds.

You say it keeps the peace? Hardly. People wearing the bandit skin haven't dwindled. They've come out in droves. Worse (for others) is that they've organized into hunting parties.

Sure there was the issue with random survivors PK'ing others' date=' but it was manageable if we knew who was doing it consistently for the wrong reasons. Now we have no idea who is going around doing this at all and it causes a huge trust issue for everyone.[/quote']

That does not mean that the arbitrary skin assignment ever fixed the problem. There are better ways.

So, I think I understand the issue just fine, thank you. In your opinion, you may disagree.

[Samsquanch (DayZ) 8]

I remember people actually trusting their fellow player during the first few weeks to a month when this mod was released. The saturation of the game has now brought all the unsavory types into the fray to "Cock of Dooty" it up.

We all just need to adapt for the time being, until Rocket gets the things he thinks will make the mod better, then he will address this shit in more detail.

[hishnik 23]

Sure there was the issue with random survivors PK'ing others' date=' but it was manageable if we knew who was doing it consistently for the wrong reasons. Now we have no idea who is going around doing this at all and it causes a huge trust issue for everyone.

[/quote']

Do tell more please. Explain to me, why am I labeled as a murderer for spawning in wildrness west of Kamenka, making my way to Cherno, and coming up on two people there, asking them 'you guys friendly' and having them open up on me. They had, one Enfield and second one had Mak, i had Winchester. I shot in self defense, killing one, lethaly wounding the second one on spot. I was down to 5k blood.

After that i was labeled as murderer.. By your logic, i would be hunted down just because i'm 'PK'er'. How is that fair.

Skins are nothing more than labeling system. If anything, with more skins you can easier explain to your buddies who it was, and have less chances of killing wrong person.

Trust, as the OP said, is your own feeling. You decide whom to trust, and not to trust. I was ready to trust the two guys i ran into, i just wanted to be cautious, and as it turned out - for good reasons. I'd rather be safe then sorry.

That being said, you dont have to shoot anyone, ever. You can go into the woods, and avoid major hubs, and just meet up with your friends. If you dont have friends to play with, die few times in process of trusting wrong people, until you find those who are friendly.

[dallas 5195]

Decision is made so we'll play it out and I defenently feel yet another thread on the subject makes a really big difference.

[sheepdawg 278]

I'm going to kill when necessary. I don't care about the same skin ordeal. I'm glad hes not coddling people.

My best advice, and the advice me and my group are following is this. Stay low, stay quiet, stay alert. It really is not that hard to tell a hostile. Yesterday i made the choice of asking first, firing later, and i learned something. If I'm going to put myself in danger, I'm going to get myself out of that danger when it arises, no matter what it takes.

Point of the mod is to survive, and my own moral compass should lead me to where i want to be.

[feriluce 2]

I've died from three bandits (but I killed one of them). How many survivors have killed me? Man I've lost count.

System was broken' date=' it's being addressed.

I didn't come to play PMC vs KSK.

[/quote']

The system definately needed some work, but it did work somewhat. I'm all in favor of a better system, but I really dont see the point of removing the partly functional system before a new and better system is in place.

[Dynamo the wonder 3]

People are getting way to strung-out over this. Do you not remember this is just a game. Damn, get some fresh air. Guess some people are just 12.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Decision is made so we'll play it out and I defenently feel yet another thread on the subject makes a really big difference.

I agree with you, we will see it play out. The only reason I placed a new thread was to call attention to the fact that a lot of players are coming out and saying, "because I can't trust what I see, I'll be sure to take the first shot."

And that limits the gameplay for themselves and others.

[osme_oxys 9]

You do not understand the issue at hand at all. The issue is' date=' we knew who was going around murdering people for sport. It was functional. It kept the peace between trustworthy players and murdering scum.

Sure there was the issue with random survivors PK'ing others, but it was manageable if we knew who was doing it consistently for the wrong reasons. Now we have no idea who is going around doing this at all and it causes a huge trust issue for everyone.

[/quote']

So anyone who isnt part of your group, is murdering scum of the earth. How many games have you played where there is only one team? Keep in mind that the other team can be the environment, other players, or NPCs. Why are people like you trying to make this a game where there is no other team? Do you complain about the zeds? The limited running speed? The risk of anything? Why do people such as yourself want a game where there isnt a risk, or other team opposing you?

Nothing is wrong with death matching, the only problem is the fools such as yourself, confuse bandits, such as myself and many others, with people who play the game for the sake of killing everyone, such as the bean hunters. Do you know how much of a huge disadvantage bandits have due to the skin? Bandits glow in the dark, and are KoS to all, including other bandits. Survivors on the other hand, dont really glow the way bandits do, arnt KoS to anyone, not even bandits. And it grows tiresome, forced to fight or run from everyone we see. So if youre going to complain, complain about survivors, not bandits, being the trouble and OP.

I dont mind the fact that in the end, survivors are OP in the end, what bothers me are the morons such as yourself that think bandits are wildly overpowered mass murderers, and want any other team gone, or nerfed so bad that they are impossible to play with. Do you support the suggestions that bandits are forced to have a massive visual bits that warn all those within 500m? Have an audible laugh as loud as an enfield? Because it sure seems it

[Rakkasan 23]

People are going to kill you. You are going to kill them. Why? Because you can't do it in real life. Though it is part of the game, and a necessary part, to maintain realism, it has not really been tweaked to have any real benefit other than, "I killed you, what you going to do about it" attitude. I myself try to be friendly, but I never turn my back to anyone. Trust no one, not even yourself, I told myself I wouldnt kill anyone who was a survivor, but I have...times were hard and I was red in food and water...and far away from nearest town...not excuseable, but I did it. You will to.

[dromagewok@hotmail.com 164]

Here, Here!

Thanks for putting my thoughts into words. I wouldn't murder anyone if I knew I wouldn't get shot on sight. If I could get treated like a human again.

[Jorden 63]

Do tell more please. Explain to me' date=' why am I labeled as a murderer for spawning in wildrness west of Kamenka, making my way to Cherno, and coming up on two people there, asking them 'you guys friendly' and having them open up on me.

[/quote']

Now this, I do agree with. The system was flawed definitely. But it helped me a great deal. Most people burned with a bandit skin usually commented so. Now this was a double edged sword in it's own way because sometimes people lied. I don't know, it worked for me much better to at least have an IDEA of who could possibly be scum.

[Disgraced 1123]

I think there should be some way to negotiate that initial contact besides global chat.

Yes, Direct Comm VOIP/VOD would be cool, but what about those that choose not to?

It's too bad that we can't lower our pistols. Lowering one's gun is kinda the universal sign for 'Not gonna shoot you (right now!).

I am not going to decry 'realism'. because we're beyond that, I think, but the suspense of initial encounters is a huge part of the game, and I agree that the bandit skins didn't really mean anything.

I'd love to be able to signal my ... INTENTION to APPEAR friendly to another person. COuld I betray them? absolutely! Do I? no.

I've grouped with a number of people, sometimes fleeting, sometimes for a couple of hours.

I've been shot by players twice. One I saw, in a bandit skin. That was in my first hour of play! The other... sniper'd on the beach at respawn a couple days after that. Shrug. Whattaya gonna do?

In any case, to me the gold standard would be having lower/raise pistol keys. If the engine flat doesn't allow it then.... ????

L

[Jorden 63]

-snip-

Another person not understanding my post.

Protip: It was about TRUST.

I have no argument with the zeds (Although the running mechanics are odd)

I have no argument with food and water system other than it shouldn't consistently drain even when logged out.

I have no argument with the choice of weapons or loot.

My ONLY argument is other players. This mod community has really been thrown through a loop. Ever since it's hit articles such as PC Gamer and Kotaku, it's attracted 12 year olds who think they need to kill on sight. You know what's fun? Grouping up with others and chatting together.

You know what isn't fun? Getting shot at on sight for no apparent reason, which has happened countless times.

[Jord68 29]

I agree completely with you Killing Joke, the skins will not make a difference too me. I have trusted and grouped up with survivors and bandits and survivors have grouped up with me even when I've had a bandit skin.

I've never judged any one on the skins they had, sure it's gotten me shot from time to time but that's all part of the fun. I don't get super attached to my gear like others seem too, it's easy to come by. I just like to see the story I make along the way and how long I live each time I respawn.

[silenced (DayZ) 5]

There are a few possibilities.

Get shot or don't get shot. If you get shot you may have died anyways, if you don't get shot you may be lucky and shoot the other OR do not do it. In the end it's all situational and WHAT kind of player you got on the opposite.

From my point of view: I shoot anyone I see, epecially since I'm not in the southern part of the map. So no 'newly introduced' players may be hit, those in the north know where they are.

It's all about: kill or get killed, your primary aim is: survive! And it's easier to survive without someone else in your back.

And don't forget: GEAR is mostly worthless, nice to have in certain situations, but even since even 'fully' geared a single bullet from a starting player with nothing else than his Makarov flying directly into your head means: good night, respawn time!

[Captain Kirk (DayZ) 0]

Rocket said its going away but only for now. I see no problem in this decision, the game being in alpha and all.

I'd say shoot the shit out of everyone just to prove that the game is turned into a deathmatch without this system if you really disagree with this change. I think people recognise a bandit because he is in a certain area rather then being in a different skin.

Though I must say the bandit system is not a bad idea at all.

[cuca 20]

im not sure what i like more dayz or the forum threads

[The Killing Joke 43]

My ONLY argument is other players. This mod community has really been thrown through a loop. Ever since it's hit articles such as PC Gamer and Kotaku' date=' it's attracted 12 year olds who think they need to kill on sight. You know what's fun? Grouping up with others and chatting together. You know what isn't fun? Getting shot at on sight for no apparent reason, which has happened countless times.[/quote']

I do not find grouping up and chatting 'fun'. It's not the way I enjoy playing. My point is that different people like to play the game differently, and you could be a bit more flexible in looking at the problem.

The question I would ask you is "why are you getting shot on sight so much?" Probably more importantly is the question you should ask yourself: "Why are you being seen by those who are shooting you?"

If your expectation is a safe game, then this will be a huge challenge. If you feel that you should be able to walk up to everybody (or the majority of people) without them thinking you to be threatening, then this may also be a challenge. Please don't take this the wrong way. I don't want to be one of 'those guys' who say, 'you're playing the wrong game'. But, do you believe your expectations (or even your hopes) of DayZ are in line with the majority of players online?

People are going to continue to lie about being friendly. People are going to continue to shoot others from afar. People are going to keep shooting others when they turn their back. They are going to continue to do this, because the game mechanics allow it.

All that being said, my ORIGINAL POINT is that those who say that trust has been reduced may be right, but by saying that they are going to combat this change by shooting everything on sight are part of the problem of why the game could devolve into deathmatch for them.

I'd say shoot the shit out of everyone just to prove that the game is turned into a deathmatch without this system if you really disagree with this change.

You continue to prove my points, day in and day out. Thank you.

[HardTarget 27]

Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance, aka P6. I probably don't fit with the majority, as I tend to stay far on the outskirts and hardly run into people, and the few times I do (sparing the NWAF), I have had sight on them far before they knew I existed. Such as by Kozlovka, I was in the woodlands, with a SVD Camo (which was lost due to the bandit to survivor swap (had to fight my way OUT of the NWAF)), and noticed a group of three on their way through. I got into a position, looked, and asked over side - "Group North of Kozlovka, Identify".

I just wanted to know who I was looking at (vet server, no name tags), and the survivor of the group (two bandits in it) immediately went prone (fat lot that did him, I was already up in a higher altitude so I could still aim down on him) and he goes "FRIENDLY!" over chat. At this point I realised he probably wasn't all that greatly used to the game as this point, as I told him "Alright, just hold fire and keep moving", as I crawled away in the woodlands. Never even went up to them, but I had the choice. I had the tactical advantages of surprise, altitude, and presight, I could have easily open fired once, killed him, and watch his buddies scramble away (most people just tend to hide and DC), but I withheld myself. I just wanted a tent, so I had been sneaking through the outer towns which had pubs/shopping centers to find one.

It is not hard to withhold your fire, it is not hard to find those who are unwilling to fire. Heck, I was traveling the powerlines above Cherno once with that same SVD Camo rifle to run into a survivor (With a revolver) as I darted back/forth and said over the Direct Com VoIP "Don't fire!" (I have bound my ingame talk key for DayZ to Direct channel ONLY, tends to work most of the time, if at times it's a bit hard to hear). He didn't fire, we walked up, chatted a bit, I asked if he needed anything, he was set, and we parted ways. I could've teamed up, heck, as I had been lone-wolfing for quite some time (and still do a lot), but I wasn't in the rush to party together. I could've been shot, or shot back. The SVD is highly accurate and puts a man down harshly, I could've not tried to initiate a conversation and just shot him before darting about like a moron.

TKJ, you hit the nail on the head. It's those who fire first, on claims that "I need to, to survive!" that make this harsh on themselves. I only do it for select areas (NWAF/Electro/Cherno), but aside that I won't shoot on sight. No matter how "right" they think they are, they're just causing it to become the exact thing they claim they hate, because they're unwilling to die. And most of the time, it's to lose what? A simple Winchester? A revolver? Alice pack? I've had a M16A2 ACOG with a Coyote Backpack, GPS, every tool, food and water and everything out the backside spare NVG's, and died, from trying to say "hi" to a survivor. Funny thing was, it was in 1.5.7 so he just died shortly after due to zombies (He shot a Lee in Electro), and the server then crashed, so my stuff was sacrificed to the item god.

I don't care what people do, but don't try to be on a high-horse claiming you "need" to fire first to save your butt and your "precious loots". I've lost tons of stuff only to start over again, and you're worried about losing at most a simple winchester and revolver? You really want to live, get the hell off the shoreline, stick to the shadows and go North, but don't cry that you have to fire first because the "big mean man" shot you first that one time and made you butt-hurt. Either admit you're doing it just because you like shooting people, or because it's a bad area (Airfields/Electro/Cherno), but don't act like you aren't causing the issue yourself. I like combat, and I'll fire in dangerous areas at others, but I can pretty much guarentee I will not shoot someone outside those areas just on sight (or because of a "skin", which thank Rocket he's making pick-up skins you can find).

TL: DR - Be the change you want in the world. Stop shooting and claiming you "need to", and start trying to find ways to identify if someone would shoot you or not. Observe, collect data, and act on that intel. It'll save you a lot of headache than just running up to someone asking "friendly" and finding out you were wrong.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Wise words, HardTarget. Wise words. (I'm going to adopt that "P6" mantra, no doubt.) I can't stress it enough, and he said it way more eloquently than I could ever have:

Be the change you want in the world. Stop shooting and claiming you "need to"' date=' and start trying to find ways to identify if someone would shoot you or not. Observe, collect data, and act on that intel. It'll save you a lot of headache than just running up to someone asking "friendly" and finding out you were wrong.

[/quote']

If you're going to do one thing in this thread, I'd ask you to (re)read his entire post, right above. It's the smartest thing I've read on these forums in a long time.

[Valhingen 0]

Thanks HardTarget and TKJ...really.

From the start of playing this recently I kept thinking, I want to find people to work with, not to shoot for no reason other than they may or may not shoot me. Most frustrating were those who identified themselves as friendly just to shoot at point blank anyways.

Long story short...after reading many such discussions I was juuuust about to submit and join the shoot-on-sight club and hated the thought - but you made a great point, so I will keep dieing more often than others for now :)