Simple Solution to Banditry

[bochung 17]

Something I've noticed while playing Day Z, is that you really can't trust anyone. Hell, I wouldn't even trust me.

The beautiful thing about Day Z is that we are free to do whatever we want, and unfortunately due to human nature and the current "mechanics" of the game this means kill everyone and be an asshole to weaker players. I'm not saying that this is a problem, I love the added survival aspect of the game, getting loot, avoiding zombies, and avoiding the bandits.

The problem, as I see it, is the rampant banditry. There is absolutely no incentive to not kill the stranger you see off in the distance. Why even try to communicate when you risk death and betrayal, when you can just shoot them and loot their hard-earned gear?

On top of that, there's no risk either, no downside, no consequence. As I understand it, the bandit skins were implemented to try and stop this, but was removed because Rocket said it left, "a bad taste in his mouth." He also added that, "I'm sort of just leaving it 'as is' at the moment in the hopes that things spontaneously solve themselves or a better approach comes along."

Well I'd that he was on the right track, he just didn't hit the mark. (Yes, I've done my homework).

It's been two months, and the game has changed. The general consensus is Shoot on Sight, and therein lies the problem.

Now before I explain, let me say that I love the design of Day Z. I love how it has nothing to do with making money, I love how most of the gameplay is left to the players to decide, and I love how it's like an anti-game compared to most games today. I never want to see the game have a money system, achievement system, tutorial, F2P with micropayments, or ANYTHING REMOTELY ASSOCIATED WITH THE CRAP WE HAVE TODAY. I want the game to stay as it is, run by the players, decided by the players and that is why I'm making this suggestion.

There is no cooperation of survivors anymore, it's team up and kill or die alone. Everyone is a bandit, whether they want to be or not, there is simply no distinction between the two factions. A game that is in a perfect position to become something amazing is turning into a free-for-all deathmatch with zombies.

Not everyone wants to kill, but there is just no choice. The incredible psychological human element to the game that drew so many of us in has effectively eliminated any chance of cooperation. If someone says that they are friendly, the first thing that goes through your mind now is, "Is he just going to shoot me anyway when I come out?" Likewise, the other person is probably thinking the same thing. In the end, both will come to the conclusion that they would rather kill than be killed.

The factions that I'm talking about are, the people who play the game to kill others, and the people who play the game to survive and make Day Z fantastic. What do I mean by fantastic? I mean I want to see true cooperation going on between survivors. I want the bandits to be seen as the "bad guys" that they've chosen to become.

I want to see survivors organizing taxi services with vehicles and buses, rescue parties with helicopters, unofficial guards for major cities. I want them to chase the bandits to the northern hills and desolate plains where they belong, a true faction vs faction war.

So here's my suggestion: Bring the bandit skins back, but do it differently.

Only make a survivor don the bandit skin when they shoot first (discontinued idea, see below). Do this on the first kill, no exceptions. If you choose to shoot first, the consequence is that you get a bandit skin.

Now for the bandit skin itself, make them noticeable! Add a red headband on them, give them some sort of marking that doesn't go away, even when they wear a ghille suit.

Now add "Bandit Kills" to the debug screen. See what I'm getting at? Bandit kills are now a good thing. It's good to kill bandits, hunt them down. Band with other survivors and scavenge the hills for those scumbags. The ultimate consequence for killing someone: you're going to become a prime target for survivors.

Not only does this add realism (Isn't that the main selling point of the game?), but it provides the perfect balance to the coop vs pvp aspect. You don't sacrifice either or, you just add to the existing mechanic. This also keeps the hands-off approach to Day Z that's made it so wonderful, there's no "Pick a faction" screen, it's just another realistic part of the simulation.

This also allows players to decide which way they want the game to go, do you want cooperative survival, or do you want all out PVP deathmatch? If everyone really wants to kill each other, the world will be full of bandits. If coop is the way to go, then bandits will be running scared. This gives you the unique opportunity to literally fight for your game.

The easiest way I can summarize this is:

Want to kill? Kill someone and be a bandit, join your bandit friends.

Want to survive? Stay a survivor, help others in need and if you die, another survivor will take care of you when you respawn.

Want to survive and kill? Stay a survivor, hunt them dirty bandits down.

So in conclusion, a simple way to keep banditry, and the coop survival of Day Z together and balanced while adding fun and maintaining the Day Z spirit.

Thanks for reading.

PS Rocket, as for keeping skins, I'm sure there's a way to allow skins for both sides and make it visibly obvious which side they belong to. If you'd like a suggestion, send me a PM!

Obviously this is just a starting idea, and I just wanted to get the ball rolling. Please point out any holes and such, and I will address them as best I can. This idea can work, there is no hole that cannot be patched.

I see quite a few problems with this. The biggest one I see is, say a group of bandits attack you. One of them just got the game and hasn't got his first kill yet. What do you do? 'I don't want to be labelled a bandit forever, so I'll just kill all of them except for this one'. No it doesn't work that way. People shouldn't be segragated due to choices they may or may not have been forced to make. There are many situations in which people are required to do things they wouldn't on a normal basis and they may not be proud of those choices but they had to do what they needed to, to survive.

That's excellent, I hadn't thought of that yet. The most basic rule of this that I'd like is that nobody will ever be labeled incorrectly. My first thought to solving this would be a complicated solution involving scripting and such, but I'm sure a much more simple alternative is there. I'm tired right now, but I'm more than happy to take a look at this later. Again, this could all be solved with a simple "Bandit or Survivor" screen at the beginning of the game, but that would be taking the easy way out and striding away from the Day Z spirit. If anyone has an idea, please speak your mind!

NOTHING DISCOURAGING BANDITS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED. THEY TOOK OUT THE BANDIT SKINS FOR A REASON. THAT IS BASICALLY SAYING THE GUY WHO WANTS TO BE A BANDIT GETS TO BE PENALIZED BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE PISSED AT YOU.

HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY THIS BEFORE PEOPLE WILL STOP TRYING TO FUCK BANDITS!!?!?

Nothing about this discourages bandits, it merely discourages rampant, needless killing and a complete lack of cooperation.

Besides, bandits right now aren't really bandits, they don't even trust each other. They're groups of friends running around laughing as they kill strangers. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that (I do it too, it's fun, so sue me) but it shouldn't be the main part of the game.

I like your ideas a lot! Having areas of the map controlled by like-minded people would be epic!

However, my only problem is your "shoot first" become bandit idea. What if I shoot first in self defence when a crazed lunatic with a hatchet is swinging at me. It kind of defeats the idea of survive at all costs, which is an idea that is key to the atmosphere of the game. This is the only problem I can see being created, I for one am fed up of people declaring friendly only to kill me moments later when my back is turned and my trust is gained.

Cooperation vs Bandits would be a very cool ethic for the game and would create many opportunities for player decided Role-playing.

I salute you sir for your ideas, even if I do believe the "shoot first" needs a tad more deliberation :)

Thank you for reminding me, this doesn't necessarily have to include the shoot first idea, the problem with a lot of ideas is that they start with one thing and then tunnel vision into oblivion. If someone would like to start thinking of a different approach to the identifying killers, please do and post!

I'm not saying that this is a problem

The problem, as I see it, is the rampant banditry.

I stopped reading here.

There is no "bandit problem". It's a post-apocalyptic survival game, with very few humans left and everyone struggling to survive. Of course people are shooting others, because everyone is a threat. There are no more laws, no more witnesses, all is left are dangerous zombies and scarce weapons to defend yourself.

Find a clan, get their trust and play with them. That's what I do and when we meet another player he runs for his life.

I stopped reading here.

I stopped reading here.

It shows that you did not join this thread with any intention to give an idea a chance, you just joined to argue against the idea you thought it was. In fact, you even admit that you stopped reading, before the real reading began. (lol) Read the entire post and realize that what I'm suggesting does not conflict with your current gameplay. There is no "bandit problem," I agree, the problem is that there is no reason not to be a bandit.

To be honest, this whole idea of players completely running towns cooperatively sounds really boring. The PvE aspect of this entire game is really boring once you know how to effectively avoid zombies or just have a silenced weapon.

I'd prefer to see the whole PvE side of the game to become a lot harder, less weapons, less ammo, harder zombies with better AI etc. So you really need to use your supplies in do or die situations, hopefully making people think a lot more if they should waste ammo on a player, cause it could mean they end up in a PvE situation with them dead, hopefully ending up in more players helping each other just to survive.

Not running towns, but helping each other survive. I'm not talking about clearing cities of zombies and installing a mayor (ugh), I'm talking about makeshift 'services' to help your fellow survivor.

A group of survivors patrols Cherno to keep it safe for their fellow man, greets newbies and gives them essentials.

I read something about a guy going around as "The Doctor" and he had an entourage of people who protected him as they went server to server helping people, that sounds amazing!

A group of people organize a bus that goes along the main road on the beach to give free rides to people.

The possibilities are endless and it's all limited by the fact that nobody wants to work together and help eachother survive in the zombie apocalypse.

Even without the bandit skin idea, raising the difficulty a ton would work as well. Making it so nightmarish that banding together is the only way to survive would be a good way to stop reckless killing. Again, I just want to get the ball rolling, I'm not saying my idea is the best one out there.

I've been thinking about this and I think a karma system maybe the answer to it.

For example:

You start at 100 Karma, that would be neutrality.

Anything less than 50 would be bad karma (give you the Bandit skin)

Anything higher than 150 could give you good karma and a +2% chance of finding rarer loot (just a random idea to promote cooperation without being excessive, could also give you a "nice guy survivor" skin.

This would also keep the thrill of not knowing whether to trust a player if they are between 51 and 149 karma as they will still be donning the standard survivor skin.

Here are some ideas on the karma points:

- You could lose 10 karma for killing a player (5 murders = bandit)

- Gain 10 karma for killing a bandit who has killed more than 10 people.

- Gain x amount of karma for give other players items

- Bandit who gave other bandits items would not gain karma so that they could stay bandits if they wished. However, the could gain karma and work their way back to positive karma by giving survivors items or by killing zombies with a certain radius of a survivor (kind of like a saviour kill on Battlefield 3).

Another related idea that would help with another major issue of the game is: Give players 3 karma for every 25 minutes they play without logging out. Logging out within that 25 minutes would stop you gaining that karma. Obviously bandits might not necessarily want to gain karma so playing for 25 minutes at a time could gain them a +0.25% chance of finding better loot (up to a maximum of 2% to equal that of the good karma advantage)

These are only a few things that I have thought of, the whole karma interface could be easily implemented in the debug monitor and could have certain perks for bad/good karma. Then it is up to you to decide how you play.

Let me know what you think (remember all values involved are just ideas and could be easily changed) :)

I'm much more in favor of a karma system now that I think about it, although I think loot chances are way too game-y for Day Z and implementing that would be much harder than a conventional MMO due to the way items are spawned. I love the idea of people in between keeping the tense, "Do I trust this person?" while giving truly good survivors the chance to help people.

Edited July 16, 2012 by bochung

[0only1 4]

We hope that they will allow skin modifications In the future, which is good, being able to decide what you want to look like. But don't you think that any kind of indicators either it's tags, names, hats, uniforms are lame in a free game ? I mean its part of the danger and of the action not knowing what is coming to you every step you take.

Not a bad idea tho, we ll see.

[Plakmeister 0]

I like your idea

[0only1 4]

I mean if you want to wear sth that says I am bandit then fine, if not the system shouldn't force you.

[bochung 17]

We hope that they will allow skin modifications In the future, which is good, being able to decide what you want to look like. But don't you think that any kind of indicators either it's tags, names, hats, uniforms are lame in a free game ? I mean its part of the danger and of the action not knowing what is coming to you every step you take.

Not a bad idea tho, we ll see.

This doesn't take away from any of that, but rather, the current system does. Are you saying that when you play right now and see a player you don't immediately think that they're going to try and kill you?

By doing this, it's not only bringing back the fear that you could be killed by another survivor, albeit there being less of a chance (they'll know that there are consequences to killing a fellow survivor), but it's also adding a new gameplay aspect to Day Z as a whole and eliminating the putrid free-for-all it's becoming.

Edited July 16, 2012 by bochung

[specterm 25]

Nice post. Its nice to see someone understands our gripe.

[MaxxOrion 5]

I see quite a few problems with this. The biggest one I see is, say a group of bandits attack you. One of them just got the game and hasn't got his first kill yet. What do you do? 'I don't want to be labelled a bandit forever, so I'll just kill all of them except for this one'. No it doesn't work that way. People shouldn't be segragated due to choices they may or may not have been forced to make. There are many situations in which people are required to do things they wouldn't on a normal basis and they may not be proud of those choices but they had to do what they needed to, to survive.

A bandit isn't going to make himself stand out. Nor should he be forced too. I completely agree with you in that it has become a shoot on sight policy, no exceptions. At least it has for me, after about my 15th time of being murdered. But this is all just my opinion.

Edited July 16, 2012 by MaxxOrion

[Jgut90 71]

There is a small percentage of good survivors out there, though there are more "kill on sight" survivors that aren't necessarily bandits it's just the paranoia making most of the people kill each other.

My suggestion would be: Player will be turned to a (not obvious)bandit skin when you have killed 5(maybe) survivors so that if you would kill in self-defense you would not turn into a bandit directly.

[Jonesy (DayZ) 29]

Well written mate, I support this idea.

[bochung 17]

I see quite a few problems with this. The biggest one I see is, say a group of bandits attack you. One of them just got the game and hasn't got his first kill yet. What do you do? 'I don't want to be labelled a bandit forever, so I'll just kill all of them except for this one'. No it doesn't work that way. People shouldn't be segragated due to choices they may or may not have been forced to make. There are many situations in which people are required to do things they wouldn't on a normal basis and they may not be proud of those choices but they had to do what they needed to, to survive.

That's excellent, I hadn't thought of that yet. The most basic rule of this that I'd like is that nobody will ever be labeled incorrectly. My first thought to solving this would be a complicated solution involving scripting and such, but I'm sure a much more simple alternative is there. If anyone has an idea, please speak your mind!

[Regicide 111]

The red headband idea is just simply silly. In real life, who would be stupid enough to wear a red headband while trying to stay hidden in bushes?

[0only1 4]

You are right, but I would shoot people with guns cause they would do the same. But this have to do with that it is a game, not real life. I could slay people 4fun here, but in real life I would blame my self 4ever and I would feel really bad for my actions. The flag system and karma is the best possible Option to resolve that problem but idk if I want to see that in dayz. Tho with karma you would become target sth like most wanted and would require lots of support to survive with karma sth like making a gang of bandits. But as I said it's not lineage 2 it's dayz and any graphical indicator would destroy the element of realism. The other option would be go with your system and then set it as an option like the crosshair and 3dp, removable in hardcore servers.

[YoungOBI 3]

My suggestion would be: Player will be turned to a (not obvious)bandit skin

Yeah something subtle like their hat is worn backwards or they switch to being left handed, something small enough to where they look friendly but give you that "oh shit, he's a bandit" feeling

[Kiro (DayZ) 57]

]I'm not saying that this is a problem

The problem, as I see it, is the rampant banditry.

I stopped reading here.

There is no "bandit problem". It's a post-apocalyptic survival game, with very few humans left and everyone struggling to survive. Of course people are shooting others, because everyone is a threat. There are no more laws, no more witnesses, all is left are dangerous zombies and scarce weapons to defend yourself.

Find a clan, get their trust and play with them. That's what I do and when we meet another player he runs for his life.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Kiro

[bochung 17]

The red headband idea is just simply silly. In real life, who would be stupid enough to wear a red headband while trying to stay hidden in bushes?

In real life, who would drink an old, warm, dusty can of Pepsi to quench thirst? Eat food to regain blood? Simply put, sacrifices of realism are made in order to make a game, a game. Although I agree with you that the headband thing is a bit ridiculous (it's just an example), the real life argument is not really valid in application to a game. I appreciate the input though, if you have a better idea please make it known! Not being sarcastic, seriously, if you have a good idea, I'd love it!

[CurlyFender Guy 5]

I like your ideas a lot! Having areas of the map controlled by like-minded people would be epic!

However, my only problem is your "shoot first" become bandit idea. What if I shoot first in self defence when a crazed lunatic with a hatchet is swinging at me. It kind of defeats the idea of survive at all costs, which is an idea that is key to the atmosphere of the game. This is the only problem I can see being created, I for one am fed up of people declaring friendly only to kill me moments later when my back is turned and my trust is gained.

Cooperation vs Bandits would be a very cool ethic for the game and would create many opportunities for player decided Role-playing.

I salute you sir for your ideas, even if I do believe the "shoot first" needs a tad more deliberation :)

[Quaby 93]

I was playing with my group yesterday. One of us had VOIP, the rest of us didn't. We were able to successfully avoid 3 separate survivors with talking. Most people don't want to shoot on sight, but I feel like "better safe than sorry". Also...

NOTHING DISCOURAGING BANDITS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED. THEY TOOK OUT THE BANDIT SKINS FOR A REASON. THAT IS BASICALLY SAYING THE GUY WHO WANTS TO BE A BANDIT GETS TO BE PENALIZED BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE PISSED AT YOU.

HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY THIS BEFORE PEOPLE WILL STOP TRYING TO FUCK BANDITS!!?!?

[bochung 17]

You are right, but I would shoot people with guns cause they would do the same.

I'm not entirely sure if you read my post, because that's exactly what I said was the problem.

[0only1 4]

Kiro the only problem is that we try to have a realistic game with unrealistic actions, but at the same time theres no realism when zombies included :P

[bochung 17]

I was playing with my group yesterday. One of us had VOIP, the rest of us didn't. We were able to successfully avoid 3 separate survivors with talking. Most people don't want to shoot on sight, but I feel like "better safe than sorry". Also...

NOTHING DISCOURAGING BANDITS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED. THEY TOOK OUT THE BANDIT SKINS FOR A REASON. THAT IS BASICALLY SAYING THE GUY WHO WANTS TO BE A BANDIT GETS TO BE PENALIZED BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE PISSED AT YOU.

HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY THIS BEFORE PEOPLE WILL STOP TRYING TO FUCK BANDITS!!?!?

Nothing about this discourages bandits, it merely discourages rampant, needless killing and a complete lack of cooperation.

Besides, bandits right now aren't really bandits, they don't even trust each other. They're groups of friends running around laughing as they kill strangers. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that (I do it too, it's fun, so sue me) but it shouldn't be the main part of the game.

[zzSTABBYzz 9]

+1

[0only1 4]

No matter what system you decide will be ok it will work as you say, but it's just not realistic as people avoid 3dp and name indicators the same people would avoid the bandit indicators. That's all.

[bochung 17]

I like your ideas a lot! Having areas of the map controlled by like-minded people would be epic!

However, my only problem is your "shoot first" become bandit idea. What if I shoot first in self defence when a crazed lunatic with a hatchet is swinging at me. It kind of defeats the idea of survive at all costs, which is an idea that is key to the atmosphere of the game. This is the only problem I can see being created, I for one am fed up of people declaring friendly only to kill me moments later when my back is turned and my trust is gained.

Cooperation vs Bandits would be a very cool ethic for the game and would create many opportunities for player decided Role-playing.

I salute you sir for your ideas, even if I do believe the "shoot first" needs a tad more deliberation :)

Thank you for reminding me, this doesn't necessarily have to include the shoot first idea, the problem with a lot of ideas is that they start with one thing and then tunnel vision into oblivion. If someone would like to start thinking of a different approach to the identifying killers, please do and post!

[bochung 17]

I'm not saying that this is a problem

The problem, as I see it, is the rampant banditry.

I stopped reading here.

There is no "bandit problem". It's a post-apocalyptic survival game, with very few humans left and everyone struggling to survive. Of course people are shooting others, because everyone is a threat. There are no more laws, no more witnesses, all is left are dangerous zombies and scarce weapons to defend yourself.

Find a clan, get their trust and play with them. That's what I do and when we meet another player he runs for his life.

I stopped reading here.

I stopped reading here.

It shows that you did not join this thread with any intention to give an idea a chance, you just joined to argue against the idea you thought it was. Read the entire post and realize that what I'm suggesting does not conflict with your current gameplay. There is no "bandit problem," I agree, the problem is that there is no reason not to be a bandit.

[0only1 4]

Do you know why people kill players ? Cause pve is boring, it's like playing with bots. In every game npcs exist so as you farm. The real challenge is the players will always be like that the only way to decrease random kills "bandits" will be by making this action worthless of anything. Then you would need a war system between groups of players so as these players would stop killing random survivors and aim only for the members of the opponent team. So simple.