Staff: Need clarification on ban-able offenses

[{sas}stalker 108]

True but you missed the point entirely. Without the people paying for the servers how much of an big scale alpha would there be?

Well yes and no, the fact remains that there will always be servers because not everyone will take them down to prove a point. The bigger issue is that rampant exploiting and cheating does more damage to a game than a bad admin / host does. How many games have we seen fall by the wayside because of unhindered cheating?

There is an inherent lack of trust between dev and admin at this time which is undoubtedly been created due to the actions of a minority of hosts/admins. As stated, the path we are on now will ultimately lead to a more damaging situation in the long run.

For many people who are hosting, hosting isn’t something new, many of us have been at this for years and our communities foundations are built on intelligent admining. The solution as ever with these sorts of things is down to the community as a whole though, servers with idiot admins, what ever the game should simply be avoided. If you have a bad experience then move on, find one that you enjoy and support it by playing on it. Its not rocket science and poor ones will fall by the way side. Its been this way since hosting began.

Right now, if I had my way I would pull our Dayz server and walk away from it because I feel like not only am I fighting a plethora of exploiting and cheating players but I feel like the Dev team are not only against me but are actually happy to support the very people who are causing the problems.

[jskibo 143]

The very nature of the game design as it currently sits and it's popularity require a massive amount of servers to keep it running. Since the servers can only handle tens of players, up to about 70 with current hardware, there's no way to have a few giant servers running what the community needs in order to sustain itself in its current and growing form.

The Dev team is too small to manage hundreds or thousands of servers, screen the logs and ensure they are running properly and free of exploiters, they also lack the cash resources to provide such a large amount of space to play.

Thus the Dev team decided its up those in the community with both the time and resources required to pony up and provide the player base a place to play.

However they are also saying we don't trust those that provide that space, resources and volunteer time to do so the way we want it done. There is a possibility you might do it wrong, therefore please send us the logs, videos, screenshots or other proof when you want to ban someone and we will look at it and get back to you in some undefined amount of time.

So if you as a Dev team don't have time to manage and pay for your own servers, how the hell are you going to have time to scroll through thousand of tickets and gigabytes of log files we send to you. And do so within an effective amount of time that discourages player exploit behavior?

Put a little faith in those that give up their cash and time to help you out, after all, we put at risk a hell of a lot more money each month than some script kiddie that buys a script and copy of the game and doesn't give a damn about your mod, player base or future of the game.

Look around Dev team, there's an exponential amount more players exploiting your game and who could give two shits about your success than mods abusing what limited power they have.

Change your path or fold your tents and put your little experiment back in the box....

[MarKeR (DayZ) 57]

Big man. Maybe we should just bomb some countries with innocent parties aswell, but atleast make sure there's no terrorism. Afterwards survivors can still apply for a formal apology.

If they come to your TS, does that generally happen before or after you spread their GUID's amongst the other admins like some servers advertise?

Grow the fck up, report the exploits as asked and wait on the fix.

Who the fuck do you think you are, I put my post out there, that I would rather have over 600,000 players being able to acces my server, fully knowing it was locked down as much as it could be..

And no, the guids stay with me now...

Someone needs to grow the fuck up and it ain't me....

Christ this communty fucking sux at times... Stay out the conversation if you have nothing to add to it..

Edited July 18, 2012 by MarKeR

[SubSeven 4]

Well yes and no, the fact remains that there will always be servers because not everyone will take them down to prove a point. The bigger issue is that rampant exploiting and cheating does more damage to a game than a bad admin / host does. How many games have we seen fall by the wayside because of unhindered cheating?

There is an inherent lack of trust between dev and admin at this time which is undoubtedly been created due to the actions of a minority of hosts/admins. As stated, the path we are on now will ultimately lead to a more damaging situation in the long run.

For many people who are hosting, hosting isn’t something new, many of us have been at this for years and our communities foundations are built on intelligent admining. The solution as ever with these sorts of things is down to the community as a whole though, servers with idiot admins, what ever the game should simply be avoided. If you have a bad experience then move on, find one that you enjoy and support it by playing on it. Its not rocket science and poor ones will fall by the way side. Its been this way since hosting began.

Right now, if I had my way I would pull our Dayz server and walk away from it because I feel like not only am I fighting a plethora of exploiting and cheating players but I feel like the Dev team are not only against me but are actually happy to support the very people who are causing the problems.

Didnt mean to offend you by any means. We are arguing the same point here. I fully understand you concerns and im having nearly the exact same thoughts.

Edited July 18, 2012 by SubSeven

[thmsrox 14]

Who the fuck do you think you are, I put my post out there, that I would rather have over 600,000 players being able to acces my server, fully knowing it was locked down as much as it could be..

And no, the guids stay with me now...

Someone needs to grow the fuck up and it ain't me....

Christ this communtynfucking six at times... Stay out the conversation if you have nothing to add to it..

Sorry, I was unaware that going against your opinions, supplying just one random topic from todays ban appeals regarding servers / admins, and trying to make the point that you don't mind banning up to 30 people in order to get rid of bad apples didn't contribute to this conversation. I'll refrain myself from posting further on the topic and leave you in your mighty glory. I do suppose it's the community that's in the wrong trying to defend some innocents. I'm happy you keep the GUID's to yourself now.

Enjoy your train of posts containing the message that admins need a bigger banhammer without anyone slowing you down.

[MarKeR (DayZ) 57]

No mate, you started the abuse not me...

And to compare real life terrorist activities against a game is just fucking stupid...

It's a game, those 30, 50 or whatever other number can use over 3000 over servers! Maybe even use the server you run and admin,or maybe that one would be hacked and exploited to fuck, and no one would want to join it?

Maybe you might get a decent reply next time if you weren't so condescending and abusive...

Edited July 18, 2012 by MarKeR

[{sas}stalker 108]

Didnt mean to offend you by any means. We are arguing the same point here. I fully understand you concerns and im having nearly the exact same thoughts.

No offence was taken matey, I likely didn’t make my original comment that clear anyways :). I do often "post and go" :P

[thmsrox 14]

No mate, you started the abuse not me...

And to compare real life terrorist activities against a game is just fucking stupid...

It's a game, those 30, 50 or whatever other number can use over 3000 over servers! Maybe even use the server you run and admin,or maybe that one would be hacked and exploited to fuck, and no one would want to join it?

Maybe you might get a decent reply next time if you weren't so condescending and abusive...

My apologies for being unable to withstand the force that pulls me back into this topic, and also for the somewhat extreme example I used to make a point. That said, you still seem to have a firm standing on the point that you don't mind to ?temp?ban 30 - upto 50 / whatever other number now and direct them to the 3000 other servers. I personally don't like to let comments like these pass - again my apologies. Those innocents may have chosen your server as a "home", just like most people I know frequent the same server(s). No problem though, there's 3000 more out there - I genuinely feel sorry for those people + the fact it's just not fun knowing you've been banned for no reason whatsoever. Guilty until proven not guilty? C'mon...

That said, I don't have any sympathy for the ones that deserved the ban to begin with, although I don't condone the manner of the ban and the fact that they are (I think) permanent. Again I request you just leave it to the developers or have a better debate going that doesn't involve the point that most admins make here (it's my server I do what I want and I want it clean).

[{sas}stalker 108]

I request you just leave it to the developers or have a better debate going that doesn't involve the point that most admins make here (it's my server I do what I want and I want it clean).

How is this achieved though when arguably it involves a longer drawn out process as well as more work than dealing with the odd idiot admin. Is it feasible for me (and every host) to upload hundreds of gigs of logs every day for a small dev team to deal with ?

I am happy to be treated like a child so long as I am spoon fed like one.

The only saving grace in all of this is that for the most part the dev team ignore most of the butt hurt player posts as much as they ignore us, the hosts.

Edited July 18, 2012 by {SAS}Stalker

[MarKeR (DayZ) 57]

The point is, a lot of admins like myself spend a good few hours every week going over the logs searching for hackers, exploiters etc..

We have more time than the devs to scour gigs of text based logs to try and get these people who are wasting the game for you guys...

If I mistakenly ban people then there would be some sort of reason for me to do it, I dont indiscriminately Ban people...I am sure they would be mature enough to get in touch somehow and state their case, or ask me to go over the logs again, which I would.

I have been banned from servers from other games, usually because I have pissed off the admin, does it bother me, not a jot.. Move on to another server...

The points made by the admins on this thread are all viable as far as I can see.. And it would take the stress off of the devs..

The other option would be to submit ban reports with the evidence after the fact and see if they are allowed to stand..

[thmsrox 14]

How is this achieved though when arguably it involves a longer drawn out process as well as more work than dealing with the odd idiot admin. Is it feasible for me (and every host) to upload hundreds of gigs of logs every day for a small dev team to deal with ?

I am happy to be treated like a child so long as I am spoon fed like one.

The only saving grace in all of this is that for the most part the dev team ignore most of the butt hurt player posts as much as they ignore us, the hosts.

- As far as I'm aware - the update on the topic involving the report-system was only announced yesterday (maybe 2 days ago). Right now I'm not aware of how many of those reports have actually been made / handled, but isn't it a bit soon to shoot it down entirely?

[thmsrox 14]

The point is, a lot of admins like myself spend a good few hours every week going over the logs searching for hackers, exploiters etc..

I respect that, but instead of searching pre-emptive, maybe trying a different approach like searching pro-active (e.g. a player notifies you of abuse and you look into it firmly - tempban for a day / week and give the report system a chance to respond to it. This may even save you time that's wasted on reading every bit of the logs? I do know this might make your server less "clean", but if no one of your veteran players has complained about it, is it really worth it? It may even save you time instead.

[{sas}stalker 108]

- As far as I'm aware - the update on the topic involving the report-system was only announced yesterday (maybe 2 days ago). Right now I'm not aware of how many of those reports have actually been made / handled, but isn't it a bit soon to shoot it down entirely?

Apologies if this isn’t the case but I fear you don’t understand the magnitude of the task needed to wade through daily submitted logs. It’s not about shooting it down before it’s started, it’s about pointing out an obvious flaw in the proposed system in the same way I would if I saw someone get on a bike with no wheels.

[thmsrox 14]

Apologies if this isn’t the case but I fear you don’t understand the magnitude of the task needed to wade through daily submitted logs. It’s not about shooting it down before it’s started, it’s about pointing out an obvious flaw in the proposed system in the same way I would if I saw someone get on a bike with no wheels.

Not saying it's nothing, but 10 people could be reading through those, 10 monkeys could be reading through those, or they have software to read through those for all we know. I would assume they had a pretty good idea of what would happen when introducing it to admins? Let's also assume they can handle it until stated otherwise.

I'm not here to tell you all what to do, I would say I couldn't care less but that's not true. I think it would be a shame to see servers get blacklisted, while the people making points against me here are obviously dedicated admins and do give a shit about this game and I respect your efforts.

[{sas}stalker 108]

One of the issues is actually uploading them. Our server will generate a log file (daily) in the region of 350 - 400 meg. Times that by even a fraction of the number of servers out there and you can see the problem instantly. Its approximately 100gig of logs per 250 servers. There are 3000 servers so they could be staring down 1.2 terabytes of logs daily / 37.2 terabytes a month.

Thats a lot of hard drives needed, never mind transit

[Reo 26]

I don't know why this is such a big deal. There are two options:

1.) Restrict admins = losing a 40/50-Slot server sooner or later (in general the server population will decrease dramatically in the next 3-6months)

2.) Some crying kids due to a ban. After 5 minutes of whine they will just look for another server and think twice whether they disconnect in a fight again.

Abusive admins? I don't fucking care. It's my task on my server to provide a stable, fair platform. At the moment (with all that restrictions) I cannot provide this, therefore it's time for a change. How other admins treat their players is up to the themselves.

I will probably start banning hoppers/disco-guys soon (even without proof), in the hope to get my community mates back (no mates, no fun at all - main reason for renting a server). If they want to blacklist my server they can do it. DayZ staff loses "testing ground", I save money. win-win.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Reo

[thmsrox 14]

Don't you only need to send down the logs for a specific day on a specific case? My bad if I'm wrong about this.

[thmsrox 14]

I will probably start banning hoppers/disco-guys soon (even without proof), in the hope to get my community mates back (no mates, no fun at all - main reason for renting a server). If they want to blacklist my server they can do it. DayZ staff loses "testing ground", I save money. win-win.

Your friends left your server for another 'cause you didn't ban hoppers?

[irishvillain 0]

Disconnecting during PVP is ruining the game and is now rampant on both the servers I admin. Logging a ticket each time this is reported will cause a huge number of tickets and work. I've started to crack down on it with banning people where I am CERTAIN it happens i.e. witnessed by myself or by people I trust to tell me the truth. It needs to addressed by the Dev's but I think if all Servers cracked down on it for a week or two it would help a lot.

[jskibo 143]

Don't you only need to send down the logs for a specific day on a specific case? My bad if I'm wrong about this.

I have no way to parse the logs or separate the days in the logs as HFB locked my ability to do anything but download the whole log file, now 500MB and growing in 3 days. I can't even delete and start over like another less restrictive hosting company I use as well.

Ever try to open a 1GB or more text file?

I also can't add things to watch for in my sript detect file that is used to log suspect activity as that file is download only (Really? WTF good is it to just D/L that file, f'in dumbass hosting companies). So any new development by the script kiddies can't be logged and dealt with......

Edited July 18, 2012 by jskibo

[East 8]

Everyone should host a DayZ server for a week and then see if their opinions change. Mine sure did...

[{sas}stalker 108]

Don't you only need to send down the logs for a specific day on a specific case? My bad if I'm wrong about this.

Yes but there are multiple instances of it daily. Should we send the entire log with each case? That would just amplify the issue 10 fold. If you were going to be vigilant (and indeed an arse about it) and send them every questionable instance and occurrence then you could quite easily generate 20 – 50 support tickets daily and attach a 300meg log file to each ticket.

[Adron 42]

Well that does it.

The fucking shit that come out of your mouth and onto the screen smells worse than a homeless guy that just crawled out of a septic tank Ander.

I've submitted 8 tickets on people I observed disconnecting to avoid death with fraps and log proof. A week later? All 8 were still playing on my server last night. So I banned them yesterday. All 8 of those shitbags. Not one complaint. And you know what? My server is better for it and I don't care what anyone else thinks about it.

I'm going to continue ip and GUID banning people I see exploiting. I'll continue enforcing rules on my server and it is in my motd that I will ban and they can email me any complaints.

I'm not abusive and I'm not doing anything that harms the game. My efforts, if anything, encourage people to keep playing. You won't blacklist my server because if you do you will have to blacklist 100s of servers for the same thing. You can't afford to do it and you don't have the time to do it. Just like you don't have the time to go through 400meg log files and ban only 8 people I sent to you.

So to any server admin that's on the fence? Just do it. Better to ask forgiveness than permission from a Dev team that isnt doing shit to fix a real problem that 90% of the community supports an Admin based solution to.

[Warned - Ubi]

Edited July 18, 2012 by UbiquitousBadGuy

[Reo 26]

Your friends left your server for another 'cause you didn't ban hoppers?

Correct, because PvP has become ridiculous. You fight, people log off, (respawn behind, kill you). In the beginning we were 30 people at peak, now 5-7! Says all...

And as mentioned before the "log ticket"-support is a fairy tale. If you believe that someone will take time to check terabytes of log...better stop here...

[BobJoeXXI 28]

Apologies if this isn’t the case but I fear you don’t understand the magnitude of the task needed to wade through daily submitted logs. It’s not about shooting it down before it’s started, it’s about pointing out an obvious flaw in the proposed system in the same way I would if I saw someone get on a bike with no wheels.

I want to point this out first....

I know exactly what free reign admins are capable of and that thread in the link above proves it. If there is no clearcut evidence on either parties side, the abusive admins still win. They ban the victim due to their own ambitious personal reasons and get a slap on the wrist. The banned victim ends up having to relocate to a new server, cheated out of their well earned spoils of victory. Admins can claim "he/she D/C'd during the fight." In the above link's case, Stalker abused Omega's concern about announcing his ingame name on the forums and claimed Omega was never on the server.

The logs will not prove a thing about D/C. A well organized group can raid the admins camp, kill all the inhabitants and then proceed to get falsely banned for D/C; and the logs cannot prove anything. For all we know, the admin just waited until they disconnected and banned shortly afterwards.

This is why admins shouldn't ban for D/C. Banning for hacking (video helps), sure; D/C, no. Unless there is video evidence it should not be allowed.