My solution to Dayz's base building problem - make hesco barriers a viable option

[tomusgilbert 9]

Bases on vanilla Dayz servers have never really been a viable goal. The problem is because of two conflicting issues in the game:

1. The concept that any player should always have the ability to break into any base, unlike other games such as rust. This idea has always been what people have envisioned for Dayz for many years, six years ago(!) Brian Hicks mentioned that "no bases should be impenetrable". By the way, I do like this concept but I think it should only be kept to an extent.

2. Bases should never be impenetrable, so players instead have to defend their bases with either traps or themselves because this is more realistic (like what you would see in The Walking Dead). I also like this concept and think it should also be kept to an extent.

The problem is that either players have to defend their bases around the clock, or those players just have to accept that the base they spent potentially several days building will be easily broken into in a matter of hours after they log off. Obviously defending your base 24/7 is completely impractical, even if that's more realistic because that's what you would have to do in real life.

 

My solution to this conflict between realism and practicality is: 

Meet half way by having the ability to stack Hesco barriers up on top of each other to create a stronger base.

Hesco barriers are already in the game, they make sense as a much more durable fortification and they fit in the world of Dayz. The hesco boxes should be more common but still rare enough where the process of building a base always starts with making it with wood/metal as it is already, so that the first few days your base looks something like this: 

During this time your base is a lot more vulnerable like it is in the current game. More time is devoted to protection but no guarantees of it surviving. You would obviously be storing up hesco boxes in this time and raiding other groups in the same stage of base building would likely help you get more boxes.

After a fair amount of time accumulating these hesco boxes, you're able to start building something more like this: 

You should also have the ability to add barbed wire to the top of the hesco walls to prevent players climbing over. After more time the hesco walls could be built up to the maximum limit of 3 boxes high, which offers more protection but also requires a lot more boxes. These bases would be very hard to raid. I know this goes against what many people envisioned for the game including Brian Hicks, but the trade off is that these bases take a lot more effort to build and that effort is rewarded. It also avoids the unnatural feel of many base building mods that we've seen (including those dreaded brown skyscrapers) whilst still being reliably protected.

 

To me this just seems like a no-brainer that this is the direction the developers should take with base building.

- It fits in the world of Dayz;

- rewards players for effort; 

- shouldn't be hard to implement since we already have the in-game assets (the boxes) ready and waiting; 

- somewhat maintains base vulnerability by keeping the "improvised" wood bases relevant, whilst also giving players the option to reliably protect their high-value items, farms, vehicles, etc. if they put in the work;

- makes vanilla base building viable without the need for 24/7 protection from base owners for their bases to survive.

 

I would imagine this would create a world where "clans" emerge, that not only base raid and protect their own bases, but can set up trading with each other, create alliances for control and take over other bases too. All this would be possible without the forced role-play you see on some RP servers which I don't like due to their rules on KOS and weird interactions (in my opinion). They would also have a space where they can use features like farming, vehicle maintenance and things that involve electricity like generators and lights (currently a wasted feature) to their full potential. I think this would open up a whole new dynamic in Dayz.

Let me know what you guys think.

 

(edit: poor wording)

Edited April 6, 2021 by tomusgilbert

[ZBA 66]

I have better idea that connects game and real life balance because a lot of players are adults and dont have time to defend base but in same time they want to build something in free time.

When you logout all walls, gates, tower you build are raidable in 48 hours. After 48 hours of being offline all your structures are under 100% protective zone and you cannot destroy them by any weapon in game. This protection status last for next 7 days and after 7 days base is free to raid. (structures again take damage). When you login After 48 hours of being offline then all your structures are also raidable.

Its fake system that do not fit into dayz realistic standards but its only system for healthy gameplay when you have job, kids and real life first but in same time you want enjoy your favourite game.

[tomusgilbert 9]

So I found out that hesco boxes could be stacked as of 1.08 exp, but then the spawn rate was set to zero in 1.08 stable. And they would still not viable for base building since they can be quickly dismantled with a shovel. Hopefully this can be changed!

Edited April 7, 2021 by tomusgilbert
Updated info

[tomusgilbert 9]

On 4/2/2021 at 11:43 PM, ZBA said:

I have better idea that connects game and real life balance because a lot of players are adults and dont have time to defend base but in same time they want to build something in free time.

When you logout all walls, gates, tower you build are raidable in 48 hours. After 48 hours of being offline all your structures are under 100% protective zone and you cannot destroy them by any weapon in game. This protection status last for next 7 days and after 7 days base is free to raid. (structures again take damage). When you login After 48 hours of being offline then all your structures are also raidable.

Its fake system that do not fit into dayz realistic standards but its only system for healthy gameplay when you have job, kids and real life first but in same time you want enjoy your favourite game.

I get what you're saying but I would prefer a more natural system. That's exactly why I like the progression of making a base made of wood to one made of hesco boxes. My idea is that once you've built up your base then it'll be more safe, but never unraidable like if it had a protection status on it

[Just Caused 423]

All in all good, but you missed the main point. How does this affect base deconstruction? Prolonged timer or something else?

[William Sternritter 441]

25 minutes ago, tomusgilbert said:

So I found out that hesco boxes can be stacked as of 1.08, but they are still not viable for base building since they can be quickly dismantled with a shovel. Hopefully this can be changed!

They can be dismantled even when on top of each other? Because I thought that is where you're going with the proposal. That you cannot effectively dismantle a hesco that is stacked from the ground level. 

[tomusgilbert 9]

3 minutes ago, Just Caused said:

All in all good, but you missed the main point. How does this affect base deconstruction? Prolonged timer or something else?

I don't believe in timers personally. I think it would make sense if explosives were the only way of destroying the boxes. Obviously this creates problems if you need to move a whole section of these barriers, so I'm open to ideas. Maybe if the barriers required 8 large stones to fill them in, and thus a pickaxe would be required to remove it, but it would take an extended amount of time to deconstruct

[tomusgilbert 9]

10 minutes ago, William Sternritter said:

They can be dismantled even when on top of each other? Because I thought that is where you're going with the proposal. That you cannot effectively dismantle a hesco that is stacked from the ground level. 

I'm saying that they shouldn't easily be dismantled, that would make them pointless. I'm open to ideas on how they should be dismantled, the most logical way to me would be that they can only be destroyed using explosives. Obviously that could create problems when you misplace a whole row of them haha

[William Sternritter 441]

22 minutes ago, tomusgilbert said:

I'm saying that they shouldn't easily be dismantled, that would make them pointless. I'm open to ideas on how they should be dismantled, the most logical way to me would be that they can only be destroyed using explosives. Obviously that could create problems when you misplace a whole row of them haha

Yes, if the suggestion is to make bases more durable then it makes sense that only explosives would damage these. I guess the weakest point would still be base entrance though, you cannot make that out of hesco. 

[Just Caused 423]

I personally think Rust has good base building mechanics. You either blow it up or click few thousands times wall to destroy it with a pickaxe. Instead of having to hold mouse button, I think it's much more exhausting to click it.

[Buakaw 274]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:43 PM, ZBA said:

I have better idea that connects game and real life balance because a lot of players are adults and dont have time to defend base but in same time they want to build something in free time.

When you logout all walls, gates, tower you build are raidable in 48 hours. After 48 hours of being offline all your structures are under 100% protective zone and you cannot destroy them by any weapon in game. This protection status last for next 7 days and after 7 days base is free to raid. (structures again take damage). When you login After 48 hours of being offline then all your structures are also raidable.

Its fake system that do not fit into dayz realistic standards but its only system for healthy gameplay when you have job, kids and real life first but in same time you want enjoy your favourite game.

yeah, healthy for you.

[DefectiveWater 491]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:43 PM, ZBA said:

I have better idea that connects game and real life balance because a lot of players are adults and dont have time to defend base but in same time they want to build something in free time.

When you logout all walls, gates, tower you build are raidable in 48 hours. After 48 hours of being offline all your structures are under 100% protective zone and you cannot destroy them by any weapon in game. This protection status last for next 7 days and after 7 days base is free to raid. (structures again take damage). When you login After 48 hours of being offline then all your structures are also raidable.

Its fake system that do not fit into dayz realistic standards but its only system for healthy gameplay when you have job, kids and real life first but in same time you want enjoy your favourite game.

Nah... if you can't dedicate your time to keeping your base secure, then don't build ones... simple as that.
You want to safely store loot inside your base? Then dedicate your time for it, or store it in stashes around the map. They are harder to find than giant base walls.

Raiding bases as a solo player is already hard as it is (as a non base builder, I feel like they are balanced), and grenades are as buggy as they can be. Door frames will very often stop grenades from dealing any damage to the walls. Point of bases isn't that ANYONE can make one and have a safe stash place for weeks with no trouble, point of bases is that dedicated DayZ players can have something more to do, promoting co-op play with friends or a clan so they can keep maintaining their base. 

If you have to keep some stuff safe, grab a barrel or a craft a crate, stuff it with items, pick it up and log out. I think that works, albeit it seems like abusing the system, but whatever...

Edited April 6, 2021 by DefectiveWater

[tomusgilbert 9]

14 hours ago, William Sternritter said:

Yes, if the suggestion is to make bases more durable then it makes sense that only explosives would damage these. I guess the weakest point would still be base entrance though, you cannot make that out of hesco. 

I'm kinda stuck on how base entrances could be strengthened to be almost as strong as boxes. The best I could come up with was to have thick sheet metal that spawns similarly to the pallets of timber. They would be far rarer and spawn inside factories, and would be attached to a gate like the one in the second picture. But if you think of anything better let me know 😎

 

14 hours ago, Just Caused said:

I personally think Rust has good base building mechanics. You either blow it up or click few thousands times wall to destroy it with a pickaxe. Instead of having to hold mouse button, I think it's much more exhausting to click it.

I like the idea of having to continually click to dismantle, but come to think of it, even just the ability to dismantle them with common tools will make it too easy. Most people would probably be more willing to quickly find a pickaxe or sledgehammer and hack at a box for say 10 or 20 minutes, rather than using the proper equipment like explosives which would take more time

 

13 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Point of bases isn't that ANYONE can make one and have a safe stash place for weeks with no trouble, point of bases is that dedicated DayZ players can have something more to do, promoting co-op play with friends or a clan so they can keep maintaining their base. 

This is exactly what I want to see for base-building. Just gotta find the balance between vulnerability and protection

[Officer Failure 31]

I currently accumulate material for a base and thought about it alot (and i broke into many). So here are my 2 Cents:

A free standing multi layer forrest base is off right now since you can`t stack fences anymore so its too easy to just get over fences.
It would be my personal favorite and i have the material for it. I even thought about a watchtower only base - but with four layers its immensive and just a nope.

The only way right now is to secure a house and make it with multiple gates/fences.
Its 30- 40 min for one layer to break through and if someone commites this time and has all those pickaxes sharpening stones and splitting axes he can have all my makarovs and bk 18 since i always logg off with a packpack in hand with all my goodies anyway.

What should be differnt

When you destroy a gate right now you get that pristine lock - it should get destroyd or you should have to unlock it. Dialing all the numbers through idiotic so maybe with a percentage thing which takes 20mins (maybe like the way you saw a codelock open on modded server), a perfect work for nights or rainy days and if when youre sick. Because when you have a mulit gate house and they`re half throug and say f*** they can you lock out with that pristine lock right now.

Fences on grass and in forrest should be able to beefed up with dirt (lover half shovel work) or and with a additional layer (upper layer) or overall just more differnt moddels - smaller wider thicker
Stackable fences ! Maybe with a diagonal strut and different models (ofc you can`t beef that higher ones up). High enough so they can`t jump over it with a watchtower.

Making gates thicker is unrealistic since you have make it openable.

But more diffenrent models - smaller ones for houses maybe with door collison - then you could make more gates after another and all a tad more realistic.
Higher ones or just with a buildable fences on top for the forrest ones - so you can`t just build a cheap siege tower and jump over it.  Or/ nerving the watchtower in it`s height. I think you still gotta build more than one gate to be secure.

If that would be the case i would build that forrest base!

The amout of time to hack trough a fence is fine - maybe a little buff would be nice.
But thinking "yea i make ONE gate and im save" should be left behind imo

[ZBA 66]

I'm sad that all of you missing the fact that game as a medium should also reward you as a player to keep you engaging longer. You all want to make traps, more health for walls to be more resistance for damage etc but the core of the gameplay is not this but we as a players are, and we will always find a way to ruin someone base in one day after he builds it in free time for the last 1-2 weeks. If you want healthy-rewarding gameplay bases must be unable to raid when owner is offline as I described in my previous post higher in this topic.

 

Do whatever you want to do with base but only when owner is online and he can protect his stuff. After he go offline the "raid option" is still enabled for next 24h and after that time base goes under 100% protective zone and nobody can destroy it in next 7 days unless owner or base member will login again then protective zone is automaticity disabled. After that time base is again open for raiding and cycle repeat.

Edited April 7, 2021 by ZBA

[DefectiveWater 491]

4 hours ago, tomusgilbert said:

I like the idea of having to continually click to dismantle, but come to think of it, even just the ability to dismantle them with common tools will make it too easy. Most people would probably be more willing to quickly find a pickaxe or sledgehammer and hack at a box for say 10 or 20 minutes, rather than using the proper equipment like explosives which would take more time

But it's like that in vanilla, you have to click every time you want to punch/hit a wall, tools get damaged, so you need like 5 sledgehammers for a 1 wall so that you can crawl under it. That's about 1200 clicks/hits with a sledgehammer.
You are underestimating how tough base walls truly are, and if you get raided but you only had 1 gate, that's your issue, not a game issue. Stack multiple gates so that it's harder to raid.

The only thing that I would maybe change is breaking the code locks by just guessing all  the possible combinations, or add the ability to use something other than code locks.

As I already said, making bases shouldn't be easy and neither should it be something that everyone does or even a majority of players, imagine if EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IN THE SERVER made a base, over a period of a week there would be at least 60 to 300 bases easily.
Bases should reward effort, as they do now because if you play regularly, and better yet if you have 2-3 teammates it's easy to have bases.

No dumb offline/logout safe space/indestructible bases, that's just dumb.

The only 2 improvements that I would to do bases is adjustable wall lengths, shorter walls = less resources needed. You select one point, another point, and that's the distance of your wall. Should be limited to max distance of the current wall.
Another improvement would be more materials, or just more types of walls/fences/gates that are harder to make, but are more durable

I would maybe make bases decay over time, so that if players aren't maintaining them, they get slowly destroyed (over like few weeks, but if that change does go through, I would add a small buff to base durability, like 5% at most).

There are plenty of modded servers that have basebuilding mods, or mods that restrict raiding to only with stuff like C4 and such, maybe you should check those out (unless you are on a console).
This all comes from a player who never even once built a single wall, so no wonder my opinion is different. I live a life from 0-100 then I die, and I'm back to 0 again.
That's the way that I like playing this game, and I'm not saying my way is better, but making standard base walls even tougher would be too much.

Edited April 7, 2021 by DefectiveWater

[tomusgilbert 9]

@Officer Failure 

- I like the idea that dial locks should be destroyed when raiding a base. And yes, the process for unlocking a dial lock does need streamlining. I dunno how it works right now but I think if you use scroll wheel to change the numbers and mouse 1 to switch between each dial, that would be a pretty quick process. Or even just typing the numbers and each time you type a number it switches to the next dial.

- The whole idea behind this post was "beefing up" your base with hesco boxes. It's a good idea but something like that would take time to implement when we already have hesco boxes working in game.

- I'm very against the concept of stacking fences, I see them in modded servers and visually they make me want to vomit. Not to mention the devs would not want their base building system to look ugly when trying to market their game.

HOWEVER you did raise a good point about using watch towers as siege towers, it makes building a base in the forest or in a clear area completely invalid. I'm kinda stumped on how to solve this issue. In medieval times, to prevent siege towers coming close to your walls you would generally build a moat, which would be cool... but with the way Dayz works I doubt you can dig out parts of the map, and it would also be pretty much impossible to fill it with water. The best solution I have is that putting barbed wire on your fence would create a 5-10 meter zone in front of the wall where watch towers and walls can't be built. It's far from a great solution in terms of realism, but it's the best I can think of without creating major changes to the game for such a small loophole.

 

Thanks for the input! Have a nice day 😎

[tomusgilbert 9]

@DefectiveWater I think you changed my mind! I whole-heartily agree with you that bases shouldn't be a logout safe space or indestructible. I guess I was just thinking that explosives/other heavy duty equipment should be the only way of raiding but then that would cause most bases to be untouched.

- I'm not sure what you're saying about code locks, are you saying that if you try all the combinations then the lock should just break? I think the focus should be on breaking the gate itself rather than the lock.

- I definitely agree with you that bases should also not be easy to build, they should reward effort.

- I also really like the idea of having shorter base walls with a max length of the current wall, and having different variations of the current materials. It would definitely help to make bases look more the part and freshen up their look!

- Isn't base decay already a thing? I think you just interact with the base flag and it refreshes the base's decay timer. I might be wrong, I haven't done much base building either for the reasons I mentioned in the original post...

- Yeah I agree with you that we shouldn't make bases too indestructible. And no I'm not a fan of base raiding in modded servers, dunno what I was thinking 😒😂

[DefectiveWater 491]

23 minutes ago, tomusgilbert said:

@DefectiveWater I think you changed my mind! I whole-heartily agree with you that bases shouldn't be a logout safe space or indestructible. I guess I was just thinking that explosives/other heavy duty equipment should be the only way of raiding but then that would cause most bases to be untouched.

- I'm not sure what you're saying about code locks, are you saying that if you try all the combinations then the lock should just break? I think the focus should be on breaking the gate itself rather than the lock.

- I definitely agree with you that bases should also not be easy to build, they should reward effort.

- I also really like the idea of having shorter base walls with a max length of the current wall, and having different variations of the current materials. It would definitely help to make bases look more the part and freshen up their look!

- Isn't base decay already a thing? I think you just interact with the base flag and it refreshes the base's decay timer. I might be wrong, I haven't done much base building either for the reasons I mentioned in the original post...

- Yeah I agree with you that we shouldn't make bases too indestructible. And no I'm not a fan of base raiding in modded servers, dunno what I was thinking 😒😂

Nah, all I'm saying is that guessing all the combinations is dumb, and there should be different ways to lock a base without the potential of just breaking in after trying combinations for 30 minutes (keep the codelocks in, but add a rare alternative to codelocks too).

I'm not sure about base decay, but from what I know, items in the world just suddenly vanish when their time expires.
Lets say, there are 4 steps (pristine, worn, damaged, badly damaged) and then final ruined, that means if a wall (I'm just throwing random numbers just to explain my idea) lasts for 4 weeks:

First week of not fixing the wall: Pristine
Second week of not fixing the wall: Worn
.
.
.

And after enough time, they should get ruined, and disappear.
Walls should get a slight durability buff to offset the damage of the second week, or something close to that.

I would make this "maintenance" thing to almost all items, but I'm assuming that this is too server performance heavy and that's why there is no such thing, I might be wrong.
For example, I find it dumb that guns stashed in the ground don't get damaged over time.

Edited April 7, 2021 by DefectiveWater

[tomusgilbert 9]

7 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

Nah, all I'm saying is that guessing all the combinations is dumb, and there should be different ways to lock a base without the potential of just breaking in after trying combinations for 30 minutes (keep the codelocks in, but add a rare alternative to codelocks too).

I'm not sure about base decay, but from what I know, items in the world just suddenly vanish when their time expires.
Lets say, there are 4 steps (pristine, worn, damaged, badly damaged) and then final ruined, that means if a wall (I'm just throwing random numbers just to explain my idea) lasts for 4 weeks:

First week of not fixing the wall: Pristine
Second week of not fixing the wall: Worn
.
.
.

And after enough time, they should get ruined, and disappear.

I would make this "maintenance" thing to almost all items, but I'm assuming that this is too server performance heavy and that's why there is no such thing, I might be wrong.
For example, I find it dumb that guns stashed in the ground don't get damaged over time.

I agree that guessing combinations for 30 minutes is not good for gameplay. But I'm fresh out of ideas for alternatives. You might want to open up a new threat for code locks and get some ideas from the community 😂

Yeah I like that idea of items progressively decaying rather than just vanishing, and thus having to perform maintenance on them. Surely it wouldn't be too much of a problem for server performance? There are thousands of items that have those statuses for the amount of damage on a particular item in every server. But hey I'm no game developer.

 

[Just Caused 423]

10 hours ago, tomusgilbert said:

I'm kinda stuck on how base entrances could be strengthened to be almost as strong as boxes. The best I could come up with was to have thick sheet metal that spawns similarly to the pallets of timber. They would be far rarer and spawn inside factories, and would be attached to a gate like the one in the second picture. But if you think of anything better let me know 😎

 

I like the idea of having to continually click to dismantle, but come to think of it, even just the ability to dismantle them with common tools will make it too easy. Most people would probably be more willing to quickly find a pickaxe or sledgehammer and hack at a box for say 10 or 20 minutes, rather than using the proper equipment like explosives which would take more time

 

This is exactly what I want to see for base-building. Just gotta find the balance between vulnerability and protection

And that's exactly why almost no one in Rust uses pickaxes to get inside the base, except in some rare cases where you have few friends watching your back while you mine. Same would go for DayZ.

['AZAZEL' 109]

On 4/7/2021 at 12:26 PM, ZBA said:

I'm sad that all of you missing the fact that game as a medium should also reward you as a player to keep you engaging longer. You all want to make traps, more health for walls to be more resistance for damage etc but the core of the gameplay is not this but we as a players are, and we will always find a way to ruin someone base in one day after he builds it in free time for the last 1-2 weeks. If you want healthy-rewarding gameplay bases must be unable to raid when owner is offline as I described in my previous post higher in this topic.

Honestly, just go and find yourself some PVE рuѕѕy server already where raiding is not allowed or make a faction/group with people who can play more than you.

You do not seem to understand one of the basic facts, that not everyone plays at the same time nor in the same timezone ... and there is no such thing as "owner". You do not own your base. I can walk up to your walls and continue building or dismantle them as I choose. There is no "territory" or "ownership" mechanic in the vanilla game.

Healthy-rewarding gameplay would be to make raiding harder all the time, not impossible during arbitrary times.

Edited April 11, 2021 by 'AZAZEL'