Let's talk about body armor and its possible negatives to gameplay.

[gibonez 3633]

We all know plate carriers are coming. We all know some items in the game right now seem to reduce ballistic damage with wonky results.

 

However does anyone else thing plate carriers and ballistic vests should either only be cosmetic items and thus only determine how much a player can hold or only effectively stop pistol rounds and other small caliber rounds ?

 

 

Everyone that has played the mod will remember that one critical element of the mod was how vulnerable the player felt at all times in the game.

 

You could be armed to the teeth with all of the latest and greatest weapons in the game but a single makarov to your face could end it all.

 

A fully geared player was no less vulnerable than a fresh spawn. Everyone had the same health pool, everyone felt the same fear of losing their gear.

 

However in Standalone with armor we will have and do have situations where shooting and even engaging a geared player would be pointless.

 

You have silly situations where you have the jump on a player but due to the silly armor you pump 4 rounds of 7.62x54r and they walk alway either only bleeding or completely unscathed.

 

Arma 3 also tried to put Body armor into the game and the results have been disastrous the community by an large calling the damage model broken, and asking for the Arma 2 damage model back.

 

 

Anyone else feel they should make ballistic helmets, Kevlar vests, plate carriers and other personal body armor items purely cosmetic and not have any sort of personal protection and instead only be sought after due to their look and carry capacity ?

 

 

[leviski 2152]

From tests ive seen, the more items you carry the more damage you take, which is really stupid.

 

Along with that, all the Vests in the game offer the same amount of protection.

 

If what I stated above is true, that needs fixed because that's a terrible implementation.

 

 

And I want The armor, and the armor should cause you to take more shock damage than blood. Meaning you get knocked out instead of killed. 

 

This gives your friends a chance to revive you if you get downed in combat, Its so stressful to get shot in the legs 2 times and die from it, no knock out, just die.

Edited September 14, 2014 by leviski

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

I'd disagree, but only on the terms that it's realistic (aka; balanced). I doubt that you know that much about body armor, but for the record, it isn't some magical artifact that makes you invincible. Vests such as the Press vests and Flak jackets used by the CDF zeds are designed to protect against shrapnel, and are pretty much useless against most small arms. As with bulletproof vests, they're usually designed to protect against specific types of firearms. The lighter fare could probably withstand a few handgun rounds before the plate would be penetrated, but anything larger than a .45 would cut through like a knife through hot butter. Heavier vests provide protection against intermediate cartridges (7.62x39, 5.56 & 5.45), but only at range. Close in, the rounds still might have enough power to penetrate through.

 

Contrary to popular belief, you *aren't* invincible wearing a bulletproof vest. As long as they're done right, I see no sin in adding them.

[Katana67 2907]

Anyone else feel they should make ballistic helmets, Kevlar vests, plate carriers and other personal body armor items purely cosmetic and not have any sort of personal protection and instead only be sought after due to their look and carry capacity ?

 

Hell no.

 

The one thing that should actually protect you to some degree, and you want to make it cosmetic? No way, completely ridiculous just tossing the very notion of protection out the window.

 

Make clothes irrelevant to protection.

 

Make body armor actually useful. Make it rare. Make it a puzzle (i.e. find a SAPI plate for your empty plate carrier). Make it heavy. Improve the hit-detection (which is the real issue you're citing).

 

Yeah, Cap'n said it best. You aren't invincible. At all. A newspawn can still carve a hole in your face with a Mosin he just found no matter how much gear you've got. Or your chest for that matter, unless you've got a freakin' Mithril ESAPI plate.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Katana67

[dirrly 70]

You could be armed to the teeth with all of the latest and greatest weapons in the game but a single makarov to your face could end it all.

 

As long as they don't wear kevlar bandit masks it should still work if you shoot the face. :P

 

But seriously I agree with you. It's the feeling to be vulnerable that makes the game this much intense. So I also don't like the idea of plate carriers and body armor.

[GhostDivision (DayZ) 22]

To be honest, I don't know. The hit detection is so broken that I cannot even begin to imagine what sort of silly situation we'll be running into when body armour is implemented into the game... 

[Cpanther 221]

They don't offer as much protection as people think, most body armor is design to protect you against small ammunition or sharp objects like a knife...also even if they could stop a bullet, the kinetic force of the projectile will most definitely cause internal bleeding.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Cpanther

[Irish. 4886]

Why would anyone want to discuss this subject while the game is in such an early state?

 

..its like saying you dont want base building because there is already a ton of houses. 

[Katana67 2907]

Why would anyone want to discuss this subject while the game is in such an early state?

 

..its like saying you dont want base building because there is already a ton of houses. 

 

It's fair to talk about, because player protection can have real consequences on how we play the game... regardless of what stage of development it's in.

 

But the argument/reasoning advanced in the OP is just ludicrous.

[dirrly 70]

They don't offer as much protection as people think, most body armor is design to protect you against small ammunition or sharp objects like a knife...also even if they could stop a bullet, the kinetic force of the projectile will most definitely cause internal breeding.

 

Yes, but (if the plate carrier works) you can react after you are hidden. Think everybody knows this video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQi7iknSKy0

[sachad 1016]

Hit detection will eventually be fixed and working properly. Adding body armor would be fine. It'll likely be buggy as hell when it is first implemented, but that is to be expected. We'll have to find out the bugs so the devs can fix them. And as others stated, even heavy torso armor won't help you if you take a Mosin shot to the face. Armored dudes should be harder to kill than regular survivors, but by no means will they be invincible. Especially considering many people will equal being armored to being bulletproof, and thus be less cautious.

 

And to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't even mind having the possibility of running into some kind of heavily armored psychopath. Even like the Juggernaut suit from CoD. Provided they will be just under unicorns and leprechauns in terms of rarity. Imagine, some rage-fueled crazy dude in clad armor rampaging through Berezino, gunning down everything that moves until he goes down in a hail of bullets.

[hombrecz 832]

I am all up for having items with ballistic protection provided it is done right.

So it should be reasonably rare, there could be plates with various level of protection. 

 

If you got hit, you still should take some shock damage even if plate stopped the bullet.

You should have less inventory space and be heavier wearing ballistic vest.

 

I think this is the similar situation as when we are talking about machine guns.

Those would be interesting in game, BUT might be harder to implement, because without stamina system, loot economy (soon to come) and other tweaks, they would be overpowered.

 

I think same applies to ballistic protection.

Btw ballistic helmet is ok, when I got hit wearing it, it knocked me down to quite lengthy coma, so I would call that balanced.

 

What is far more worse is when civilian clothing is stopping bullets...

Edited September 14, 2014 by Hombre

[dirrly 70]

Then prepare for me threads like this, when the player you've hit 2 times in the chest still is able to get away. http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/210424-the-war-on-snipers/    ;)

[gibonez 3633]

I will conceed that it is perhaps unrealistic to have plate carriers only be completely cosmetic.

 

What about restricting the in game vest to soft body armor instead in order to avoid the Arma 3 fiasco with people being annoyed at the ridiculous damage values.

 

Limiting the ballistic vests in game to only Type 2 would work.

 

Essentially it would mitigate damage caused by anything smaller than .357 magnum but any rifle will penetrate it with ease.

[hells high 676]

I think those items should work as intended. One or two shots and the integrity of your plate or what have you is fucked, I think that should be reflected in the game.

[hombrecz 832]

I will conceed that it is perhaps unrealistic to have plate carriers only be completely cosmetic.

 

What about restricting the in game vest to soft body armor instead in order to avoid the Arma 3 fiasco with people being annoyed at the ridiculous damage values.

 

Limiting the ballistic vests in game to only Type 2 would work.

 

Essentially it would mitigate damage caused by anything smaller than .357 magnum but any rifle will penetrate it with ease.

 

I'd like to think that adjusting of how much the ballistic vest can stop, would be just a matter of tweaking.

 

But I do agree, that it would be bad for gameplay, if we had the situation like in Arma 3.

I totaly hated when I put 3-4 rounds of 5.56x45 into a guy's torso, only to see him twitch a little but nothing else.

 

If this should happen in DayZ, I think it would be terrible.

I also hope, that devs will remove/fix how the clothing atm absorbs so much of dmg.

It should absorb nothing, but when you get shot, it should also not ruin 90% of what you are carrying.

[gibonez 3633]

I'd like to think that adjusting of how much the ballistic vest can stop, would be just a matter of tweaking.

 

But I do agree, that it would be bad for gameplay, if we had the situation like in Arma 3.

I totaly hated when I put 3-4 rounds of 5.56x45 into a guy's torso, only to see him twitch a little but nothing else.

 

If this should happen in DayZ, I think it would be terrible.

I also hope, that devs will remove/fix how the clothing atm absorbs so much of dmg.

It should absorb nothing, but when you get shot, it should also not ruin 90% of what you are carrying.

 

Yea thats what I envision happening with the plate carriers. I see situations where military rifles and weapons are made rare and then you have groups of players with plate carriers roaming with impunity not afraid of any of the civilian armed players. Taking 6 hits with zero effect , zero blood loss, zero shock damage.

 

 

If I had it my way no item in the game would provide protection to the player to ensure everyone is equally vulnerable.

 

This goes for ballistic helmets also.

 

Ideally a fresh spawn would be just as vulnerable to gunfire as a veteran player with all of the high end gear .

[Legio23 82]

Yeah, Cap'n said it best. You aren't invincible. At all. A newspawn can still carve a hole in your face with a Mosin he just found no matter how much gear you've got. Or your chest for that matter, unless you've got a freakin' Mithril ESAPI plate.

Damn didn't know they made them ! could have used those myself :D

 

They don't offer as much protection as people think, most body armor is design to protect you against small ammunition or sharp objects like a knife...also even if they could stop a bullet, the kinetic force of the projectile will most definitely cause internal breeding.

 

So, not only do you get impregnated by something foreign but it 'breeds' in you too, where is Ripley when you need her...... Sorry couldn't resist :D

[Whyherro123 2283]

Yea thats what I envision happening with the plate carriers. I see situations where military rifles and weapons are made rare and then you have groups of players with plate carriers roaming with impunity not afraid of any of the civilian armed players. Taking 6 hits with zero effect , zero blood loss, zero shock damage.

 

 

If I had it my way no item in the game would provide protection to the player to ensure everyone is equally vulnerable.

 

This goes for ballistic helmets also.

 

Ideally a fresh spawn would be just as vulnerable to gunfire as a veteran player with all of the high end gear .

I think some people here don't understand how modern ballistic armor works. 

 

See, you've got a plate of bullet resistant material (the US Armed forces uses a ceramic plate.) All it does is stop the bullet from penetrating your body. You still receive the force of the bullet, with the resulting bruises, broken bones, etc.  And don't forget about deformation, especially with older steel plates. The bullet doesn't penetrate the plate, but it deforms it enough to cause severe damage to muscle and internal organs. My friend in the Army actually asked for a plate carrier in a larger size (looser fit) to avoid this.

 

Having a plate carrier doesn't make you INVINCIBLE. The plate will only reliably stop a bullet or three, and only past a certain range (I think my friend said his plates were only good when the shooter was farther than 20 meters) ,with the aforementioned aftereffects (concussive force, deformation, etc.)

 

So, you most definitely will not be tanking 6 Mosin rounds to the torso and keep trucking. The plates will protect you from a couple of AKM/M4 rounds, and you should suffer severe bruising/broken bones as well. That, coupled with the weight of the system and the impedence on agility, will make plate carriers very situational, in my opinion. If they weren't MOLLE-compatible, I probably wouldn't use it.

 

TL:DR Modern soldiers still seek/stay in cover during a firefight. The armor plates protect you until you get in cover, while giving you a place to store your gear. Plus, armor plates don't deflect bullets harmlessly, you will still feel the shot/get hurt, and the entire thing is going to be heavy as a motherfucker. There are lighter vests, but they will only stop handgun rounds.

[Cpanther 221]

Damn didn't know they made them ! could have used those myself :D

 

 

So, not only do you get impregnated by something foreign but it 'breeds' in you too, where is Ripley when you need her...... Sorry couldn't resist :D

Shhhh... obviously the R is next to the L in my keyboard...like every other keyboard, easy mistake to make. ... :blush:

[Whyherro123 2283]

Want to kill someone wearing a plate carrier?

 

• Ambush them from close range
• break their legs
• Use traps (IED, legbreakers, suspension lines, etc)
• Stab them
• Hell, just shoot them a bunch of times.

 

There. Done. One dead geared guy, with a bunch of ruined plates.

[gibonez 3633]

Want to kill someone wearing a plate carrier?

 

• Ambush them from close range
• break their legs
• Use traps (IED, legbreakers, suspension lines, etc)
• Stab them
• Hell, just shoot them a bunch of times.

 

There. Done. One dead geared guy, with a bunch of ruined plates.

 

Unless of course you have none of those options since this is of course a survival game.

 

This is not about whether you can or not kill someone with a plate carrier or body armor.

 

This is about the big question of should the game make highly looted players be able to absorb more damage than a fresh spawn especially when this was one of the core gameplay aspects of the mod.

 

Everyone being equally vulnerable was one of the core gameplay aspects that might be gone from standalone.

[ebrim 998]

So looking forward because this is all speculation... Clothes should stop offering any substantive protection. I don't have a problem with purpose-designed "armor" offering protection as essentially these get hit, get ruined and then are worthless (or the plates in them are rendered worthless and must be replaced). None of this protection stops shock damage but it does reduce the chance you get a nasty new hole. If you get hit with a large enough calibre, it doesn't matter how good your armor is, you're still ending up on your ass (staggered, knocked to prone/crouch, etc.). That alone will prevent any such situation where well armored people become invulnerable in any sense but it does give them a "second chance". Either they don't die immediately in the firefight where an unarmored person would or it just takes them slightly longer to die which offers more strategic options.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Ebrim

[Whyherro123 2283]

Unless of course you have none of those options since this is of course a survival game.

 

This is not about whether you can or not kill someone with a plate carrier or body armor.

 

This is about the big question of should the game make highly looted players be able to absorb more damage than a fresh spawn especially when this was one of the core gameplay aspects of the mod.

 

Everyone being equally vulnerable was one of the core gameplay aspects that might be gone from standalone.

And I counter this by saying that this "damage absorption" of which you speak isn't really all that impressive. It should only really work for a couple of bullets. And only below a certain caliber. 

 

Big woop. So, you can tank a couple (literally) of 7.62x39mm rounds (and only to the chest), with broken ribs and broken (read: useless) armor plates. Congrats. Now you need to go find more armor plates.... that is, if you survive the firefight, since you are now knocked on your ass, winded, possibly injured, and with someone still aiming down the sights at you. Now, they can shoot you in any of the unarmored body parts you are presenting; legs (bleed out in seconds) arms (bleed out), stomach (super-painful, internal bleeding), or the head.

 

Should ballistics armor work properly? Yes. Should it be worth the time to loot it, carry it, and break (get shot) it? From a practical standpoint, almost no.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Whyherro123

[Legio23 82]

TL:DR Modern soldiers still seek/stay in cover during a firefight. The armor plates protect you until you get in cover, while giving you a place to store your gear. Plus, armor plates don't deflect bullets harmlessly, you will still feel the shot/get hurt, and the entire thing is going to be heavy as a motherfucker. There are lighter vests, but they will only stop handgun rounds.

 

Oh that they are! with a full load out can get well into the 20kgs without patrol or full backpack. Our bullet proofs with neck and sack protection ( jugular and femoral protec) weighed around 15kgs without any kit on.