state of shock damage and "uncon meta"

[Buakaw 274]

its as bit unbalanced right now.

I dont think a single mosi/win bullet should knock out plate carrier instanly. It means certain death anyway in almost any scenario you can think of except when you are running with 3 more guys who can cover you while unconscious.

Same with 556 vs plate carrier. 2 bullets should not knock you unconscious at 300 meters.

So either the plate carrier and press vest should receive more shock absorption or the bullets should receive lower shock damage.

Given how "arcade-y" gunplay is right now, that is, how easy it is to control assault rifles and spray and tap them at range, it just seems a bit out of tune.

You are giving up a massive 12kg worth of stamina to have better protection against bullets too, so it makes even less sense.

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Buakaw

[Officer Failure 33]

I rather say keep the damage(shock/health) but change the so said "arcade-y" gunplay - especially long range shots are way too easy.

But I wouldn't mind a slight buff for vests in terms of shock absorption.

[General Zod 1118]

That 7,62x54r round carries so much kinetic energy that even if the plate caught it it would break your ribs and cause pulmonary oedema. Which means even if you had someone to cover you and get you to safety you'd require serious medical attention and definitely not be able to walk or run for at least few days. Being unconscious for few seconds then waking up to full combat effectiveness if the second shot doesn't come is getting of easy. Your character should dragging itself around grunting in pain for days after being shot like this. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by General Zod

[DefectiveWater 536]

31 minutes ago, Officer Failure said:

I rather say keep the damage(shock/health) but change the so said "arcade-y" gunplay

Agreed, I think this would make a bigger change to the gameplay than making snipers essentially useless.

5 hours ago, Buakaw said:

I dont think a single mosi/win bullet should knock out plate carrier instanly.

But what's the point of having a bolt action sniper rifle if the target can just walk away after being shot?

Maybe if there was an additional mechanic, not uncon but still forced to drop down on the ground (i'll call it dropped for the sake of it, and player can't get up immediately)?
They could make it so like there are 2 different threshold shock values. Lower value (65) = dropped, higher (80) = uncon.

Character does the full uncon animation with a gun in his hand. After a second or so after falling on the ground your character could get into this pose:

If something like this is implemented uncon range of weapons could be reduced, but the dropped mechanic could compensate for the lost uncon range.
You are still a sitting duck in the open if you get shot but at least it's not an instant black screen.

If necessary, they could also increase the uncon duration to make it last longer due to uncon range reduction.

5 hours ago, Buakaw said:

Same with 556 vs plate carrier. 2 bullets should not knock you unconscious at 300 meters.

Agreed about that, 300 is a bit much.

But even if my idea isn't implemented, I still think that there should be something between uncon and zig zagging like a mad man after getting shot.

[Buakaw 274]

4 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Maybe if there was an additional mechanic, not uncon but still forced to drop down on the ground (i'll call it dropped for the sake of it, and player can't get up immediately)?
They could make it so like there are 2 different threshold shock values. Lower value (65) = dropped, higher (80) = uncon. 

3 shots of an m4 leave you with blinking health, severely limping and barely being able to move. and 4 shots just straight up kill you up to 120 meters.

I think the low health limping after 3 rounds is severe enough, but because you get knocked out so easily by 2 shots and most people just finish the job right there, the protection might as well be 2 shots. thats why I think plates need higher shock absorption for sure.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Buakaw

[Officer Failure 33]

Shock and health stat are quite good balanced - but a oneshotuncon while wearing plate carrier (7,62x54r) situation shows where it's stressed out. Changing to not going uncon would leave you with almost no consequences. We need something in between.

On 6/3/2022 at 11:56 AM, DefectiveWater said:

Maybe if there was an additional mechanic, not uncon but still forced to drop down on the ground (i'll call it dropped for the sake of it, and player can't get up immediately)?

 

The dropping mechanic might be a start i would rather put something like that in a new damage related stat. I call it the pain stat.

And it should be spitted to the body parts. So pain values separate for right leg, left leg, right hand, left hand, body and head. Shown with an icon with four stages separate for all parts- white, light red (litle or no consequences), red (some consequences) and  flashing red (high consequences). 

With those values for the pain of the body parts you could add stuff like limp (feet), falling in pain without uncon (body) or only able to use sidearms(hands). And with recovering times from flashing red to white in 3-5mins. And ofc setting the needed shock stat for going uncon a tad higher then.

Examples

You get shot in the chest by mosin while wearing a plate carrier:

Pain icon shows chest flashing red - Knocking down pain scream, unable to get up for example 10 sec, no uncon but high shock, moving speed limited like with flashing red heath (even if heath is still higher), increased sway, additional chest

damage (even little) leads to uncon
After one minute pain chest icon gets to red - frequent grunt, moving speed limited like when you have yellow health, codeine helps.
After additional two minutes pain body turns light red - no consequences from body pain value

This isn't exactly this:

On 6/3/2022 at 10:49 AM, General Zod said:

That 7,62x54r round carries so much kinetic energy that even if the plate caught it it would break your ribs and cause pulmonary oedema. Which means even if you had someone to cover you and get you to safety you'd require serious medical attention and definitely not be able to walk or run for at least few days.

 

but somewhat inbetween

Another example: Getting two mosin shots in the left leg  

Pain icon shows lelt leg flashing red - Knocking down pain scream,  moving speed limited like with flashing red heath (even if heath wherever) best with limping animation, sprinting inflicts shock damage, frequent grunt, increased sway, more left feet damage cause leg break (this should replace the shock damage leg break)
After one minute left leg  value gets to red - frequent grunt, moving speed limited like when you have yellow health, limping, jumping or climbing causes shock damage

...and so on, you get the basic idea, all of this are just example figures. But with a pain stat you could do a lot of stuff.

[Buakaw 274]

@Officer Failure we already have the limping mechanic from low health, isnt that sufficient?

 

[Officer Failure 33]

When you get shot by a mosin while wearing a plate carrier (100m) you get

90 shock damage (75 to fall uncon) - you fall uncon

41,31 health damage - so you're on yellow heath and suffer just little movement speed but after a short period of time your health will get 3/4 and then you suffer no movement speed restrictions.

(all figuers from wobos damage drop off tool - it's great)

With my pain mechanik you would - fall, being immobile 10sec,  moving speed limited like with flashing red heath - and that for one minute. After this minute, the restrictions from the yellow health would be the same.

This mechanik should bring in the pain aspect - which should hit harder than the health restrictions but for a shorter period of time.

 

Edit: I couldn't find exact health damage values for leg shots but as far as I remember, it's half or even less compared to chest shots wearing a plate carrier. So with a pain stat for the leg you can reduce movent speed even if you loose litlte health from leg shots. So basically limping from getting shot in the leg.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Officer Failure

[Buakaw 274]

3 hours ago, Officer Failure said:

With my pain mechanik you would - fall, being immobile 10sec,  moving speed limited like with flashing red heath - and that for one minute

people will just finish you off with a second bullet whether you instantly go uncon or become immobile with some wierd new mechanic.

whats the point? thats exactly what I dont like about the current shock damage.

 

[Officer Failure 33]

The current shock damage problematic and seems like a makeshift. On a deathmatch server it's like you're shooting sleeping pills (at least for those vest protected). Imagine movies would behave like that.

But just lifting the uncon barrier higher would lead into superunnatural behavior since - staying in the mosin/plate situation- you would be in yellow health and could just run away. Yes you run a little slower on yellow health but not much. I mean, there must be something when you're shot at (knockback for every round didn't work either but yes 7,62x54r still has it). Just lowering the max running speed on yellow health would be unbearable for non fighting situation.
 
With my mechanic you can lift the uncon barrier higher and hear the shot, fight back (on the ground), pull a grenade, scream in the mic. You can do something and you know at least what hit you. But yes maybe falling is too much but stuff like this must be tested a lot if ever implemented anyways -right now it's just in my head. With complexity comes possibility imo.

Long range shots are a separate problematic, I wrote my 2 Cents about it here

Edited June 6, 2022 by Officer Failure

[Buakaw 274]

On 6/6/2022 at 3:10 AM, Officer Failure said:

With my mechanic you can lift the uncon barrier higher and hear the shot, fight back (on the ground), pull a grenade, scream in the mic. You can do something and you know at least what hit you. But yes maybe falling is too much but stuff like this must be tested a lot if ever implemented anyways -right now it's just in my head. With complexity comes possibility imo.

I definitely would prefer that over instantly going uncon just to be finished by a follow up shot in 99% of cases.

You could pull a smoke and try to avoid getting hit again. Maybe a "stumble" that forces you to prone and you drop your weapon, but you can get back up after that and pick it up. What do you think?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Buakaw

[Officer Failure 33]

Absolutely, I may have put it in too hardcore way previously. But Modders could tweak values more in the hardcore direction. Besides, with a pain mechanic the devs (or modders) can bring in stuff like tasers (shooting or non shooting ones) or the cattle prod more easy. Stuff that hurts but doesn't kill (like getting shot while wearing a protective vest), to break the edge from the shock values where almost nothing happens to a certain point (in terms of movement) and all of the sudden you fall into sleep. And rubber slugs would be more useful too.