Replacing Humanity with Morality

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

*edit* far simpler and better ideas in the posts below, this was just brainstorming. */edit*

- longass post, hear me out -

I've been thinking a lot about this. The idea of 'rewarding' breaks the game concept, and guides people to act towards receiving said reward. Makes it linear. I believe the current Humanity system does this. We get rewarded by PMC clothes that then allow us to do some nasty stuff, until we're back in the bandit camo (and for most part, perpetually stuck in bandit camo) There is no right or wrong in the zombie world, only our morality.

I think it would be interesting to have 'Humanity' as a choice prior to spawning, and 'Morality' being associated with your actions after this.

Quite simply if your actions do not match your morality, your character begins to suffer. If your actions compliment your morality, you remain stable. If you were to enter the zombiepocalypse with the intention of helping others and fighting bandits; marching up to a group of helpless old ladies and capping them in the face would severely impact you. It would mess with most of us, and then there are those that would enjoy it.

The thing I love about DayZ at the moment is that it DOES have that morality effect on me personally, but it doesn't effect my character ingame so much. I get happy when I save a stranger, and I feel like a horrible douche when I shoot someone on the shoreline. Others get their jollies from the exact opposite, which is why we should apply our morality to the character and not be defined by the games definition of 'humanity'

So how would this work in game? I think it could be implemented in this manner:

Choose your humanity

BLUFOR, OPFOR and Insurgents could be sides we choose. Corresponding to a PMC, Bandits, and Survivors. No restrictions on team numbers, friendly fire etc., it should only be related to the following mechanics below. (point being if there are a lot of Bandits, you may be compelled to join PMC to make regaining morality easier.)

Adhere to your morality. 'Morality' would be what 'Humanity' is at the moment, a measure of your actions (and their consistency) that will effect your mental state.

- PMC regain a large amount of morality by killing Bandits, regain a small amount by helping/healing survivors and other PMC. Lose morality by killing Survivors and PMC.

- Bandits regain a large amount of morality by killing PMC, and a small amount from killing Survivors and other Bandits. Their morality is in a constant state of decay, they must continuously murder to validate their prior actions.

- Survivors regain a large amount by killing zombies, and a small amount by helping/healing other survivors. Lose morality by killing Survivors, PMC and Bandits.

Morality/Mental System

If the actions are inconsistent with the players morality, then the character should start to suffer mentally as they head towards nervous breakdown. Much like being in pain at the moment. I would envision it represented how hunger/thirst/injury are, with a downhill slide into losing one's shit. Basically a mix of vision blur, grunting, shakiness, etc. that gradually gets worse.

This also opens the opportunity for Medication/Alcohol to be implemented and draw the ire of christian lobby groups :angel:

At it's core the idea is quite simple. It gives us choice, and a rough guide of 'how' we should act.. but we're not constrained by it.

[James (DayZ) 1]

I gotta say, I love this idea. When I first saw the post, I figured it was just a basic name change; what I wasn't expecting was the depth you went into of all the features that would be added in along with it. I love the "simple complexity" that would be added with this change, for lack of a better phrase :P

The idea that my actions don't just effect the way I look but the way my character acts and reacts is actually pretty incredible. I think this feature would actually create a feel that every life is a new story.

Great idea Goldstein! :D

[red62 9]

would take away from the sandbox feel of the game though

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

To be honest the idea came to me slighty due to Project Zomboid. I like how the mental state of your character deterioriates, to the point of hallucination etc.

I think it's that missing element which reduces DayZ to deathmatch a lot, because our characters are completely without any human element. (good or evil) We don't connect to them much, hence don't care who they kill or if they get killed.

We are actually worse than the zombies. They look after their own kind!

This system encourages factionalism (which I think would likely occur) yet in no way stops you from being a lone wolf.

There is always the chance to shoot a friendly for his stuff, then work on righting your moral compass.

It's just food for thought. The current humanity system is too black and white.

[dallas 5195]

I believe humanity covers the struggle Survivors are faced with best.

For me morality is something connected to societies or communities and in Post-Chernarus society has ceased to exist. Even the best of persons has to struggle with his own humanity in a desperate attempt to survive. If you're a good natured person, you can be forced to destroy another human being to protect your companions or the belongings you absolutely require to survive.

You can come face to face with another survivor in a looted store, both needing the leftovers to survive, none of you having the moral right to the last can of beans, but someone will either have to give in or the situation could escalate to the lose of life.

I think alot of players have experienced some regret killing other survivors. A sadness about being fueled by selfinterest or survival to destroy another player's character progression. I don't think you need to make an ingame feature for all of these psychological experiences, some of them arises natural from the circumstances and situations the players are put in.

The cool thing about the humanity system is even Survivors can find themselves hunted as Bandits, if they are too quick to chose their own survival over human kind's.

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

There are two situations where the current humanity system really fails (and I can't see any forseeable way to overcome with the current system)

A) n00b saibot spawns, goes incredibly trigger happy on anything that moves. He loses a bit of humanity, whilst I'm forced to benny-hill headless chicken run around him like an idiot. No real self-defense without humanity loss, when really you should gain some for firing back on them.

b) Survivor & Bandit brolationship. I have no qualms about offing the bandit, but his survivor friend is another thing altogether. Ideally I'd kill him too because he's milking the safety of his bandit friends ability to kill anyone, and is essentially an accessory. But that too makes me evil.

Maybe playing vigilante is just as evil as being a bandit, it is taking the law into your own hands afterall.

[dallas 5195]

"If you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you."

Not evil, just inhumane. You've gone from killing in selfdefense, to killing bandits and people associated with bandits. Soon you'll be killing for beans.

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

I eagerly await the day.. until my characters sins are washed away upon death. I'd rather have the choice to become a bandit, than to be stuck as one at the moment.

Perhaps that is the answer. We all spawn neutral/civilian, then our actions determine our characters look over their lifespan. When they die, that life is gone with them.

That's about as simple as it gets. None of the EVE Online spawning from the cloning vatts with our past misdeeds associated with our appearance.

[vivalarazala 1]

I rather just stick to the game as is. Just remove humanity and make them all look the same. In real life when people do murder they dont get labeled as a bandit!

Maybe some kind of threat system instead? or just go with gut feeling and remove humanity. dont add anything for it. It just makes it more realistic and might give us more feel for the game cause we wont know who to trust or who to shoot.

[dallas 5195]

Murderers however get labeled as murderers in real life.

The same way a bandit's actions can set another player's progression several hours back, I feel restoring negative humanity should cost time too. Resetting negative humanity by simply clicking respawn grants Bandits total immunity.

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

Murderers however get labeled as murderers in real life.

The same way a bandit's actions can set another player's progression several hours back' date=' I feel restoring negative humanity should cost time too. Resetting negative humanity by simply clicking respawn grants Bandits total immunity.

[/quote']

That's quite interesting, and as I was hovering my mouse pointer over the 'reputation' button I had a realisation..

That's what it should be about.. reputation. It's what we have IRL, and it's what is defined by our actions.

e.g. rocket has +136, that doesn't necessarily make him a nice guy. But it's a good indication he does good things. (but also likes tears)

Captain Trollsworth has -36, that doesn't necessarily make him evil. Just notorious.

In a system where we could choose our appearance, you have to make the decision where their morality lies based on how they view themselves, and how the game world views them.

Is Captain Trollsworth wearing PMC gear because he's trying to build up his reputation? or is he just luring people into safety and executing them?

You decide! *turn to page 58 if you want to shoot captain trollsworth in the knees with an m24*

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

I really like the thought that went into this so +1. This could be better than the humanity system anf I would be happy to playtest it if it got into a subsequent release. However, personally I think the most authentic route is the whole being able to change your clothes if you find a change of clothes, but not being forced into looking a particular way based on your actions (or by choice when you start a new life). I do like the whole idea of it messing with your head (as a game effect) if you murder someone and it goes against your pre-determined morality however.

Nice work...