Discourage Player Killing Suggestion

[Stalbos 2]

I have an idea that might curb the whole problem of player killing (murder).

I know that most people who play the game, or want to play the game do not intend to shoot other players from the get-go. However, there are some people lost interest in the whole survival half of the game and go on a rampage, There are also those who log on with intent to kill and grief other players because it is more fun than killing zombies to them (bandits).

Personally, I think that this is all okay. However, the problem is less about murder and more about the people who don't want to kill being FORCED into murdering other players whenever they meet someone they do not know. I understand that playing smart, crawling everywhere you go, and building a team gives you the best chance of survival against bandits. However, some of us do not have the time, contacts, or simply the luck to form a tight-knit group every time we log on, leaving us scavanging alone out in the wilderness. This forces players who would otherwise want to be in a team into a situation of shoot first, ask questions never. It is almost as if good behavior is being punished(it is not, but when the average life-span is only 49 minutes, it can feel that way).

So, I propose a slight change to curb player-killing. Specifically, rewards.

I think that the server should save our death/murder ratio in a more permanent fashion. That death/murder ratio would be recorded separately, and never be reset (or reset every year/several months). People who play nice and work as a team would murder less, and if they achive a death/murder ratio of 2:1, they will be awarded a minor damage buff to help kill zombies and other players alike. If a 5:1 ratio is achieved, they will recive some sort of minor health buff. and if they reach a 10:1 ratio, they will recieve perhaps a military uniform that proves that they can be trusted.

Bandits will NOT recieve debuffs, new skins, or anything of that sort. They will simply look like normal players. there will be no identifying marks whatsoever, and they can remain as hidden or as openly blood-thirsty as they like. If you are determined to kill, I'm sure that you can do it without debuffs. Many bandits do it because zombies are not a challenge for them. adding a buff would randomize and increase the variety of difficulty among their prey, making things... more challenging.

It would also make things easier for the newer players who just started, and simply don't know enough about the game to make a choice between bandit or citizen.

Since the rewards would be ratio based, With every murder you make, the more difficult it is to aquire those rewards. meaning, players who want the rewards would have to chose to kill other players only in self defense, and the damage/health buffs would make it easier for them. Bandits who do not care for the buffs would continue on as they normally would.

Now, the rewards should be minor, and I'm sure that the actual details could be changed to something more appropriate. But the fact that bandits should NOT be punished is non-negotiable.

At the very least a "do not shoot" skin should be implemented to make it easier to identify friend from foe, while not immediately giving away who the bad guys are. If there is a player that is just so good that he has killed every bandit that had crossed his path and never died, and has a horrible death/murder, he would not be punished, and has probably made it just fine and doesn't need the skin or the buffs.

If a Bandit has a change of heart, he would be able to repair his murder ratio, but it would take a lot of work to do so. Like how a murderer has to work hard in real life to regain the trust of society, the more blood-thirsty he was, the harder it would be to repair. In turn, if a 10:1 ratio individual wearing a uniform descides to throw a party for the newbies inside the church and toss some grenades in... he will more than likely lose his very delicate 10:1 ratio along with his uniform (unless he reaaaaaly died a lot)

Also, as a side-thought. If having a bandit die a thousand times to repair his ratio seems a bit out there, perhaps having the murder ratio reset every few months to a year would solve that. bandits will have a second chance at >earning< that awesome uniform later if they so chose to.

Just a thought.

If I missed anything big, feel free to build upon it, edit it, or come up with a better design. Players being >forced< to kill others has become a problem, and we all know it needs to be adressed to give players more of a choice about killing others.

[doom4mr 135]

I think there is a problem: I can press Restart five times each time my character dies and has murders count...

[LIGHTS (DayZ) 2]

I like the idea but you should have a skin for bandits. possibly turn your skin color to black?

[drseptapus 49]

I believe Rocket stated that there will never be anything like this ever. I have seen the quote by Rocket in somebodies signature around here, it is something like "if you want balance it's up to you because I am not going to give it to you". The bandit issue is only ever going to be addressed by the survivors, not the devs.

I like the idea but you should have a skin for bandits. possibly turn your skin color to black?

you racist.

Edited July 21, 2012 by drseptapus

[krtshv 362]

[insert Pokemon "oh look, it's this thread again" mere here]

[Kiro (DayZ) 57]

No. It's a full PvP game, punishing PvP doesn't make any sense. Getting killed and killing players is what makes the game exciting.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Kiro

[Stalbos 2]

No. It's a full PvP game, punishing PvP doesn't make any sense. Getting killed and killing players is what makes the game exciting.

You didn't even read the first post if you think I want to get rid of PvP. What I intended was to allow the players choice in the matter. Bandits will still exist, but players will not be FORCED to become a bandit. It will be a choice made by the player.

Also, I made it perfectly clear that there will be NO punishment, and if you read it, you would see. a Bandit can still get the rewards if he works hard enough.

I like the idea but you should have a skin for bandits. possibly turn your skin color to black?

No. we would get into a shoot-on-sight issue where good players with a bad ratio would get shot on sight. That is why Bandits should NOT be punished.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Stalbos

[Stalbos 2]

I think there is a problem: I can press Restart five times each time my character dies and has murders count...

That is indeed a problem, and I did not think that far.

but that is also kind of why I based it off of ratios. if you kill 100 men, you must die 200 times to get 2:1 you must die 500 times to get 5:1 and die 1000 times to get 10:1

Also, if you are a Bandit out to kill, would you really bother putting all of you weapons in a tent to kill yourself ten times for every kill you make?

There will be a point where a bandit will go "to hell with buffs, I got an awesome rifle and don't need them"

That is why I also said the buffs should be minor.

You have a good point, though.

[LIGHTS (DayZ) 2]

it'd be still cool if you could choose to have a bandit skin tho

[Kiro (DayZ) 57]

Bandits will NOT recieve debuffs, new skins, or anything of that sort. They will simply look like normal players.

Not giving a buff to someone because he kills other survivors IS a punishment. That's like not giving candies to a kid because he got bad grades in school. I didn't say you want to get rid of PvP, but that you want to punish it.

What I intended was to allow the players choice in the matter. Bandits will still exist, but players will not be FORCED to become a bandit. It will be a choice made by the player.

You say you want to give players a choice, and yet this choice must be influenced by a reward? We already have a choice, a moral choice that the player has to do, and WE have to do it. The game doesn't tell us to kill or not to kill, only the players interactions do. If this system is introduced, the game will tell us not to kill if we want a reward.

And giving a buff for not killing players is not realistic. Why are my guns magically doing more damages? Why did a uniform just appear from nowhere? Oh, right, because my ratio is lower than bandits.

Watch this interview: http://dayzmod.com/f...fe/#entry387195

Rocket repeats again and again that PvP is awesome and doesn't want to prevent it with fake systems that aren't players-driven (ie moral or depression systems).

Edited July 21, 2012 by Kiro

[Stalbos 2]

I believe Rocket stated that there will never be anything like this ever. I have seen the quote by Rocket in somebodies signature around here, it is something like "if you want balance it's up to you because I am not going to give it to you". The bandit issue is only ever going to be addressed by the survivors, not the devs.

This is less about balance and more about choice. players are being forced to kill each other because they are way too worried about bandits.

There was already a bandit skin implemented a while back, but that was a disaster as people were "murdering" in self-defence, and then getting shot later because of their skins.

By giving the nice players some goodies based upon how little they murder as an incentive, like a "do not shoot" skin, it allows friendlies to identify other friendlies easier, and for strangers to form teams in less time.

Bandits should still exist, and if they work hard enough, they could even wear the "good guy" uniform and infiltrate groups of people if they so chose. Bandits will look like any other player like in the current game regardless, and very little in terms of gameplay would be lost. Of course, this system isn't perfect, and could use a bit of tweaking.

Again, this is more about choice and less about ballance.

[Worrun (DayZ) 108]

I like the idea but you should have a skin for bandits. possibly turn your skin color to black?

Lmao you racist sona!

[Worrun (DayZ) 108]

I think we shouldn't punish PVP or PVE but simply difrenciate it or allow people to chose between the 2 and not be penalised for that, example: PVE servers

[Robert_merello 2]

No. It's a full PvP game, punishing PvP doesn't make any sense. Getting killed and killing players is what makes the game exciting.

If you are playing the game to kill other players... do you know what Arma II is about? go to the native game, join a server & you can kill players, if you are here to survive against zombies by all means play the game, & the mod should not be classified as a zombie survival mod.. rather a survival mod against other players.

[CHOSENMARINE 43]

Players shouldn't be punished for being a bandit, that's just a part of the game. But I do think something should be done to give survivors a warning, or something of that nature.

[Kiro (DayZ) 57]

If you are playing the game to kill other players... do you know what Arma II is about? go to the native game, join a server & you can kill players, if you are here to survive against zombies by all means play the game, & the mod should not be classified as a zombie survival mod.. rather a survival mod against other players.

The creator of the game disagrees, watch this interview: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/40626-rocket-interview-with-sidestrafe/

[Stalbos 2]

Not giving a buff to someone because he kills other survivors IS a punishment. That's like not giving candies to a kid because he got bad grades in school. I didn't say you want to get rid of PvP, but that you want to punish it.

You say you want to give players a choice, and yet this choice must be influenced by a reward? We already have a choice, a moral choice that the player has to do.

And giving a buff for not killing players is not realistic. Why are my guns magically doing more damages? Why did a uniform just appear from nowhere? Oh, right, because my ratio is lower than bandits.

Watch this interview: http://dayzmod.com/f...fe/#entry387195

Rocket repeats again and again that PvP is awesome and doesn't want to prevent it with fake systems that aren't players-driven (ie moral or depression systems).

Alright, plenty of fair points. However, you forgot to quote this part:

If I missed anything big, feel free to build upon it, edit it, or come up with a better design. Players being >forced< to kill others has become a problem, and we all know it needs to be adressed to give players more of a choice about killing others.

It doesn't need to be damage buffs. health buffs can be easily explained in terms of "I am grouped with other people, so we have better quality of food. groups typically have better quality of weapons, as they live with more people and can put more time into weapons maintanance, can cary more equipment, etc.

in reality, the larger the group, the better the overal survivability of the individual becomes.

Also, a murderer isn't going to get all of this from large group dynamics by killing everyone they come across. they will need to team up for it and play nice with someone>>someone<<. Which kind of defeats the purpose of being a bandit.

Also, what kind of choice is a moral choice in this game? pixels disconnect you from morality in DayZ, and morality is by no means a reliable source. the majority of people in this game are not out to directly kill people. However the majority of people are forced to because bandits make them too paranoid.

also, you talk of reality so much, but much of this game is pretty far from it to begin with. Uniforms out of nowhere? how about a soldier who managed to survive the zombies, and is intent on protecting people instead of killing them?

It can all be explained if you are willing to look at it from a "real" perspective. or just another perspective altogether.

Isn't it silly to think that only civilians lived to see the end of the world?

Instead of quoting the interview that I did indeed watch before posting this thread, I suggest you actually contibute and change this idea to something better.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Stalbos

[Stalbos 2]

The creator of the game disagrees, watch this interview: http://dayzmod.com/f...ith-sidestrafe/

You keep mis-qoting Rocket over and over again saying he wants everything the way it is now. From what he said, and I understood it as. He does not want to punish people for PvP, and still wants it to exist in-game. He wants to eventually have an almost world-building expereince with "underground bunker spawns, etc." or something of that nature. He wants to improve the viability of team-play between strangers in-game.

However, the current system is so set against team-play that it is nearly non-existant without outside help from a third-party chat program. a bunch of friends logging in at the same time is the only real way to do it. but if you are a stranger, forget about it. you'll get shot on sight.

Everyone will have candles on their cake. the type of candles will be up to the player with what I'm suggesting. again it doesn't have to be stat buffs, and could be something completely different. but you certainly are not helping solve this problem of lack of choice.

[drseptapus 49]

You keep mis-qoting Rocket over and over again saying he wants everything the way it is now. From what he said, and I understood it as. He does not want to punish people for PvP, and still wants it to exist in-game. He wants to eventually have an almost world-building expereince with "underground bunker spawns, etc." or something of that nature. He wants to improve the viability of team-play between strangers in-game.

However, the current system is so set against team-play that it is nearly non-existant without outside help from a third-party chat program. a bunch of friends logging in at the same time is the only real way to do it. but if you are a stranger, forget about it. you'll get shot on sight.

Everyone will have candles on their cake. the type of candles will be up to the player with what I'm suggesting. again it doesn't have to be stat buffs, and could be something completely different. but you certainly are not helping solve this problem of lack of choice.

He's not saying that rocket wants it the way it is now. He (and I) are saying that there should never be something that influences one play style over another. The relations between players should be handled by the players, not a gameplay mechanic like you are proposing. In my opinion, the guy that started the thread about "making Day Z a living hell" was going in the right direction. In his scenario, the increased difficulty coupled with the minimal resources will lower the benefit of killing another player. This would reduce mindless PvP but not erase it because banditry would still be a viable way to play the game.

As for people killing just to kill. Thats an entirely different issue.

Edited July 21, 2012 by drseptapus

[Stalbos 2]

He's not saying that rocket wants it the way it is now. He (and I) are saying that there should never be something that influences one play style over another. The relations between players should be handled by the players, not a gameplay mechanic like you are proposing. In my opinion, the guy that started the thread about "making Day Z a living hell" was going in the right direction. In his scenario, the increased difficulty coupled with the minimal resources will lower the benefit of killing another player. This would reduce mindless PvP but not erase it because banditry would still be a viable way to play the game.

As for people killing just to kill. Thats an entirely different issue.

This is a game. It will have (and already does to an extent) gameplay mechanics that benefits PVP over team play. I am trying to level everything out so that people can choose. If there was an effective "invite to team" mechanic in the game where you can keep track of who your friends are, then a rewards system would not be necessary.

However, the buffs I am suggesting are intended to be minor in nature. Bandits will float around, but if they intend on killing good guys, it will be a little more challenging. Might take an extra bullet, might have to deal with groups of people surrounding a single guy in uniform instead of the stand-alone paranoid.

You are a reasonable guy, so I'll ask you to go back up to the first post and read the part about the Bandit with a change of heart. This mechanic is not intended to be so rigid that it would make it impossible to be a bandit. It just discourages random killing. If you intend on being a bandit and want to maintain your stat buff/skin/whatever it may be, you need to be selective in those you kill.

random killings is what is making the game frustrating, and most of the people doing that are children who don't see the downside to murder. you add a rewards system, however minor, it should curb the random PvP and focus more on the serious Bandits who want to get something done. Unarmed players especially wouldn't need to worry as much about getting killed because a bandit won't kill unless he has something to gain.

Of course, there are those that just want to see the world burn.

And again, because you are such a reasonable guy, just think this one over a little bit more. try and change it to something less rigid if you find it to be too rigid. remove the buffs if you'd like, but there should be something in there that would benefit team-creation, or at the very least encourage people to restrain themselves in a zombie infested world.

I would say add more zombies until people murder less(the main villain becoming the zombies), but I do not know what the server can take.

There are plenty of ideas, a reward system for the players who don't want to be bandits is just one.

[sparta436 46]

haha... NO

[RAINB0WLAMA 4]

YYYYYYEEEEEESSSSSS! Best idea ever!

[drseptapus 49]

This is a game. It will have (and already does to an extent) gameplay mechanics that benefits PVP over team play. I am trying to level everything out so that people can choose. If there was an effective "invite to team" mechanic in the game where you can keep track of who your friends are, then a rewards system would not be necessary.

However, the buffs I am suggesting are intended to be minor in nature. Bandits will float around, but if they intend on killing good guys, it will be a little more challenging. Might take an extra bullet, might have to deal with groups of people surrounding a single guy in uniform instead of the stand-alone paranoid.

You are a reasonable guy, so I'll ask you to go back up to the first post and read the part about the Bandit with a change of heart. This mechanic is not intended to be so rigid that it would make it impossible to be a bandit. It just discourages random killing. If you intend on being a bandit and want to maintain your stat buff/skin/whatever it may be, you need to be selective in those you kill.

random killings is what is making the game frustrating, and most of the people doing that are children who don't see the downside to murder. you add a rewards system, however minor, it should curb the random PvP and focus more on the serious Bandits who want to get something done. Unarmed players especially wouldn't need to worry as much about getting killed because a bandit won't kill unless he has something to gain.

Of course, there are those that just want to see the world burn.

And again, because you are such a reasonable guy, just think this one over a little bit more. try and change it to something less rigid if you find it to be too rigid. remove the buffs if you'd like, but there should be something in there that would benefit team-creation, or at the very least encourage people to restrain themselves in a zombie infested world.

I would say add more zombies until people murder less(the main villain becoming the zombies), but I do not know what the server can take.

There are plenty of ideas, a reward system for the players who don't want to be bandits is just one.

What gameplay mechanics do you think favor PvP? I would argue that right now there is a stunning lack of anything like that which is why PvP is the issue that it is. Right now, if you are alone, there is no reason to NOT kill anybody other you the player, deciding that you want to group up or that you simply don't want to. I think it is just part of the gamers mentality to kill each other. I do not think the PvP issue should be, or will be solved by any kind of reward/incentive system. After participating in a couple threads, I have formed the opinion that PvP will eventually become somewhat reasonable.

I think this will happen because:

-Weapons and ammo are going to spawn much less frequently (as stated by Rocket)

-The thread I mentioned earlier (Day Z becoming a living hell) has been noticed by moderators and will hopefully be incorporated in some capacity in coming updates.

-Rocket's interview with FPSGuru (there is a thread around her somewhere) had a couple points that I thought would make the world harder to survive in, accenting the philosophy in my previous point. Also if you bother to look at that thread, you will see: "19. The world is unfair and unbalanced and it will stay that way." and "14. No skill points. Ever."

It is my personal preference that the game stay raw and keep the interactions as real as possible. However I don't disagree that your ideas will alleviate the PvP problem, I would just prefer the gritty reality that in a zombie apocalypse, tensions would be high and the stress of the situation might drive people to be a little trigger happy.

I would also like to reiterate that people killing people just to kill people is not what I am talking about. I am strictly talking about confrontations in which players kill each other out of mistrust.

Edited July 22, 2012 by drseptapus

[Flying Mathias 18]

I think discouraging PvP is a bad idea. I think encouraging teamwork is the way to go, but your post didn't get it right. All of your solutions are gamey, and unrealistic.

For example, make it so some areas are only accessible by 2 or more people. Ie, one player boosting the other up onto a ledge, someone lifting up a garage-style door so their friend can crawl under it...

[Kiro (DayZ) 57]

"14. No skill points. Ever."

Apparently he changed his mind. In his lastest interview he said he'll try implementing random skills to players to increase teamwork. If you need other players you're not going to shot them. I hope it won't be possible to farm for skills and just stand in your base healing and shoting at someone to increase your healing skill :/ A Eve Online model would be cool, ie you could increase your skill automatically, even when you're logged out.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Kiro