Balance changes due for "high-end" items and more

[ForcefulCJS 16]

I'll try to keep this post succinct, some of the rare items need to be adjusted or removed as this game works its way toward beta:

1 - Ghillie Suits) There needs to be some downside for this item. The simplest and most agreeable change is that it removes the player's backpack or at least keeps the player's backpack visible. Right now Ghillie suits make it extremely easy for anyone to become almost invisible at 200m+ and Ghillie+Pine Tree = Easy mode concealment. There's plenty of reasons why everyone wouldn't want to wander around in bush-suits in a real zombie apocalypse yet right now these are the single most important item for surviving long-term against other players. While everyone else derps around with white sleeves that stand out from a long-distance, ghillies give an extreme advantage to those camping the treelines. Further changes could include the chance of "overheating" or "heat stroke" if the player runs long distances while wearing the Ghillie (another reflection of reality). Having the ghillie impair movement or vision are also viable options. All of these are far more realistic and sensible for gameplay than the current Ghillie with an invisible backpack and 0 downsides. It makes most observation, scouting, and recon pointless when you can't see any ghillie snipers until they take their first shot and you're already dead - at least give them some downsides to their loadout.

2 - L85A2 AWS) I think this one speaks for itself. Thermal vision destroys everything else that PvP in DayZ stands for. Slow, deliberate movement - concealment - careful positioning - etc. are all realistic and sensible things to do while trying to stay alive before the L85 was introduced. Now if you're up against an L85 user, the best thing you can do is run like a madman to shake up their 3x scope and pray that they can't line up a shot before you get out of range. I've used the L85 myself and everyone else I've played with agrees that it's utterly broken. I can spot any player outdoors up to the draw distance in just a couple seconds of scanning and hunt them down easier than killing most animals in this game. Going up against an L85 user is absolutely no fun and makes even the most stalwart player consider ragequitting. You are left with 2 unhappy options: Staying concealed and waiting for the inevitable burst of fire to kill you or keep moving and draw attention from other hostile players or the L85 user's squadmates. Advanced military hardware should make limited and sensible appearances in DayZ, a thermal scope is an example of something that just doesn't belong.

3 - NVGs) I think most players agree that night-time would be much more fun without the constant threat of NVG users. Night time provides an extremely interesting trade-off in visibility between flashlights, flares, and chemlights - each providing its own advantages and disadvantages. All that goes out the window once NVG's enter the picture. They have a massive edge over any other option and heavily discourage night-time play for those without NVG's. If you are wandering the map using flashlights, flares, or chemlights for visibility you are literally a massive neon sign saying "FREE KILL" for the first NVG user to find you. There's nothing the "regular player" can do to fight back. Flares offer some defense but they also draw zombies, plus any competent shooter will kill you before you even realize that you're being stalked by an NVG user. I think the night-game would improve dramatically if they just removed NVG's from the game, but an acceptable alternative would be to add rare batteries required to give the NVG's power and make the NVG's consume the batteries at a relatively fast rate. It would actually force NVG users to use other methods of illumination besides several hours of perfect visibility at night and even encourage them to put their neck on the line by going into towns/loot spots for batteries at night instead of just stalking treelines and never needing to expose themselves.

4 - M107 & AS-50) Almost every sniper rifle in the game does 8000 damage. The .50 cals do around 38,000 damage and the NATO round for the AS-50 does over 170,000 damage. I think the CZ-550, M14, DMR, M24, and SVD are all in a great place in terms of balance for sniper rifles. They encourage you to go for headshots, and at least give the victim half a chance to take cover when they get shot - encouraging snipers to be more tactical in their attacks. There is also something extremely important in requiring at least 2 shots to down a victim, since it means that non-headshot kills risk exposing your position with each subsequent shot. Shots to the legs/extremities with most snipers only does around 2.5-3k damage, encouraging you to at least aim for vital organs. Now let's look at the .50 cals, they do such obscene damage, one-shot anywhere will drop your opponent. This is HUGE. You have very little risk of exposing your position with just 1-shot, and there's absolutely 0 chance for your opponent to react against being shot at. Even shooting them in stupid places like the arms and legs will instantly kill your opponent. Again, I understand these are nasty weapons, but I think we can live with a game where a .50 shot to the thigh doesn't instantly knock me out and kill me. Keep the high damage of the anti-material round against vehicles but balance the damage of .50 cals so they aren't such massive noobcannons, the AS-50 is arguably the most out of place since it's actually quieter to players than any most of the smaller sniper rifles. If the DayZ team refuses to tone down the damage so only upper torso/headshots are one-hit, other methods should still be considered. Make the .50 cal sniper rifles slow down player movement considerably and give the weapons a more noticeable muzzle flash and smoke from firing the weapon. Consider making these two weapons take up 15 inventory slots or more when stored in a backpack. The presence of crashed helicopters has made these weapons practically standard-issue for all snipers - there needs to be more of a downside to using these weapons. Like the L85 they don't really fit the setting when everyone north of Starry is running around with a small cannon on their backs.

Final Note: Pine Trees/Bushes, I just thought I should mention these as something to consider for Arma 3. Right now, with just a couple seconds of adjustment any player can sit several feet within the branches of a pine tree or bush and have nearly perfect visibility. This makes hiding/camoflouge in this game very monotonous when hiding in one of these two common plants is your best bet 98% of the time. Right now I can sit in one of these hiding spots and be almost completely invisible unless someone trips over me and still have an excellent view of my surroundings. For Arma 3, make it so that players can't sit in the middle of trees and bushes - covered by several feet of thick foliage - and still have unhindered visibility. This would go a long way to making camping a more risky affair from the current state where the camper will always remain unseen until he takes a shot.

[RayPugh 146]

meh another one of 'those' threads

[Red_Sky 140]

meh another one of 'those' threads

What's the point of having a forum if you're not gonna have "these" threads.

Besides, he seems to know what he's talking about.

[zyfer.nyholm@gmail.com 131]

meh another one of 'those' threads

this.

[Daddy'o (DayZ) 146]

OP is using the word game, where the mod creator is using the term anti-game. You want balance, where the mod creator has stated he does not want to create balance. You want fun and fairness where Rocket wants simulation and realism.

[RayPugh 146]

lol if ppl actually used the search feature they would know what I ment. this is not the first and unfortunatly it wont be the last time somone starts a new thread because some gear is 'op'

if you take all the end game loot out what do you replace it with?

if you dont like being sniped by ppl with nvgs a ghillie and a very big gun then dont frequent the same areas.

and finally, are there any friendlies in cherno? I need a blood bag.

[Excession (DayZ) 7]

What's the point of having a forum if you're not gonna have "these" threads.

Besides, he seems to know what he's talking about.

Knows what he is talking about?

He moans about the Ghillie Suit in the first paragraph, then in the second wants the one thing that negates the Ghillie taken out.........

[ZomboWTF 527]

suggestion forum please, and yes, i know it will be buried in the thousands of "fixing pvp" and "make safezones" threads, but thats how it goes, buddy

[ForcefulCJS 16]

OP is using the word game, where the mod creator is using the term anti-game. You want balance, where the mod creator has stated he does not want to create balance. You want fun and fairness where Rocket wants simulation and realism.

And I gave you realism. If he wanted anti-game why would he dot the map with crashes (American) helicopters loaded with American, British, and Beglian high-grade military equipment and medical supplies that are not realistic and only make the game easier from a zombie survival perspective. In each of my posts I explained how my changes could improve gameplay AND add realism.

[DoshDosh 62]

OP is using the word game, where the mod creator is using the term anti-game. You want balance, where the mod creator has stated he does not want to create balance. You want fun and fairness where Rocket wants simulation and realism.

If Rocket wanted realism, he would have added sleeping, crapping, fatigue, and removed most of the weapon spawns in the game.

[ZomboWTF 527]

I'll try to keep this post succinct, some of the rare items need to be adjusted or removed as this game works its way toward beta:

1 - Ghillie Suits) There needs to be some downside for this item. The simplest and most agreeable change is that it removes the player's backpack or at least keeps the player's backpack visible. Right now Ghillie suits make it extremely easy for anyone to become almost invisible at 200m+ and Ghillie+Pine Tree = Easy mode concealment. There's plenty of reasons why everyone wouldn't want to wander around in bush-suits in a real zombie apocalypse yet right now these are the single most important item for surviving long-term against other players. While everyone else derps around with white sleeves that stand out from a long-distance, ghillies give an extreme advantage to those camping the treelines. Further changes could include the chance of "overheating" or "heat stroke" if the player runs long distances while wearing the Ghillie (another reflection of reality). Having the ghillie impair movement or vision are also viable options. All of these are far more realistic and sensible for gameplay than the current Ghillie with an invisible backpack and 0 downsides. It makes most observation, scouting, and recon pointless when you can't see any ghillie snipers until they take their first shot and you're already dead - at least give them some downsides to their loadout.

ghillie suits are one of the rarest and most wanted items in the game, yes, it does conceal you when laying in the grass to about 100%, but thats what it is MADE for

and btw, no one will overheat in a f***ing ghillie in the middle of f***ing RUSSIA

2 - L85A2 AWS) I think this one speaks for itself. Thermal vision destroys everything else that PvP in DayZ stands for. Slow, deliberate movement - concealment - careful positioning - etc. are all realistic and sensible things to do while trying to stay alive before the L85 was introduced. Now if you're up against an L85 user, the best thing you can do is run like a madman to shake up their 3x scope and pray that they can't line up a shot before you get out of range. I've used the L85 myself and everyone else I've played with agrees that it's utterly broken. I can spot any player outdoors up to the draw distance in just a couple seconds of scanning and hunt them down easier than killing most animals in this game. Going up against an L85 user is absolutely no fun and makes even the most stalwart player consider ragequitting. You are left with 2 unhappy options: Staying concealed and waiting for the inevitable burst of fire to kill you or keep moving and draw attention from other hostile players or the L85 user's squadmates. Advanced military hardware should make limited and sensible appearances in DayZ, a thermal scope is an example of something that just doesn't belong.

again, a really really really rare weapon, and since thermal vision is only in its scope with 3x zoom, you cant just run around like a derp spotting everything while running, hiding behind trees etc. still conceals you, and since the gun is so god damn rare people tend to go in groups

thermal isnt OP, theres only ONE item in the game with thermal, and its hell as rare, its not even that much better than night vision, its just a counter for ghillies suits which you were whining about in the first section

3 - NVGs) I think most players agree that night-time would be much more fun without the constant threat of NVG users. Night time provides an extremely interesting trade-off in visibility between flashlights, flares, and chemlights - each providing its own advantages and disadvantages. All that goes out the window once NVG's enter the picture. They have a massive edge over any other option and heavily discourage night-time play for those without NVG's. If you are wandering the map using flashlights, flares, or chemlights for visibility you are literally a massive neon sign saying "FREE KILL" for the first NVG user to find you. There's nothing the "regular player" can do to fight back. Flares offer some defense but they also draw zombies, plus any competent shooter will kill you before you even realize that you're being stalked by an NVG user. I think the night-game would improve dramatically if they just removed NVG's from the game, but an acceptable alternative would be to add rare batteries required to give the NVG's power and make the NVG's consume the batteries at a relatively fast rate. It would actually force NVG users to use other methods of illumination besides several hours of perfect visibility at night and even encourage them to put their neck on the line by going into towns/loot spots for batteries at night instead of just stalking treelines and never needing to expose themselves.

i dont have nvgs, most of the time i run around with gamma and brightness settings high and a chemlight in my hand, its just about as good as NV, you're not visible from more then 50m and you arent blinded by flares, which i can say, is a DOWNSIDE OF NVGS

4 - M107 & AS-50) Almost every sniper rifle in the game does 8000 damage. The .50 cals do around 38,000 damage and the NATO round for the AS-50 does over 170,000 damage. I think the CZ-550, M14, DMR, M24, and SVD are all in a great place in terms of balance for sniper rifles. They encourage you to go for headshots, and at least give the victim half a chance to take cover when they get shot - encouraging snipers to be more tactical in their attacks. There is also something extremely important in requiring at least 2 shots to down a victim, since it means that non-headshot kills risk exposing your position with each subsequent shot. Shots to the legs/extremities with most snipers only does around 2.5-3k damage, encouraging you to at least aim for vital organs. Now let's look at the .50 cals, they do such obscene damage, one-shot anywhere will drop your opponent. This is HUGE. You have very little risk of exposing your position with just 1-shot, and there's absolutely 0 chance for your opponent to react against being shot at. Even shooting them in stupid places like the arms and legs will instantly kill your opponent. Again, I understand these are nasty weapons, but I think we can live with a game where a .50 shot to the thigh doesn't instantly knock me out and kill me. Keep the high damage of the anti-material round against vehicles but balance the damage of .50 cals so they aren't such massive noobcannons, the AS-50 is arguably the most out of place since it's actually quieter to players than any most of the smaller sniper rifles. If the DayZ team refuses to tone down the damage so only upper torso/headshots are one-hit, other methods should still be considered. Make the .50 cal sniper rifles slow down player movement considerably and give the weapons a more noticeable muzzle flash and smoke from firing the weapon. Consider making these two weapons take up 15 inventory slots or more when stored in a backpack. The presence of crashed helicopters has made these weapons practically standard-issue for all snipers - there needs to be more of a downside to using these weapons. Like the L85 they don't really fit the setting when everyone north of Starry is running around with a small cannon on their backs.

its not a game where guns need to be balanced, its a game where every gun is dangerous

also, sniper rifles are made for killing people before they can counteract (from a great distance) so making the sniper rifles less powerfull would completely kill the reason for them to exist at all

Final Note: Pine Trees/Bushes, I just thought I should mention these as something to consider for Arma 3. Right now, with just a couple seconds of adjustment any player can sit several feet within the branches of a pine tree or bush and have nearly perfect visibility. This makes hiding/camoflouge in this game very monotonous when hiding in one of these two common plants is your best bet 98% of the time. Right now I can sit in one of these hiding spots and be almost completely invisible unless someone trips over me and still have an excellent view of my surroundings. For Arma 3, make it so that players can't sit in the middle of trees and bushes - covered by several feet of thick foliage - and still have unhindered visibility. This would go a long way to making camping a more risky affair from the current state where the camper will always remain unseen until he takes a shot.

you just posted in the first thread that this is considered tactic and players should behave like that, now you're saying its OP, get your shit sorted out

also, it helps playing on veteran servers with only 1st person view, less advantage for the campers

Edited July 20, 2012 by Zombo

[RayPugh 146]

realism check

huge open map; check

houses and vegetation to make the map feel real; check

loads of infected runing around eating people: che... hey wait a min! thats not real at all!!!

i have heard alot of rumblings about batteries, and yes they may add a little realism to nvg use and thermal scopes ect. really tho this is the same thread somone else wrote, maybe a little more words in the middle

[Ganzor 8]

We demand realism, not balance!

Now let me put this main rotor assembly for a helicopter in my backback...

[Jack Dant 158]

1 - Ghillie Suits) There needs to be some downside for this item. The simplest and most agreeable change is that it removes the player's backpack or at least keeps the player's backpack visible. Right now Ghillie suits make it extremely easy for anyone to become almost invisible at 200m+ and Ghillie+Pine Tree = Easy mode concealment. There's plenty of reasons why everyone wouldn't want to wander around in bush-suits in a real zombie apocalypse yet right now these are the single most important item for surviving long-term against other players. While everyone else derps around with white sleeves that stand out from a long-distance, ghillies give an extreme advantage to those camping the treelines. Further changes could include the chance of "overheating" or "heat stroke" if the player runs long distances while wearing the Ghillie (another reflection of reality). Having the ghillie impair movement or vision are also viable options. All of these are far more realistic and sensible for gameplay than the current Ghillie with an invisible backpack and 0 downsides. It makes most observation, scouting, and recon pointless when you can't see any ghillie snipers until they take their first shot and you're already dead - at least give them some downsides to their loadout.

Honestly, I don't see the ghillie as such a huge advantage over camo. The ghillie is sightly too bright so it only really works when prone. With camo, you can crouch with your back to a tree and be close to invisible from a distance. Do the same in ghillie, and you are bright green on dark green background. Let us change the colour of civilian clothes a bit (paint, dyes, or even just putting dirt on it), and it will all be more reasonable.

[chaR 40]

I'll try to keep this post succinct, some of the rare items need to be adjusted or removed as this game works its way toward beta:

1 - Ghillie Suits) There needs to be some downside for this item. The simplest and most agreeable change is that it removes the player's backpack or at least keeps the player's backpack visible. Right now Ghillie suits make it extremely easy for anyone to become almost invisible at 200m+ and Ghillie+Pine Tree = Easy mode concealment. There's plenty of reasons why everyone wouldn't want to wander around in bush-suits in a real zombie apocalypse yet right now these are the single most important item for surviving long-term against other players. While everyone else derps around with white sleeves that stand out from a long-distance, ghillies give an extreme advantage to those camping the treelines. Further changes could include the chance of "overheating" or "heat stroke" if the player runs long distances while wearing the Ghillie (another reflection of reality). Having the ghillie impair movement or vision are also viable options. All of these are far more realistic and sensible for gameplay than the current Ghillie with an invisible backpack and 0 downsides. It makes most observation, scouting, and recon pointless when you can't see any ghillie snipers until they take their first shot and you're already dead - at least give them some downsides to their loadout.

The thing is that people could just swap between civilian & ghillie clothing in the blink of an eye negating some of the stuff you said.

Backpack showing on ghillie is about the least that should happen.

Though, Ghillie should just be removed. It's so broken, even if it is slightly nerfed.

Keep camo clothing or maby improve it a bit even, but ghillies don't really have a place in this game.

2 - L85A2 AWS) I think this one speaks for itself. Thermal vision destroys everything else that PvP in DayZ stands for. Slow, deliberate movement - concealment - careful positioning - etc. are all realistic and sensible things to do while trying to stay alive before the L85 was introduced. Now if you're up against an L85 user, the best thing you can do is run like a madman to shake up their 3x scope and pray that they can't line up a shot before you get out of range. I've used the L85 myself and everyone else I've played with agrees that it's utterly broken. I can spot any player outdoors up to the draw distance in just a couple seconds of scanning and hunt them down easier than killing most animals in this game. Going up against an L85 user is absolutely no fun and makes even the most stalwart player consider ragequitting. You are left with 2 unhappy options: Staying concealed and waiting for the inevitable burst of fire to kill you or keep moving and draw attention from other hostile players or the L85 user's squadmates. Advanced military hardware should make limited and sensible appearances in DayZ, a thermal scope is an example of something that just doesn't belong.

I've seen 2 L85s since I started playing this game.

They are extremely rare to begin with, which sortoff balances it out in my opinion.

But I can see why many people dislike this weapon.

3 - NVGs) I think most players agree that night-time would be much more fun without the constant threat of NVG users. Night time provides an extremely interesting trade-off in visibility between flashlights, flares, and chemlights - each providing its own advantages and disadvantages. All that goes out the window once NVG's enter the picture. They have a massive edge over any other option and heavily discourage night-time play for those without NVG's. If you are wandering the map using flashlights, flares, or chemlights for visibility you are literally a massive neon sign saying "FREE KILL" for the first NVG user to find you. There's nothing the "regular player" can do to fight back. Flares offer some defense but they also draw zombies, plus any competent shooter will kill you before you even realize that you're being stalked by an NVG user. I think the night-game would improve dramatically if they just removed NVG's from the game, but an acceptable alternative would be to add rare batteries required to give the NVG's power and make the NVG's consume the batteries at a relatively fast rate. It would actually force NVG users to use other methods of illumination besides several hours of perfect visibility at night and even encourage them to put their neck on the line by going into towns/loot spots for batteries at night instead of just stalking treelines and never needing to expose themselves.

No, people would simply avoid playing nightservers at all. I don't think I've ever played on a nightserver with more than 15 people on it. And the only thing those people do is safely lootcycle high valued buildings, which otherwise are way to dangerous, with either NVG or gammy & brightness max'd out.

There is almost nobody who actually plays on the darkest servers. Nighttime in this game needs a serious rework.

I've been out at nighttime myself before in forests far from the "living" world and yes, you can easily forget how dark it can get without lightpolution when there is no moon around.

Yet you can still see your own shoulders and hands when you hold them in front of your face.

Furthermore, this is an example of where realism shouldn't be as much of a concern as playability. This game is totally unplayable at nighttime if you don't have NVG.

The way you run with a flashlight is in a way unrealistic aswell, since I can perfectly run while still keeping the flashlight aimed at the road in front of me.

The visibility at night should simply be tweaked in favor of making nighttime playable. Nobody is wants to slowly walk around a 225km² map because else they can't see shit without a flashlight out.

The increase in visibility doesn't even have to be that much, just enough to actually see your own character and your immediate surrounding, the rest can stay pitchblack dark.

Another thing, closely related to nighttime is the way flashlights are equipped. It can be an incredible hassle if you have a small/full backpack and you have to take a flashlight out. It isn't realistic either, since it's perfectly possible to hold a secondary weapon and a flashlight at the same time.

In short:

Before removing NVG:

> Regular visibility at night needs to be slightly improved. Even if this means the realistic factor needs to take a small blow.

> One should be able to run and aim a flashlight in front of him. Only when running, not when sprinting.

> One should be able to hold a flashlight and a secondary weapon at the same time, possibly at the cost of reduced accuracy/higher recoil when firing the secondary weapon.

4 - M107 & AS-50) Almost every sniper rifle in the game does 8000 damage. The .50 cals do around 38,000 damage and the NATO round for the AS-50 does over 170,000 damage. I think the CZ-550, M14, DMR, M24, and SVD are all in a great place in terms of balance for sniper rifles. They encourage you to go for headshots, and at least give the victim half a chance to take cover when they get shot - encouraging snipers to be more tactical in their attacks. There is also something extremely important in requiring at least 2 shots to down a victim, since it means that non-headshot kills risk exposing your position with each subsequent shot. Shots to the legs/extremities with most snipers only does around 2.5-3k damage, encouraging you to at least aim for vital organs. Now let's look at the .50 cals, they do such obscene damage, one-shot anywhere will drop your opponent. This is HUGE. You have very little risk of exposing your position with just 1-shot, and there's absolutely 0 chance for your opponent to react against being shot at. Even shooting them in stupid places like the arms and legs will instantly kill your opponent. Again, I understand these are nasty weapons, but I think we can live with a game where a .50 shot to the thigh doesn't instantly knock me out and kill me. Keep the high damage of the anti-material round against vehicles but balance the damage of .50 cals so they aren't such massive noobcannons, the AS-50 is arguably the most out of place since it's actually quieter to players than any most of the smaller sniper rifles. If the DayZ team refuses to tone down the damage so only upper torso/headshots are one-hit, other methods should still be considered. Make the .50 cal sniper rifles slow down player movement considerably and give the weapons a more noticeable muzzle flash and smoke from firing the weapon. Consider making these two weapons take up 15 inventory slots or more when stored in a backpack. The presence of crashed helicopters has made these weapons practically standard-issue for all snipers - there needs to be more of a downside to using these weapons. Like the L85 they don't really fit the setting when everyone north of Starry is running around with a small cannon on their backs.

Sorry but no.

If you wan't .50cals to not 1-shot players, go play fucking Call of Duty.

There is already a significant muzzleflare on the M107 & AS50, the M107 is already incredibly loud & even though the AS-50 isn't as loud, it can still be heared from very far away.

If you don't want a .50cal to instakill a player, the least that should happen is that you lose your hand/arm/leg/foot if you are hit in such a spot. If you'd eat a .50cal bullet to your tigh & see your leg flying off like a ragdoll in real life, I have my doubts on whether you wouldn't pass out, let alone being able to react to who shot you and orientate/aim. Especially not since you play a civilian in this game, who probably never held a gun before in his life.

I'm all for nerfing them in a realistic way, such as having them influence movement speed, backpack space, etc... I strongly believe that weapons & backpack weight should have a significant impact on your movement speed, so there actually is a reason to use weapons such as the MP5 (which there isn't at all right now). People just dump everything in their backpack n run around like it's nothing. When you fill 20 slots with cans of beans or you fill it with a M107 while already carrying a M14, there should be a huge difference.

The concept of weapons like sniper rifles being stashed in bags is kinda silly aswell.

I'd love to see anybody stash an AS50 in a bag IRL. Stashing weapons like MP5, revolvers, etc... should remain since it's possible IRL, but bigger guns shouldn't be able to be put in a backpack.

Also, the AS50 isn't as bad as you make it look.

First of all, it is more rare than the M107 and I've personally never seen one as loot. The only ones our group has found are from raiding a clan's camp, which had 3 of them over the course of ~30tents.

And we've actually seen _1_ player that was carrying the weapon.

Second of all, the ammunition for the AS50 is even more rare. I've NEVER seen an AS50 mag ingame. And something very few players know is that when using M107 rounds with the AS50, the damage isn't the only thing that decreases (which is pretty much neglible). Using M107 rounds in the AS50 completely destroys its accuracy. It's impossible to hit long range targets with M107 ammunition in an AS50.

Final Note: Pine Trees/Bushes, I just thought I should mention these as something to consider for Arma 3. Right now, with just a couple seconds of adjustment any player can sit several feet within the branches of a pine tree or bush and have nearly perfect visibility. This makes hiding/camoflouge in this game very monotonous when hiding in one of these two common plants is your best bet 98% of the time. Right now I can sit in one of these hiding spots and be almost completely invisible unless someone trips over me and still have an excellent view of my surroundings. For Arma 3, make it so that players can't sit in the middle of trees and bushes - covered by several feet of thick foliage - and still have unhindered visibility. This would go a long way to making camping a more risky affair from the current state where the camper will always remain unseen until he takes a shot.

It's still quite easy to spot players in bushes without camo/ghillie. Atleast I don't have any trouble with it.

It's only when they have a camo/ghillie suit that it becomes troublesome.

And even that isn't a problem. People should be able to conceal themselves.

Again, just like with .50cals not being 1shot1kill, go play fucking CoD if you can't live with that.

Edited July 20, 2012 by chaR

[Sergio Leone 3]

Now let me put this main rotor assembly for a helicopter in my backback...

Yea, I'd like to see someone trying to squeeze an MG or M107 in an ALICE backpack, let alone a main rotor assembly...

[drake_hb@hotmail.com 22]

I disagree with every suggestion. People especially need to stop whining about NVGs

[integ3r 5]

Batteries is a needed mechanic.

L85A2 scope should need batteries, FAL with NV scope should need batteries and NVGs should need batteries.

GPS should allow waypoints (currently all you need is a map) and it should require batteries. Rangefinder should require batteries.

Sure, they'll still be overpowered in combat but DayZ is not a combat game. It's a survival game. It's OK if someone has "OP" equipment. It's what makes it interesting. Why is running a bad idea if you live another day? It's a good thing.

Edited July 20, 2012 by integ3r

[TheDude8D 13]

4 - M107 & AS-50) Almost every sniper rifle in the game does 8000 damage. The .50 cals do around 38,000 damage and the NATO round for the AS-50 does over 170,000 damage. I think the CZ-550, M14, DMR, M24, and SVD are all in a great place in terms of balance for sniper rifles. They encourage you to go for headshots, and at least give the victim half a chance to take cover when they get shot - encouraging snipers to be more tactical in their attacks. There is also something extremely important in requiring at least 2 shots to down a victim, since it means that non-headshot kills risk exposing your position with each subsequent shot. Shots to the legs/extremities with most snipers only does around 2.5-3k damage, encouraging you to at least aim for vital organs. Now let's look at the .50 cals, they do such obscene damage, one-shot anywhere will drop your opponent. This is HUGE. You have very little risk of exposing your position with just 1-shot, and there's absolutely 0 chance for your opponent to react against being shot at. Even shooting them in stupid places like the arms and legs will instantly kill your opponent. Again, I understand these are nasty weapons, but I think we can live with a game where a .50 shot to the thigh doesn't instantly knock me out and kill me. Keep the high damage of the anti-material round against vehicles but balance the damage of .50 cals so they aren't such massive noobcannons, the AS-50 is arguably the most out of place since it's actually quieter to players than any most of the smaller sniper rifles. If the DayZ team refuses to tone down the damage so only upper torso/headshots are one-hit, other methods should still be considered. Make the .50 cal sniper rifles slow down player movement considerably and give the weapons a more noticeable muzzle flash and smoke from firing the weapon. Consider making these two weapons take up 15 inventory slots or more when stored in a backpack. The presence of crashed helicopters has made these weapons practically standard-issue for all snipers - there needs to be more of a downside to using these weapons. Like the L85 they don't really fit the setting when everyone north of Starry is running around with a small cannon on their backs.

Hey. Hey buddy. My cousin has a friend who was in the army. He got shot IN HIS FOOT by a 50. cal. and guess what? It blew of his entire lower leg almost to his knee.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

rocket has specifically said he is not interested in realism.

Why?

To avoid ridiculously circular, go-nowhere discussions precisely like the one that's currently taking place in this thread.

So feel free to keep running each other around in logical circles all day, but nobody of import is listening.

The game will not be balanced and it will not strive for realism in all areas.

If items and weapons are powerful, use them to your advantage.

[P5ykoOHD 63]

Why balance ?

A Lee Enfield is all you need to remove those "big bad boys" from the map ... learn to play and be less dependent on your gear instead of making thread after thread crying about stuff that would logically exist irl is such "event" was to happen ... jesus, you think military bases are full of Carebear candy and teadybears ?

[mrducky (DayZ) 33]

1. Ghillie has one disadvantage. It makes very clear that you're a sniper who likes to lurk around in the bushes. Essentially, that marks that you are most likely a sniping bandit, at least in my mind. It is only useful is you truly are prone somewhere, sniping - not when scavenging the cities, etc. Thus, I try to shoot every ghillie suited guy I see (Its a marker of a likely hostile player, like the old bandit skins). Whereas for the civilian clothed people, I might actually sometimes assume they are friendly and don't shoot on sight.

I'm not sure as to how many other players really treat the clothing as any kind of cue of the person, but I might assume that many associate a player in a ghillie as less likely to be friendly than one wearing civilian clothes. So ghillie ain't your elektro market shopping clothing or for making friends.

That does not mean that it should not give a clear advantage over other clothing when used in the correct environment. As it should.

It would make sense to have a little bit of downsides too, like more heat buildup on a sunny day causing you to get thirsty / get exhausted faster, etc. But for any kind of realism, these differences should probably be so miniscule that their effect on ghillie usage would be irrelevant. Snipers would still use them.

2. Never had one myself. Can't comment.

3. Yes, excess of these totally change the balance at night time servers. It is currently quite suicidal to play on a pitch black night time server if you don't have one, which is a pity because the night time play can be really atmospheric. (Full moon night time is a different thing, because it does not require the use of any light sources, just maxing out the gamma. So it's not really fully "night time" gameplay-wise.) If it weren't a suicide to turn on the flashlight at night due to NVGs people might actually start playing on those servers again. (I mean other players than those using night to loot the NWA or snipe the few flashlight noobs at coast)

4. Like with all the other high end gear... I don't really believe the issue is that these weapons exist in the game world and that they are highly powered compared to other weapons... The problem is that the amount of this stuff probably keeps building up in the game. And they might be coming more of a standard issue rather than the really rare weaponry they should be. (Still, yes, it would be sensible/realistic that these weapons slow down movement / take more space.)

And I have no idea as to how to really make the rare items stay rare without some artificial mechanics. If more of them keep on spawning, and people hoarding them to tents and vehicles, then... How can you prevent them from becoming more and more common? Either by ensuring that the playerbase grows fast enough to offset the loot buildup (non-viable option in long term) - or by ensuring that the loot somehow starts to end up destroyed once a certain amount has been reached in the game world.

You know, there is a reason why most of the MMOs have an exponential level-up pricing logic, and certain mechanisms that work as spawns and sinks for the collected stuff. That is how you build up a working economy of things, so that it reaches a certain desired stable state. Not by just just changing the spawn rates alone, that just speeds up or slows down the eventual build-up.

And please don't reply that "go back to WoW", I don't play that game. I'm just stating that the other game devs are not putting those features in, just because they would be stupid or randomly ending up doing so - It's because there are reasons of general economics behind them.

[RayPugh 146]

ive said it before and im going to say it again, if a crazy axe murderer finds a shiny piece of kit, he will use it to continue his murderous spree. but think of the implications of a solo survivor style player finding a 50 cal! Is he really going to leave it on the ground in aid of fairness and love of one another, keep rolling round with his normal zombie popper and never think of shooting another person. no no no he's probably gonna take it to the nearest hot spot and try grab a murder or two. ppl always think of high end loot in reference to organized groups, they never think how game changing these things are to your avrg solo guy

[oZiix 45]

I'll try to keep this post succinct, some of the rare items need to be adjusted or removed as this game works its way toward beta:

1 - Ghillie Suits) There needs to be some downside for this item. The simplest and most agreeable change is that it removes the player's backpack or at least keeps the player's backpack visible. Right now Ghillie suits make it extremely easy for anyone to become almost invisible at 200m+ and Ghillie+Pine Tree = Easy mode concealment. There's plenty of reasons why everyone wouldn't want to wander around in bush-suits in a real zombie apocalypse yet right now these are the single most important item for surviving long-term against other players. While everyone else derps around with white sleeves that stand out from a long-distance, ghillies give an extreme advantage to those camping the treelines. Further changes could include the chance of "overheating" or "heat stroke" if the player runs long distances while wearing the Ghillie (another reflection of reality). Having the ghillie impair movement or vision are also viable options. All of these are far more realistic and sensible for gameplay than the current Ghillie with an invisible backpack and 0 downsides. It makes most observation, scouting, and recon pointless when you can't see any ghillie snipers until they take their first shot and you're already dead - at least give them some downsides to their loadout.

Ghillie suit does the same thing it does in the real world camouflage you in woodland areas. You can make a ghillie big enough to cover your equipment(backpack) No problem there since this uses Arma a military SIMULATION engine. Its not over powered or needs a con. Its con is if your running around a Urban area you stick out like a sore thumb just like in real life.

2 - L85A2 AWS) I think this one speaks for itself. Thermal vision destroys everything else that PvP in DayZ stands for. Slow, deliberate movement - concealment - careful positioning - etc. are all realistic and sensible things to do while trying to stay alive before the L85 was introduced. Now if you're up against an L85 user, the best thing you can do is run like a madman to shake up their 3x scope and pray that they can't line up a shot before you get out of range. I've used the L85 myself and everyone else I've played with agrees that it's utterly broken. I can spot any player outdoors up to the draw distance in just a couple seconds of scanning and hunt them down easier than killing most animals in this game. Going up against an L85 user is absolutely no fun and makes even the most stalwart player consider ragequitting. You are left with 2 unhappy options: Staying concealed and waiting for the inevitable burst of fire to kill you or keep moving and draw attention from other hostile players or the L85 user's squadmates. Advanced military hardware should make limited and sensible appearances in DayZ, a thermal scope is an example of something that just doesn't belong.

Its thermal it does what its suppose to give you a advantage. Same thing it would do in the real world. Again Simulation vs Game

3 - NVGs) I think most players agree that night-time would be much more fun without the constant threat of NVG users. Night time provides an extremely interesting trade-off in visibility between flashlights, flares, and chemlights - each providing its own advantages and disadvantages. All that goes out the window once NVG's enter the picture. They have a massive edge over any other option and heavily discourage night-time play for those without NVG's. If you are wandering the map using flashlights, flares, or chemlights for visibility you are literally a massive neon sign saying "FREE KILL" for the first NVG user to find you. There's nothing the "regular player" can do to fight back. Flares offer some defense but they also draw zombies, plus any competent shooter will kill you before you even realize that you're being stalked by an NVG user. I think the night-game would improve dramatically if they just removed NVG's from the game, but an acceptable alternative would be to add rare batteries required to give the NVG's power and make the NVG's consume the batteries at a relatively fast rate. It would actually force NVG users to use other methods of illumination besides several hours of perfect visibility at night and even encourage them to put their neck on the line by going into towns/loot spots for batteries at night instead of just stalking treelines and never needing to expose themselves.

NVG's don't use RARE batteries in real life so they don't need them in DayZ. Your standard triple A's work in PSv1-PSv7. Only thing that isn't represented is lack in depth perception. Which is the draw back to NVG's at night in the real world. Simulation vs Game again

4 - M107 & AS-50) Almost every sniper rifle in the game does 8000 damage. The .50 cals do around 38,000 damage and the NATO round for the AS-50 does over 170,000 damage. I think the CZ-550, M14, DMR, M24, and SVD are all in a great place in terms of balance for sniper rifles. They encourage you to go for headshots, and at least give the victim half a chance to take cover when they get shot - encouraging snipers to be more tactical in their attacks. There is also something extremely important in requiring at least 2 shots to down a victim, since it means that non-headshot kills risk exposing your position with each subsequent shot. Shots to the legs/extremities with most snipers only does around 2.5-3k damage, encouraging you to at least aim for vital organs. Now let's look at the .50 cals, they do such obscene damage, one-shot anywhere will drop your opponent. This is HUGE. You have very little risk of exposing your position with just 1-shot, and there's absolutely 0 chance for your opponent to react against being shot at. Even shooting them in stupid places like the arms and legs will instantly kill your opponent. Again, I understand these are nasty weapons, but I think we can live with a game where a .50 shot to the thigh doesn't instantly knock me out and kill me. Keep the high damage of the anti-material round against vehicles but balance the damage of .50 cals so they aren't such massive noobcannons, the AS-50 is arguably the most out of place since it's actually quieter to players than any most of the smaller sniper rifles. If the DayZ team refuses to tone down the damage so only upper torso/headshots are one-hit, other methods should still be considered. Make the .50 cal sniper rifles slow down player movement considerably and give the weapons a more noticeable muzzle flash and smoke from firing the weapon. Consider making these two weapons take up 15 inventory slots or more when stored in a backpack. The presence of crashed helicopters has made these weapons practically standard-issue for all snipers - there needs to be more of a downside to using these weapons. Like the L85 they don't really fit the setting when everyone north of Starry is running around with a small cannon on their backs.

A 50.cal sniper rifile will kill you in 1 shot in real life. If I aim at your foot in real life and fire I will probably blow off half of your leg. 50.cal sniper rifles are for vehicles. Actually the according to the Geneva Convention your not even suppose to use it against human targets. The loop hole is that you can say you targeted their equipment. The damage for those rifiles ingame is so high because its taking in account vehicle damage which is what they are designed for. So yea it should kill you in one shot no matter where you hit them. Real world best you can hope for is that you don't bleed out from having half a limb blown off. The other rifles in the game are designed for engaging human targets which is why they dont do as much damage. Simulation vs Game

Its a military simulation or based off of Arma's military simulation style. It does so very very well as someone who is in the military that place the game its spot on in my opinion. If this was another shooter then yea balance is important. The way they are in DayZ is fine because having a 50 cal sniper means you can still die to a guy with a AK at CQC or a lee einfield user.

There is no AIM ASSIST in this game you have to either already know or learn how to engage targets with each gun using their sights. When I play cod or any other FPS I don't have to know the mil-dot formula I just aim center mass.

The only shot in this game that is self explanatory to anyone that has played any fps before in their life is anything 300m or less because most guns are Zero'd to that range in real life anything beyond that you actually have to start accounting for bullet drop and calculating distances. Unless you have a range finder but if your target is moving then you have to account for that. Only gun that makes it EASIER is DMR because of its little recoil and semi fire function. Other snipers don't really let you spray and pray.

Edited July 20, 2012 by oZiix

[DesertRose 8]

1. Deal with it

2. Deal with it

3. Deal with it

I have spent hours upon hours and hours of looting barracks, crash sites and camp sites searching for items, I have fought killed and died for my haul of loot and vehicles. I have learnt by watching other peoples mistakes and taking advantage of them as they make them, also making afew of my own.

Edited July 20, 2012 by DesertRose