Agree or Disagree? Why we kill...

[Electrolyte 4]

It's funny how you seem to equate "hardcore" and "quicker gratification". Surely they are opposed concepts? Those deathmatch games are terribly casual, not hardcore. You can join and leave at any minute, death means nothing and you always respawn instantly. You can't get more casual than that.

Those games offer fun, but no adrenaline rush. While after a firefight in DayZ you walk away from the computer with your heart racing. It more than makes up for the rarity of those firefights.

They are certainly not opposed, apples and oranges situation I'm afraid. I'm stating that the adrenaline highs of DayZ DM can be experienced much more often and with greater satisfaction in other polished DM shooters, hence making DayZ into a bloated DM mod is pointless and people will move on. I love mods, have thoroughly enjoyed the phenomenon of DayZ, and will be sad if it collapses as quickly as it came about because it turned in to a proudly unbalanced hardcore military deathmatch. I doubt that will happen though - the active users on the forum seem to welcome DM from most of what I've read, but forums typically represent a small percentage of the total players.

To your second point, death means nothing in DayZ based on its current mechanics (version 1.7.2). You can join and leave at any minute, deaths mean nothing, and you always respawn instantly (almost instantly, you have to micro the UI minigame a bit).

And do you honestly consider pro Quake players casual?

I used to get pumped about DayZ firefights, but they end faster than most alpha bugs can kill you. The bugs are far scarier frankly, I got whacked by the same bug three times today. So it goes.

[Whattteva 32]

Oh, I agree. But much of that will go away when/if server hopping and DCing gets "fixed". There's very few spots where you can do that and get regular kills without server hopping until you see zombies. They are well known, and relatively easy to scout from a distance. The others require a metric ton of patience, which in a way is a skill.

I'm not sure how hard/easy it is to implement. But another game I played solved this DCing problem with a simple logout timer. The logout timer also resets to its starting amount each and everytime you take damage, so you are forced to pretty much only logout when it's safe. It also solved the alt-f4 problem by pretty much automating that logout timer whenever the client stops responding. So yes, your client is no longer active, but your character stays there until the timer is done. So, people that try to do that will log back in to a dead character.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Whattteva

[klittcommander@yahoo.de 0]

[Overall]

• Better he then me! I think this could be the background of every kill.: OKAY!
  

So what does it Matter why ppl. kill other ppl ingame? is this realy worth to diskuss which kills are ok and which not? It's WAR out there and DayZ Simulates this. So you better kill everyone (except your clan mates) no matter why!

[Whattteva 32]

They are certainly not opposed, apples and oranges situation I'm afraid. I'm stating that the adrenaline highs of DayZ DM can be experienced much more often and with greater satisfaction in other polished DM shooters, hence making DayZ into a bloated DM mod is pointless and people will move on.

I guess I can relate to this. Especially when your kill is that same douche that killed you 3-4 times in a row, lol (nemesis kill ftw!).

[EnermaX 59]

Where is this coward with his sniper vid...

+1 Excellent Topic.

[species5021 28]

I agree a great topic, especially after reading trough all the reply's.

Im not sure why i kill, i tend to walk with friends, most times im duo with my brother, other times were trio with one of my friends. So that basically means we do not need any more help or assistance from people. So that makes other players just a potential threat to our lives and equipment, and so far i have not seen any reason NOT to fear other players as pretty much all of them have shot on sight. So these days we go into elaborate tactics to make sure we spot them first, or when we go into a large building with enough hiding spots we leave a sniper on the hill.

I must admit we have shot at other duos walking around airfields that were clearly friendly, and although this saddens me sometimes this game does not leave a lot of room for emotion. Its kill or be killed. Being friendly is left behind on the coast...

[Jack Dant 158]

To your second point, death means nothing in DayZ based on its current mechanics (version 1.7.2). You can join and leave at any minute, deaths mean nothing, and you always respawn instantly (almost instantly, you have to micro the UI minigame a bit).

You respawn without your gear, which depending on your personal style, can take anything from 15 minutes to several hours/days to collect. I guess if all you do is play lee-enfield wars in cherno/elektro, death means very little to you. For everything else, it does matter.

And do you honestly consider pro Quake players casual?

The game itself is casual. Yes, you can go pro and then it becomes non-casual for you. There are also rock/paper/scissors championships and, I presume, pro-players. That doesn't make it into a hardcore game :)

[Electrolyte 4]

You respawn without your gear, which depending on your personal style, can take anything from 15 minutes to several hours/days to collect. I guess if all you do is play lee-enfield wars in cherno/elektro, death means very little to you. For everything else, it does matter.

The game itself is casual. Yes, you can go pro and then it becomes non-casual for you. There are also rock/paper/scissors championships and, I presume, pro-players. That doesn't make it into a hardcore game :)

I see far more DMR's and Kobras in Cherno/Elektro than Enfields or Winchesters. Maybe low tier weapons are more common on low pop servers?

I can get to my camp in 15-30 minutes and have most of what I need to kill someone if that's the name of the game, that's 15-30 minutes of bloat to get the same result as running into Cherno/Elektro with a hatchet. Hell you don't even need a hatchet, just get a train going and run to the med tents or hospital. Someone will take the aggro off of you whether they meant to or not (works best against groups).

And for your healthy serving of troll I only ask that you please refrain from telling Quake/CS/etc pros they are playing casual games to their faces. I'd hate for you to enter a Dayz situation of your own!

[gizm0 96]

[Overall]

• Better he then me! I think this could be the background of every kill.: OKAY!
  

So what does it Matter why ppl. kill other ppl ingame? is this realy worth to diskuss which kills are ok and which not? It's WAR out there and DayZ Simulates this. So you better kill everyone (except your clan mates) no matter why!

But is it wrong to learn why and what really motivates other players to killing?

[klittcommander@yahoo.de 0]

But is it wrong to learn why and what really motivates other players to killing?

If you got a bullet in your head, i think it doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that matters is who kills first ;).

Shure for your surviabilities it could be Useful to know that Player kill for gear, then you better don't raid an Airfield without cover. If we take it seriously it would matter, but there are so many reasons to kill that it make no difference, the only thing you have to know is that you are not save in Chernau, wherever you are!

I think would this scenario be real the most ppl. only would Kill for: Religions (some kind of new Zombiereligions), Food, Sex with your girlfirend, weapons and Vehicles.

Srry for my sometimes Bad English, its not my first language, so if you find any faults, or sometimes the meanin of my words are not clear because it's wrong... then nvm... its just another opinion.

[Jack Dant 158]

And for your healthy serving of troll I only ask that you please refrain from telling Quake/CS/etc pros they are playing casual games to their faces. I'd hate for you to enter a Dayz situation of your own!

It's funny how the gamers who oppose senseless violence in video games, are always the first to threaten real life violence when their e-peen or their pixels get hurt.

[vjese 20]

Aaah, a topic filled with people who can't aim and got mad cause they lost they're makarov.

Get reall, this is dayz this is OUR story. can do what we want. Next thing your gonna bitch like those MMo scrubs that u want a pve only server cause u cant stand the bandits.

Trying to bring morals into a game thats about survival is plain stupid surviving means do whatever it takes. and who are you to judge what someone else finds survival.

I kill anyone on sight and will try to loot them for food, and ammo. do i get a thrill out of hunting people? sure, do i do it for surviving, Yes. do i like my high murder count? Yes.

Plus you kinda brought it to yourself at the point where everyone shoots everyone, im not saying you specificly cause the people in this threat probably are just the baddies who only die. but u can't get passed anymore with being friendly and afterwards getting shot in the head.

Also if u ask me, if everyone was friendly right now, with zombies being so easy to kill, where's the challenges, run into a town agro all the mobs run into a house, throw a grenade. free loot.

bandits/threat lurking under each tree adds paranoia to me, a sence of adrenaline i've never felt in any game, it makes my will to survive even stronger, and walking aroun d with a giant gun and not using it onec in a while feels a waste of inventory space, so target practice that dumb survivor sitting in the middle of the field trying to find a boar doesnt even make me feel guiilty.

18 days 23 minutes alive. 271 zombies killed 22 murders 8 bandits killed.

[klittcommander@yahoo.de 0]

Aaah, a topic filled with people who can't aim and got mad cause they lost they're makarov.

Get reall, this is dayz this is OUR story. can do what we want. Next thing your gonna bitch like those MMo scrubs that u want a pve only server cause u cant stand the bandits.

Trying to bring morals into a game thats about survival is plain stupid surviving means do whatever it takes. and who are you to judge what someone else finds survival.

I kill anyone on sight and will try to loot them for food, and ammo. do i get a thrill out of hunting people? sure, do i do it for surviving, Yes. do i like my high murder count? Yes.

Plus you kinda brought it to yourself at the point where everyone shoots everyone, im not saying you specificly cause the people in this threat probably are just the baddies who only die. but u can't get passed anymore with being friendly and afterwards getting shot in the head.

Also if u ask me, if everyone was friendly right now, with zombies being so easy to kill, where's the challenges, run into a town agro all the mobs run into a house, throw a grenade. free loot.

bandits/threat lurking under each tree adds paranoia to me, a sence of adrenaline i've never felt in any game, it makes my will to survive even stronger, and walking aroun d with a giant gun and not using it onec in a while feels a waste of inventory space, so target practice that dumb survivor sitting in the middle of the field trying to find a boar doesnt even make me feel guiilty.

18 days 23 minutes alive. 271 zombies killed 22 murders 8 bandits killed.

You talk my thought! Mimimi in MMO ok... Mimimi in DayZ No thy!

[CivilHard0ut 0]

Depends on my gear i have. You fire at me first and i will surely return the fire back at you. Also depends if i have a friend with me, Then i feel as if no action should be taken on a single player as we are more intimidating together and will hopefully turn people off shooting at us.

[Timberwolf (DayZ) 118]

This is a good list provided you understand that all of these evaluations are completely subjective. Your personal estimation of what is "OKAY!" compared to what indicates that I am mentally dysfunctional is just that. You are welcome to your deliniations and classifications, but they are in no way aligned with the "intent" of the mod or the designer.

You say "Not really the point of this particular mod..." with no basis for that statement. Your estimation of what that point is simply a combination of preconceived notions and existing desires on your part.

I assume you must have some problems in living in society in real life since it's pillars are made of rules and laws created by other people as a standard and you must live by them or else you suffer the consequences. For a pedophile or a psychopath their actions are okay but that doesn't mean they are correct with such an assumption or that they don't have a mental problem.

If I, for instance, decided to make my DayZ a racing game by using vehicles and making players race each other trough designated tracks would this make DayZ a racing game indeed? The fact that you can do it doesn't mean it is meant to be done.

Name one shooter with 1) persistence 2) permadeath 3) a 225km2 map 4) realist guns and gun damage.

Regular ARMA 2.

[Wessie4life 3]

Killing another player because:

[sURVIVAL]

• I'm dying due to lack of food/water/medicine/etc and they might have some: OKAY!
  
• They have something and I want it!: OKAY!
  
• They have a weapon, and/or I generally feel like they are a threat to me: OKAY!
  
• I'm trying to hide from zombies/players and this person may reveal my location to undesirables: OKAY!
  

I pressume the other player has something I want, the reality is they have useless crap on them and I then become a griefer in the eyes of others..

[gizm0 96]

If you got a bullet in your head, i think it doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that matters is who kills first ;).

Shure for your surviabilities it could be Useful to know that Player kill for gear, then you better don't raid an Airfield without cover. If we take it seriously it would matter, but there are so many reasons to kill that it make no difference, the only thing you have to know is that you are not save in Chernau, wherever you are!

I think would this scenario be real the most ppl. only would Kill for: Religions (some kind of new Zombiereligions), Food, Sex with your girlfirend, weapons and Vehicles.

Srry for my sometimes Bad English, its not my first language, so if you find any faults, or sometimes the meanin of my words are not clear because it's wrong... then nvm... its just another opinion.

Well I'm just saying from a testing and design view point, its always good to know what players think and feel while they play and even what points they just say fuck it and stop playing, as well as the subtle reasons that cause them to give up, or why they can't give up.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Orthus

[Jack Dant 158]

Name one shooter with 1) persistence 2) permadeath 3) a 225km2 map 4) realist guns and gun damage

Regular ARMA 2.

Sorry? Please explain how regular arma 2 has persistence and permadeath, because it has neither.

Edited to add:

If I, for instance, decided to make my DayZ a racing game by using vehicles and making players race each other trough designated tracks would this make DayZ a racing game indeed? The fact that you can do it doesn't mean it is meant to be done.

You really don't get what a sandbox game is, do you? A sandbox game is not "meant" to be played in any particular way. I, for one, would applaud your DayZ racing initiative as an excellent example of the sandbox at work. Then I would show up to it with a grenade launcher to spice things a bit.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Jack Dant

[Xbgmegatron 4]

U learned my lesson Now its kill or be killed

[bbilbo1 149]

You really don't get what a sandbox game is, do you? A sandbox game is not "meant" to be played in any particular way. I, for one, would applaud your DayZ racing initiative as an excellent example of the sandbox at work. Then I would show up to it with a grenade launcher to spice things a bit.

If I may contribute... I, personally, have played many Sandbox games. My first was Ultima Online in the late 90's, and that's just one game in a list. I'm very familiar with the open-world, do-what-you-want-when-you-want, freedom of such genre of game.

And while the developers generally try to step back and let player sort out their problems themselves, there are definitely situations where staff have had to directly intervene in cases where gameplay degrades:

• Hacking,
  
• Exploiting,
  
• Unbalance
  
• General re-evaluation of what is "fun" or "within the accepted scope of the game"
  

For instance, if the gameplay community discovered that one feature was significantly more advantageous, resulting in a massive shift of player focus to only one aspect of gameplay (gee, does that sound familiar?), the developers would investigate and come up with a plan to tweak the game to be a bit more balanced. Hopefully without breaking anything else.

So in a nutshell: Regardless of sandbox or not, sometimes fixes need to happen so that all the players aren't overcrowding the same corner of said proverbial sandbox.

[Gruelius 16]

100% agree.

except ill do target practise when ive got the jump on someone >300m away and im not going anywhere.. :D

Also sometimes ill just scare players for no reason e.g. (winchester shots from 500m away hitting shop glass to make them shit themselves)

but 300m away and look in my direction with something decent and ill run for cover and take shots.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Gruelius

[OPBullets 1]

I also agree 100%, I kill other players because for my first "10 lives" in this game, I yelled friendly, even when I didn't have a weapon and I was killed.

So I kill players as they are a real threat to me.

[Jack Dant 158]

For instance, if the gameplay community discovered that one feature was significantly more advantageous, resulting in a massive shift of player focus to only one aspect of gameplay (gee, does that sound familiar?), the developers would investigate and come up with a plan to tweak the game to be a bit more balanced. Hopefully without breaking anything else.

So in a nutshell: Regardless of sandbox or not, sometimes fixes need to happen so that all the players aren't overcrowding the same corner of said proverbial sandbox.

Oh, absolutely. I've been an EVE Online player for quite a few years and I'm familiar with the need to rebalance things from time to time.

But I don't think the problem is what you think it is. The PVP in DayZ is very enjoyable and probably one of its strong points. Any sort of discouraging/punishment of what you perceive as pointless PVP, is only going to hurt an important facet of the game.

Now, what the game is missing, is conflict drivers for the geared up players.

Once you reach a certain point in your ingame life, you have the tools you need to survive forever in the forest. You have your favorite PVP gun, and a pack full of stuff for "emergencies". Now what's left? What reason would you have to PVP except the thrill of it? That's what we are seeing.

The only thing filling in as a conflict driver right now are vehicles. And let me tell you, the vehicle ambushes I've been involved in have been awesome. But then, if the vehicle even survives the fight (and I'm at a 33% survival rate myself), what did you win? They are not really that useful, and having multiple vehicles is usually a waste.

TL;DR: It's not that people are killing each other for the wrong reasons, it's that there's no right reason to kill each other once you reach a certain point. But killing each other is fun, so we do it anyway.

[gizm0 96]

Oh, absolutely. I've been an EVE Online player for quite a few years and I'm familiar with the need to rebalance things from time to time.

But I don't think the problem is what you think it is. The PVP in DayZ is very enjoyable and probably one of its strong points. Any sort of discouraging/punishment of what you perceive as pointless PVP, is only going to hurt an important facet of the game.

Now, what the game is missing, is conflict drivers for the geared up players.

Once you reach a certain point in your ingame life, you have the tools you need to survive forever in the forest. You have your favorite PVP gun, and a pack full of stuff for "emergencies". Now what's left? What reason would you have to PVP except the thrill of it? That's what we are seeing.

The only thing filling in as a conflict driver right now are vehicles. And let me tell you, the vehicle ambushes I've been involved in have been awesome. But then, if the vehicle even survives the fight (and I'm at a 33% survival rate myself), what did you win? They are not really that useful, and having multiple vehicles is usually a waste.

TL;DR: It's not that people are killing each other for the wrong reasons, it's that there's no right reason to kill each other once you reach a certain point. But killing each other is fun, so we do it anyway.

pretty much no other feature or content is as finished as the PVP.

[Electrolyte 4]

It's funny how the gamers who oppose senseless violence in video games, are always the first to threaten real life violence when their e-peen or their pixels get hurt.

You sir, are quite the master chef of troll. Hardcore games don't exist, but you'll argue what makes a game hardcore. When your definition starts looking a little shaky, cook up some piping hot troll. When the troll isn't being happily devoured, defer to general social commentary based on self-serving assumptions. Well played, but please do have the last word in our discussion.

Troll me once, shame on you. Troll me twice, shame on me. Enjoy your casual games!