A realistic look at firearms

[Comanche6 9]

Let me digress into a thought experiment for a moment. Take the ongoing civil war in Syria as a case study and search briefly for small arms used in that conflict (Google image search is best). Then think about how that war started and contrast it to fictional "lore" Chernarus.

Syria is very similar to pre-DayZ Chernarus. A former Russian puppet state, equipped and funded to carry out their aims in the region. Maybe Chernarus is slightly more like pre-Velvet Divorce Czechoslovakia, having it's own, if limited arms industry, but it's basically the same thing. There were several conflicts in Chernarus and then a civil war, all involving NATO and Russia and the local CDF/rebels. NATO/UN left peacekeepers there sometime prior to the outbreak which led to DayZ. Syria had its own share of conflicts in the region, then came under despotic rule and a civil war erupted during the tail end of the "Arab Spring", with NATO and Russia backing sides in a proxy war, along with local rebels broken in to factions. I'm not looking to argue politics here so leave it.

Pre-civil war, Syria had a military almost entirely equipped by Russian made small arms. Civilians had been largely disarmed--firearms ownership amongst the population was restricted, placing Syria in rank 112 of 178 for private firearms ownership. You think a despotic ruler needs firearms in private hands to help fuel a rebellion? There was very limited local small arms industry and all of that was dedicated to the government. The entire inventory was Russian small arms, save for some post-WWII Mausers, MG42s, some captured Israeli stuff (FALs, mostly) and some sample pieces from Steyr and the like. The rate of firearms ownership amongst the population was 3.9 per 100, pre-civil war, and this includes illegal firearms. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/syria

Chernarus was similarly a Russian puppet state. As a communist, totalitarian state for many decades, it would have had a similar makeup to Syria in terms of firearms. Restricted civilian ownership, and a heavy police and government stockpile, mostly Russian made, augmented by Czech made firearms, in keeping with the lore. For examples of gun ownership in former Russian states, take a look here: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/armenia

But both countries entered a period of civil war. All those guns would have come into play, especially the illegal ones, and then another very common thing happened, foreign COMPANIES spotted a business opportunity and moved in to make some cash. War equals profit for arms, ammo and accessories manufacturers. It works like this: they sell stockpiles of inventory (read guns, ammo and scopes) to other countries or to middle-men known as dealers. Some of these dealers are "gray market" dealers, which means they bend the rules. Some of these dealers are controlled by superpowers involved in the conflict. These gray dealers sell direct to the fighters on both sides, or through other black market dealers and a steady flow of arms enters the conflict in order to fuel it so that everyone in that distribution chain can make money, often a lot of it. Other arms "fall off" government trucks both in the country in question and outside of it. Take a look at the aforementioned Syria small arms Google images. Where did all that stuff come from? Dealers in both direct sales or via smuggled channels. We have Stg44s, Garands, and tons of Chinese (Norinco) made Type 56s and clones of Remington shotguns, among Steyr hunting rifles and tons of Chinese scopes. The real winner in Syria is going to be Norinco. It is a grab bag of any and all guns and scopes. You name it, it's probably in use there.

However, the likelihood of encountering a weapon, even in Syria, is based directly on its volume shipped/in use. That means, in order: AKM, AK-47 and clones (Type 56), AK-74(M), PKM, RPG-7V, F1 grenade, RPK, RPD, M16 and derivatives, FN FAL, G3, Uzi, PPSh-41, Mosin 44 carbine, then everything else, including pistols. The reason it's this way is because the top produced weapons in the world are most likely to be sold in a conflict first (because there's the most inventory of those types lying around with nobody buying)--and that list of weapons above were made in the tens of millions--and they swamp the competition, mostly because they are common, but moreover, effective.

Chernarus too had a big internal conflict backed by superpowers and then NATO/UN/Russia set up bases there. There would have been tons of arms shipped into the country during the war. But what happens when a civil war ends? They DISARM the fighters, then the populaton and either destroy or sell the arms. If the conflict in Syria ever cools off, that's exactly what's going to happen there and it's safe to assume that's what happened in Chernarus. They don't want ANYBODY except the government powers that be running around with guns, until everyone cools off. That means door to door searches, voluntary amnesty/buy-back, snitch for cash, cracking down on arms dealers, the whole works. All of sudden, guns become REAL rare, not counting the ones in soldiers' hands.

So my theory of what arms should be available in DayZ (post-civil war and then post-outbreak Chernarus), in order of likelihood of encountering, is the following:

1. 
   

   Russian military weapons (COMMON): AKM, AK-74(M), PKM, RPG-7V, Makarov, SVD, maybe Bizon, 12.7mm sniper (unlikely as not need for peacekeeping)

   
   
   
2. 
   

   NATO and UN military weapons (depends on which countries were there--UNCOMMON): M16/M4 derivatives, M249/Minimi, FN MAG (M240), G3, M14 (DMR), L85/Steyr AUG, AT-4/M72 LAW/Carl Gustaf, various bolt action .308 snipers, MP5, shotguns and pistols, .338/12.7mm sniperr rifles (unlikely as not need for peacekeeping)

   
   
   
3. 
   

   Foreign military weapons (illegal and therefore RARE): Type 56 (AK-47), FN FAL, G3, Mausers, maybe Lee Enfields/Garand, FN MAG, MG42, Uzi, MP-40/MP5, PPSh-41/42

   
   
   
4. 
   

   Civilian guns (illegal and therefore RARE-UNIQUE): largely 12 ga. shotguns, pump (Rem 870 clone) and single/double barrel, a few hunting rifles (think Rem 700), a grab bag of common pistols (mostly 9mm/.38/.380/7.62x25--Tokarev, 1911 clones, Beretta clones, lots of .38 revolvers)

   
   
   

Ammunition available (in order): 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 7.62x54R, 5.56x45, 7.62x51, hand grenades, 9mm, 12 ga., RPG rockets, land mines, 7.92x57, .223, .308, .38, 7.62x25, .380, .45, some 12.7mm, other rockets

Edited April 8, 2015 by Comanche6

[Whyherro123 2283]

 

-snip-

Uh. Are you forgetting that it has been 20 years since the Soviet Union collapsed, and there is (er, was)  every evidence of certain freedoms (namely, free travel) and flourishing Capitalism in the region

 

Chernarus TOTALLY had its own firearms manufacturer, which supplied arms and presumably, ammunition, for the civilian population: Chernarusk Zbrojovka, which is currently represented by the CR527 "brush gun" carbine and the CR75 automatic pistol. The CR75 automatic also entered production in 1975, which suggests that Chernarus was relatively self-sufficient when it came to firearms, even back in the "Good? Old Days" of Soviet Communism. Based on this, the "local" (that is, firearms used by the Chernarus Defense Force) military weapons were probably produced locally, and in fact the local Communist rebels (Chedaki or ChDKZ, of which we find their beret in-game) is known for using either captured Governmental arms (AKA produced locally), or arms shipped from the Russian Federation.

 

http://dayz.gamepedia.com/CR527_Carbine

http://dayz.gamepedia.com/CR75

http://chernarussia.wikia.com/wiki/CHDZ

 

There is nothing to suggest that civilian ownership of firearms was illegal before the "zombie apocalypse", and, considering how South Zagoria (the region of Chernarus we play in) is overwhelmingly rural and agriculture-based, it most likely would be the exact opposite. 

 

The most common firearms I expect to see in Chernarus are (almost overwhelmingly) shotguns + bolt-action hunting rifles (primarily in the countryside), and automatic handguns (primarily in the cities), with automatic military armament being (exceptionally rarely) found at checkpoints, or in ChDKZ camps and stockpiles in the wilderness (especially the northern wilderness, along the Russian border). 

[Comanche6 9]

Uh, there may have been some freedoms but the pattern of post Soviet republics is very limited private gun ownership--there is nothing to suggest that civilians could even own firearms in Chernarus.

 

You TOTALLY missed my point I made that Chernarus had its own limited industry. Maybe an industry dedicated to servicing the military and making sporting rifles and pistols for export only.

 

There is nothing to suggest that firearms ownership was thus legal.

 

Just because you expect to see civilian arms in the game, doesn't mean the "lore" behind the game universe supports that. I'm presenting an alternative view to all the silly weapons they are adding to the game. (some of them because this forum shouts loud enough to have them, Red9, for example).

[SFRGaming 718]

Compares virtual game universe with the real universe and thinks it has the same laws

[Chaingunfighter 917]

There is nothing to suggest that firearms ownership was thus legal.

Except for the fact that the devs have directly addressed this point multiple times stating that 'their' Chernarus was based heavily on the Czech Republic (among other countries) and that it did indeed have civilian firearm ownership.

 

The stark amount of clearly civilian firearms that would have no real benefit to an insurgent force as well as the fact that you have civilians in ArmA 2 armed with hunting rifles despite not being associated with the insurgency movement. I mean, why would the CHDkZ and NAPA guerrillas bother buying multi-thousand dollar Blaser B95 rifles, Rossi R92 lever-actions, FN Trombones, Ruger 10/22s, Thompson Contenders, Colt Pythons, and Winchester rifles when they could get useful AKs and surplus military equipment for arguably cheaper prices?

 

Because I really doubt if they hadn't decided that in the lore gun ownership was legal they'd have added 75% of the guns we have now, unless you want to assume they're just being 'incompetent' or 'indecisive'. In any case it's not like they're just going to stop adding everything they planned before and get rid of all of the civilian guns because some guy on the forums assumed that without direct confirmation of legal ownership that it must be illegal.

[gibonez 3633]

You can't use Syria or any war zone as a realistic example of what the firearm situation would be in Chenarus.

 

Syria is an ongoing war with both sides having healthy logistical supply chains of weapons and munitions constantly flooding the nation with their wares.

 

Chenarus is a situation where society completely collapses there are no outside factions importing weapons and ammo at their leisure. Those said factions are probably in the same circumstance as Chenarus and are dealing with their own outbreaks.

[ebrim 998]

Gun ownership particularly for hunting was actually quite common in the Soviet Union, especially in rural areas. There were a couple attempts in the late 20's and during collectivization to confiscate many guns, particularly in the cities but these were short-lived episodes.

[Comanche6 9]

It appears the esteemed Frequent Posters Club on this forum disagrees with a simple thought experiment, "correcting" my logic and telling me I can't compare Syria to Chernarus: in effect, defending the game design choices already made. Nevertheless, I still disagree with the choices they made regarding firearms. Instead of some narrative to tie it all together, which I attempted to present, the devs have selected a bunch of curios and relics (excluding the military models) to represent in game. Despite whatever blather you offer on the subject, there is no logic to the models of firearms they have selected other than meta-game logic (we need one lever action, a revolver, etc.). They don't fit in the game universe and thus dilute if not break immersion. I just wish the story were more consistent, other than "Torchia thinks it's cool" and the forums whined enough to get a Red 9, for example. 

[BeefBacon 1185]

 the devs have selected a bunch of curios and relics (excluding the military models) to represent in game. Despite whatever blather you offer on the subject, there is no logic to the models of firearms they have selected other than meta-game logic (we need one lever action, a revolver, etc.)

 

Well. Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head there, buddy. I'll admit, I only read your bullet points where you said that Russian military weapons should be common and civilian weapons should be rare. In real life, sure. That might be the case. But this isn't real life. This is a game where if AKMs were more common than shotguns and rifles, it'd have a negative impact on gameplay.

 

You could argue that some weapons don't strictly belong, sure, but speaking from my own perspective; I really couldn't care less. I don't know one end of a gun from another.

 

I expect that the devs are filling in the gaps. Remember that originally we had, what, an M4, a Mosin and a shotgun along with some pistols? As the weapons list expanded we got more rifles, more assault rifles and more shotguns. I don't doubt that by the end of development the weapons list will be so diluted that you won't have to worry about finding weapons that don't belong because they'll be suitably rare. For now, however, these guns fill a niche in the same way that the Mosin fills the role of sniper.

[pale1776 375]

I think the current situation in Ukraine would better match Chernarus

[pale1776 375]

It appears the esteemed Frequent Posters Club on this forum disagrees with a simple thought experiment, "correcting" my logic and telling me I can't compare Syria to Chernarus: in effect, defending the game design choices already made. Nevertheless, I still disagree with the choices they made regarding firearms. Instead of some narrative to tie it all together, which I attempted to present, the devs have selected a bunch of curios and relics (excluding the military models) to represent in game. Despite whatever blather you offer on the subject, there is no logic to the models of firearms they have selected other than meta-game logic (we need one lever action, a revolver, etc.). They don't fit in the game universe and thus dilute if not break immersion. I just wish the story were more consistent, other than "Torchia thinks it's cool" and the forums whined enough to get a Red 9, for example.

And bro, chill out. No one here's sayin any things better than anyone, your actin like a kid trying to back up your backless suggestion. So there's nothing that implies gun ownership was legal? Well guess what- nothing suggests it was illegal either.

That's already invalidated. Plus the plethora of civilian weapons implies civilian ownership. Don't think the CDF or NATO would be cruising with 22s and Blazes. Or even Mosins for that matter, but questionable.

Nothing suggests the zombies are real, so it must be the dream of a wounded soldier on the Chernarussian front?

[gibonez 3633]

I think the current situation in Ukraine would better match Chernarus

Not even remotely.

 

You have two sides supplying arms steadily to fuel the conflict.

 

Ukraine prior to the war would be a good match however before it was flooded with military weapons, tanks and apcs.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

It appears the esteemed Frequent Posters Club on this forum disagrees with a simple thought experiment, "correcting" my logic and telling me I can't compare Syria to Chernarus: in effect, defending the game design choices already made.

High post count is irrelevant in this instance, and a lot of the 'corrections' are right - Syria is a Middle Eastern country with a very heavy Sunni/Muslim presence in both common day life and in the government - regular civilian firearm ownership is not common in those countries. Chernarus is an Eastern European country based off of several post-Soviet states, like the Czech Republic, Ukraine, and so forth. Those places do have a significant number of civilians that own their own firearms, regardless of whether they're legal or not.

 

 

Nevertheless, I still disagree with the choices they made regarding firearms. Instead of some narrative to tie it all together, which I attempted to present, the devs have selected a bunch of curios and relics (excluding the military models) to represent in game.

Makarovs, CZ75s, Colt 1911s, P1s, Ruger 10/22s, FN Trombones, CZ-527s, SKS rifles, Mosins, IZH-43s, and MP-133s are all weapons you can find in at least reasonable quantities in Eastern Europe. They're certainly not 'curios' or 'relics'.

 

I do agree that certain weapons, like the Colt Python, Rossi R92, Blaser B95, Derringer, and Thompson Contender are questionable enough.

 

 

Despite whatever blather you offer on the subject, there is no logic to the models of firearms they have selected other than meta-game logic (we need one lever action, a revolver, etc.). They don't fit in the game universe and thus dilute if not break immersion.

Which is entirely the point - to offer a variety of weapons to make the gameplay interesting. Sure, they aren't realistic, but you might want to reconsider how you view immersion if having a generic double rifle or lever-action in the game is really going to 'kill the mood' for you.

 

'Meta', or 'gameplay' is very valid argument when you're making a game. DayZ is realistic but it's not nor supposed to be the epitome of realism. It's not blather.

 

I just wish the story were more consistent, other than "Torchia thinks it's cool" and the forums whined enough to get a Red 9, for example. 

What's really inconsistent about what they have now? All of the weapons you have issue with are just generic civilian weapons that can easily be explained away as civilian imports or basically any other reason why civilians would have civilian guns. It's not reasonable to expect the developers to write up an immense backstory as to why there are Rossi R92s in the game.

 

Also, if you read anything about the Red-9 you'll see that the developers had wanted one, too. It's not like the players had complete dictation on that choice - the demand for it just pushed it far enough onto the list to be implemented. And again, the Red-9 is not completely unrealistic, and 'meta-wise' it is quite different than the other pistols.

[HomerJay27 69]

Sorry bro, but I think your long ass post was a waste of time to type. This whole "are civilian guns legal or illegal" debate is pretty pathetic to begin with.

When we are talking about Chernarus, we are talking about a fictional country which might have historical events or cultural background that makes it verry unique amongst all the post soviet states or maybe not, the point is its fictional. And the lore of DayZ can constantly change.

 

Some guns like the colt python or the AUG are in because of the walking dead, at least the show had some influence on it.

Other guns like the M4 or FNX where placeholders in the early days and as the development progressed we saw more and more authentic guns making it into the game.

Of course a Nagant revolver or Tokarev would fit better than a FNX, but since the FNX is already in game it would be a waste to remove it. Same goes for other guns like the Derringer or Repeater. But those guns were implemented because they fit a niche and the ammo was alredy in game. And I'm sure we will see more authentic weapons coming.

 

On the Mauser C96 Red 9, this pistol was verry popular in china between and after the two world wars. There were many copys of the Mauser or  Luger P08 and even mixtures of both pistols. It's not that unrealistic that a Red 9 somehow came into the Soviet Union either through a trade of some kind or a buch of Mausers was capured by the Soviets in one of the border conflicts beween Russians and Chinese.

 

You should take look at this video. Maybe it gives you some insight in thoughts of the devs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1uQE27y9y8

 

 

And finally: DayZ is not all about the guns.

It is a survival game and not military sim like Arma or a Civil war like Far Cry where you can play rambo.

It will no longer be deathmatch in Electre.

In the future your primary concern will be to survive against the elements of nature and the infected.

Edited April 10, 2015 by HomerJay27

[Katana67 2907]

Chenarus is a situation where society completely collapses there are no outside factions importing weapons and ammo at their leisure. Those said factions are probably in the same circumstance as Chenarus and are dealing with their own outbreaks.

 

I'm not sure why you think this is the case. No real evidence to suggest there's any sort of outbreak outside of Chernarus, and either way, the whole "war" thing in the lore happened. The importation of a variety of firearms could have occurred before, during, or after said conflict. Never mind that, presumably, if Chernarus is the origin of an outbreak, the entire international community would be concerned and thus compelled to act (see the Ebola outbreak in Western Africa, where multiple foreign countries deployed military assets to the region). Never mind the myriad of UN peacekeeping missions around the globe, which are often long-lasting and have been deployed for less concerning reasons than a supposed "zombie virus" would be.

 

But then again, these are all presumptions. Not fact. Reading real world circumstance into all of this only gives us an idea of what might happen, but seeing as mankind has never experienced the fictional "zombie outbreak" I'm going to say we have no effing authoritative idea. So stop acting like you've got the market cornered on "what happened."

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/197778-military-unit-stationed-at-gorka-lore/?p=1995398

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/186377-framework-for-lore-discussion/

 

See? I can make things up as well.

 

Not even remotely.

 

You have two sides supplying arms steadily to fuel the conflict.

 

Ukraine prior to the war would be a good match however before it was flooded with military weapons, tanks and apcs.

 

Yes, absolutely. Chernarus had a war too, in which two opposing superpowers invested troops and equipment. There were rebel parties, border crossings, etc.

 

And again, I'm not sure how you can say that this is implausible to begin with, when it happens in every conflict in modern history.

 

Let's just go down the list then, shall we?

 

- Was Chernarus a host to multiple foreign militaries prior to (presumably) the outbreak? Yes.

- Does Chernarus have its own internal military and police force? Yes, same as Ukraine.

- Does Chernarus have its own internal firearms industry? You bet, same as Ukraine.

- Were there independent rebel groups operating on the fringes of legality/accountability in Chernarus? Sure!

- Is there a criminal underworld of Chernarus? Yes. 

 

In fact, I'd argue that Chernarus is more liable to have a wider variety of weapons inside of it, owing to the actual boots-on-the-ground presence of US troops. Whereas in Ukraine, it's pretty much just Ukraine versus Russia (and Russian-backed separatist groups of course).

 

But nevermind the whole "globalized economy" angle, which is in and of itself enough to justify the presence of weapons from around the world.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Sorry bro, but I think your long ass post was a waste of time to type. This whole "are civilian guns legal or illegal" debate is pretty pathetic to begin with.

When we are talking about Chernarus, we are talking about a fictional country which might have historical events or cultural background that makes it verry unique amongst all the post soviet states or maybe not, the point is its fictional. And the lore of DayZ can constantly change.

 

Some guns like the colt python or the AUG are in because of the walking dead, at least the show had some influence on it.

Other guns like the M4 or FNX where placeholders in the early days and as the development progressed we saw more and more authentic guns making it into the game.

 

On the Mauser C96 Red 9, this pistol was verry popular in china between and after the two world wars. There were many copys of the Mauser or  Luger P08 and even mixtures of both pistols. It's not that unrealistic that a Red 9 somehow came into the Soviet Union either through a trade of some kind or a buch of Mausers was capured by the Soviets in one of the border conflicts beween Russians and Chinese.

The AUG has no actual relation to the Walking Dead as far as I'm aware, but was actually added because it's used by the New Zealand Armed Forces that Dean was a part of, and it was one of his favorite ARs. It's also a pretty cool bullpup AR platform that's used by quite a few European countries, so it's not like it was an inherently bad choice or anything. The python probably was chosen because of TWD, but I can imagine there'll be at least a few more revolvers in the future.

 

Also, the M4A1 isn't really a placeholder in the same sense as the FNX - The M4A1's model was created specifically for DayZ in order to show off the new weapon attachment system to its full effect, and it's absolutely an authentic/realistic firearm to have. I mean, it'd obviously be less common than your typical AKs and whatnot, but many countries have some sort of AR-15 in service somewhere. And plus, the M4s we see are from NATO forces, and the M16 platform is pretty much universally used by NATO forces (even if its not standard in all of them.)

 

I don't think the term placeholder describes the FNX well either, because it implies that it's going to be removed from the game at some point, which it probably won't. The FNX was simply done because the devs had to push the December release date and wanted a modular pistol platform that could work with their holster and inventory system, so they used a shared model from the ArmA 3 devs and added it to the game. None of the guns we have now really would've made developmental sense in having them before the FNX, M4, or Mosin, because they all existed for systems we wouldn't have otherwise.

 

 

Also, the Chinese never used the Red 9 version we'll find in game, and those are among some of the rarest Mausers even in Europe, however it was clearly chosen because 7.63 Mauser is a very specific ammo type.

[HomerJay27 69]

[DURRHUNTER 597]

Reading this makes my head hurt and all i can see is making rifles more useful and making submachine guns and pistols obsolete.

And shotguns the rarest thing? they are useless past 40 yards.