People's thoughts on hip firing?

[Bororm 1156]

What are people's thoughts on firing from the "hip" in DayZ (and a lesser extent arma in general)?  It's been my experience that it's much easier to spray guns and be even more accurate by not aiming down sights in close range engagements and even some longer ones.  This is even more true in third person (do not turn this into a third vs first person debate) I find as in general you can turn/move your character much quicker and control recoil much better.  Even in first person however, the difference is clear in recoil control as well as having a much less obstructed view of your target.

 

I notice in other people's videos a lot they fire from the hip.  I actually still usually prefer ads(aim down sights), but I generally don't use assault rifles or automatics, when I do I find myself starting out using the sights and then quickly switching over in close range fights.  High capacity mags confound this issue as you're able to go full auto for quite some time with little drawback.

 

Obviously there's still a lot of occasions where aiming down sights is preferable, and it provides more accurate fire when shooting more deliberately, but in general I find full auto guns to work best hip firing.  This is also something I've noticed in arma in general.

 

Personally I think a new animation should be added for "firing from the hip" with a larger recoil penalty, but I'm curious if people even think it's an issue and what their experience is.  I personally feel it makes for dull close quarters engagements that devolve into a too "accurate" spray fest.  Do you generally aim down sights or find yourself hip firing?  For those who play third person, do you find yourself shooting in third person quite often?

 

 

[huf757 82]

What are people's thoughts on firing from the "hip" in DayZ (and a lesser extent arma in general)?  It's been my experience that it's much easier to spray guns and be even more accurate by not aiming down sights in close range engagements and even some longer ones.  This is even more true in third person (do not turn this into a third vs first person debate) I find as in general you can turn/move your character much quicker and control recoil much better.  Even in first person however, the difference is clear in recoil control as well as having a much less obstructed view of your target.

 

I notice in other people's videos a lot they fire from the hip.  I actually still usually prefer ads(aim down sights), but I generally don't use assault rifles or automatics, when I do I find myself starting out using the sights and then quickly switching over in close range fights.  High capacity mags confound this issue as you're able to go full auto for quite some time with little drawback.

 

Obviously there's still a lot of occasions where aiming down sights is preferable, and it provides more accurate fire when shooting more deliberately, but in general I find full auto guns to work best hip firing.  This is also something I've noticed in arma in general.

 

Personally I think a new animation should be added for "firing from the hip" with a larger recoil penalty, but I'm curious if people even think it's an issue and what their experience is.  I personally feel it makes for dull close quarters engagements that devolve into a too "accurate" spray fest.  Do you generally aim down sights or find yourself hip firing?  For those who play third person, do you find yourself shooting in third person quite often?

I think firing from the hip is more spray and pray mentality.  I have employed this before with limited success (dependent upon weapon available at the time).  Of course with this strategy you are better served with an AKM with a 75 round drum then a mosin or sks. As with the more rounds fired, the successful kill rate increases.

Edited August 24, 2014 by huf757

[applejaxc 2500]

1: I think there's a time and a place for hip fire in any game

2: I think it's too easy to kill stuff from the hip. Even on "Veteran" mode (no crosshair), it's pretty easy, and sometimes even better than using your scope at long range. In ArmA 2, the hip-fire icon was OP as hell, in ArmA 3 it's at least a little bit more vague, but still too precise to be difficult.

[Bororm 1156]

I think firing from the hip is more spray and pray mentality.  I have employed this before with limited success (dependent upon weapon available at the time).  Of course with this strategy you are better served with an AKM with a 75 round drum then a mosin or sks. As with the more rounds fired, the successful kill rate increases.

 

My issue is I feel there's very little "praying" involved in spraying and praying from the hip in arma/dayz sa.  Recoil becomes easier to control, while the gun remains just as accurate (not saying that's a bad thing, there shouldn't be increased magical dispersion). 

[cartire 55]

If you are close to someone, and you have an auto, hip fire should be the preferred method. 

 

If you are further away, then ADS. 

 

Wait, Im confused.  Whats the questions again?

[Etherimp 1323]

If you are close to someone, and you have an auto, hip fire should be the preferred method. 

 

If you are further away, then ADS. 

 

Wait, Im confused.  Whats the questions again?

 

 

Yeah, it all seems pretty obvious to me...

 

CQC - Hip firing is just fine..

 

Anything outside of 100 meters, and you should probably ADS.. You should probably ADS as close as 50m out, for that matter.

[DURRHUNTER 597]

THE SPRAY SHOULD BE EVERYWHERE

[Bororm 1156]

If you are close to someone, and you have an auto, hip fire should be the preferred method. 

 

If you are further away, then ADS. 

 

Wait, Im confused.  Whats the questions again?

 

It's less about the specific scenario, and more about the mechanic.  It's easier to control recoil/aim and thus be more accurate while firing bursts/full auto by hip firing than aiming down the sights.  My question is whether people think it should be that way or not as it seems slightly counter-intuitive.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bororm

[Etherimp 1323]

It's less about the specific scenario, and more about the mechanic.  It's easier to control recoil/aim and thus be more accurate while firing bursts/full auto by hip firing than aiming down the sights.  My question is whether people think it should be that way or not as it seems slightly counter-intuitive.

 

 

The ease of controlling your recoil and aim is completely dependent upon your mouse sensitivity... Unless I'm not understanding what you're talking about here..

[cartire 55]

It's less about the specific scenario, and more about the mechanic.  It's easier to control recoil/aim and thus be more accurate while firing bursts/full auto by hip firing than aiming down the sights.  My question is whether people think it should be that way or not as it seems slightly counter-intuitive.

 

Yea, im still confused.  ADS is more accurate and easier to control when firing farther away.  The closer you get, the harder it is because you cant adjust quickly on a close moving target.  But thats kinda par for the course.  Hip fire is better in CQC because a quick moving target is close and you need a wider range of movement as they move around. 

[Bororm 1156]

The ease of controlling your recoil and aim is completely dependent upon your mouse sensitivity... Unless I'm not understanding what you're talking about here..

Here's an old video I made, it's arma 2 and was actually more about third person crosshairs at the time than the mechanics of hip firing, though in retrospect I think the issues are basically linked, since as mentioned it's not terribly difficult to get a feel for your point of aim without the crosshair any ways.

 

This video is more to demonstrate the recoil aspect of it.  It's a bit hard to get a "feeling" across from a video though, but in game there's a noticeable difference in ease of control.

 

 

Now unfortunately at the time I didn't also record firing in first person from the hip, but the problem is more prevalent in third person any ways.  You can hopefully see the difference in the ease to control the recoil and also the greater advantage of not having your gun obscuring half your screen or your muzzle flash/smoke obstructing your view.  Again, in this case I regrettably didn't record in first person, but it is still a significant difference.

 

If I had an AKM and drum mag currently I'd make a new video to better showcase what I'm talking about.

 

Also, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying there isn't a place for hip firing, I'm saying that the benefits of hip firing actually beat out those of aiming down the sights in some situations where I don't think that should be the case.  I know a squad mate who even hip fires at range on occasion to great effect.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bororm

[gibonez 3633]

The crosshair should be removed and free aim added making hip firing at something past 20 feet near impossible.

[Etherimp 1323]

Here's an old video I made, it's arma 2 and was actually more about third person crosshairs at the time than the mechanics of hip firing, though in retrospect I think the issues are basically linked, since as mentioned it's not terribly difficult to get a feel for your point of aim without the crosshair any ways.

 

This video is more to demonstrate the recoil aspect of it.  It's a bit hard to get a "feeling" across from a video though, but in game there's a noticeable difference in ease of control.

 

 

Now unfortunately at the time I didn't also record firing in first person from the hip, but the problem is more prevalent in third person any ways.  You can hopefully see the difference in the ease to control the recoil and also the greater advantage of not having your gun obscuring half your screen or your muzzle flash/smoke obstructing your view.  Again, in this case I regrettably didn't record in first person, but it is still a significant difference.

 

If I had an AKM and drum mag currently I'd make a new video to better showcase what I'm talking about.

 

Also, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying there isn't a place for hip firing, I'm saying that the benefits of hip firing actually beat out those of aiming down the sights in some situations where I don't think that should be the case.  I know a squad mate who even hip fires at range on occasion to great effect.

 

 

I just see that as inherent advantages/disadvantages of hip fire vs ADS..

 

 

At 50+ meters, ADS is preferable, but you have to control your recoil more to see the person so your gun doesn't obstruct them.. 

 

At >50 meters, ADS gets way too much in the way and is far too slow, so hip firing is preferable.. 

 

[Bororm 1156]

I just see that as inherent advantages/disadvantages of hip fire vs ADS..

 

 

At 50+ meters, ADS is preferable, but you have to control your recoil more to see the person so your gun doesn't obstruct them.. 

 

At >50 meters, ADS gets way too much in the way and is far too slow, so hip firing is preferable.. 

 

 

Thanks for the perspective, I was originally going to make a thread just saying straight up that I thought it should be changed but figured it may just be my own personal preference rather than a real issue.

 

I think there's room for improvement personally but I value yours and cartire's input.

 

I may go farm up an AK and a bunch of ammo tonight to try to make a more relevant video and do some more testing in general.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bororm

[soulfirez 901]

Here's an old video I made, it's arma 2 and was actually more about third person crosshairs at the time than the mechanics of hip firing, though in retrospect I think the issues are basically linked, since as mentioned it's not terribly difficult to get a feel for your point of aim without the crosshair any ways.

 

This video is more to demonstrate the recoil aspect of it.  It's a bit hard to get a "feeling" across from a video though, but in game there's a noticeable difference in ease of control.

 

 

Now unfortunately at the time I didn't also record firing in first person from the hip, but the problem is more prevalent in third person any ways.  You can hopefully see the difference in the ease to control the recoil and also the greater advantage of not having your gun obscuring half your screen or your muzzle flash/smoke obstructing your view.  Again, in this case I regrettably didn't record in first person, but it is still a significant difference.

 

If I had an AKM and drum mag currently I'd make a new video to better showcase what I'm talking about.

 

Also, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying there isn't a place for hip firing, I'm saying that the benefits of hip firing actually beat out those of aiming down the sights in some situations where I don't think that should be the case.  I know a squad mate who even hip fires at range on occasion to great effect.

Apart from removing the crosshair i am not actually seeing the problem. From watching your video it seemed to me atleast there was just as recoil in 3rd person as there was in first person merely when looking down the sights you can see it jump up and down more due to being focused in on it you didnt to me atleast appear to be anymore accurate?

 

Hip firing an auto gun at close range is a very valid method due to speed but with just the crosshair removed would make it less and less viable at further ranges.

[Bororm 1156]

Apart from removing the crosshair i am not actually seeing the problem. From watching your video it seemed to me atleast there was just as recoil in 3rd person as there was in first person merely when looking down the sights you can see it jump up and down more due to being focused in on it you didnt to me atleast appear to be anymore accurate?

 

Hip firing an auto gun at close range is a very valid method due to speed but with just the crosshair removed would make it less and less viable at further ranges.

 

The actual recoil is likely the same, the ease in control is the factor I take issue with.  It's hard to get across in a video, but it's micromovements when firing from the hip compared to "struggling" with your mouse while aiming down sights.

 

I do think the removal of the crosshair does help curve the "problem" a bit which is what the video was originally about at the time, but it doesn't really eliminate it.  It's an issue that becomes more prominent the larger ammo capacity you have as it's a matter of controlling the initial recoil and then keeping your spray on target.  LMGs having been the biggest issue in my eyes.  60 and 75 round mags in the SA are approaching those thresholds though which is why I bring the topic up now, as these things are becoming more prevalent.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Bororm

[R0B3RTF1SH3R 66]

to me. i always cant help iron sighting any weapon. but im not a fan of toggle. i like hold. but alas no hold. 

[soulfirez 901]

The actual recoil is likely the same, the ease in control is the factor I take issue with.  It's hard to get across in a video, but it's micromovements when firing from the hip compared to "struggling" with your mouse while aiming down sights.

 

I do think the removal of the crosshair does help curve the "problem" a bit which is what the video was originally about at the time, but it doesn't really eliminate it.  It's an issue that becomes more prominent the larger ammo capacity you have as it's a matter of controlling the initial recoil and then keeping your spray on target.  LMGs having been the biggest issue in my eyes.  60 and 75 round mags in the SA are approaching those thresholds though which is why I bring the topic up now, as these things are becoming more prevalent.

Ah i see what you mean now ( i dont play 3rd person ever really so i didnt notice it) the recoil is the same but the amount of mouse movement required to manage it is greatly different in 3rd hip firing little movement is all thats needed to keep on target and looking down the sights does require more and constant re adjustments... Ah well i hope they have some solution for that as it seems far more pronounced in 3rd person than in first person( hip firing in first person still requires a large amount of adjusting and if they removed the crosshair it be near perfect..

[chodeofwar 145]

COUNTER STREIKE !

[Bororm 1156]

Perhaps a valid question is up to what distance people think hip firing should be effective?

 

Etherimp has pointed out that currently it's around 50m, which for the most part I'd agree with, but do people think it should be further? closer?

[soulfirez 901]

I wouldnt want to hip fire 50m away (well not unless it was merely cover fire while moving to keep the target surpressed) IMO i wouldnt really like to see it effective more than 20 m but maybe i am to mean perhaps ,but i dont see many guys in real life hip firing at targets at 50m ranges (unless its from over top of cover with no aim at all or surpressing.

[Bororm 1156]

I kinda botched my test (wasted some ammo by accident), but it's not as bad as I thought it was.  Maybe my arma experiences were clouding my judgement too much, SA sway and recoil is different enough to actually make a difference it would seem.  At least with the AKM, it has enough recoil that it still feels comparatively hard to control while hip firing.  Honestly I think it basically has more recoil than the LMGs in arma 2 and 3.  I did seem to shoot tighter groups hip firing, but I didn't have enough ammo to make conclusive results on that.  

 

I'm still curious to test the ak101 and m4 as they have less recoil but the ak101 is less of a worry with its 30 round mags.

 

BTW it only took me about 30-40 minutes to run to the nwaf and grab an akm, drum mag, and about 4 or 5 normal mags on a mostly empty server.  That was also ignoring a bunch of ak101 mags.  Both ammo variants are waaay too common, but that's another topic.

[kakysas666 191]

Only noobs use hip fire, especially at ranges beyond 10 meters. Of course sometimes there is no time to aim properly, but usually I noticed only people in babycore servers shoot like that, and they miss all the time, because they use it at bigger distances. If an enemy is in my face, there is no point to not use hip fire so to speak.

[Etherimp 1323]

Only noobs use hip fire, especially at ranges beyond 10 meters. Of course sometimes there is no time to aim properly, but usually I noticed only people in babycore servers shoot like that, and they miss all the time, because they use it at bigger distances. If an enemy is in my face, there is no point to not use hip fire so to speak.

 

 

Just so you know, people who play on "babycore" servers, as you call them, often times also play on "hardcore" servers... And just so you know, people who play on "babycore" servers, some of them played the mod for a very long time and were quite good at it, and they play "babycore" because that's what the mod originally was... Also, just so you know, some people who play "babycore" servers were competitive counter-strike players that made money playing video games... on LAN no less.. Against some of the best FPS gamers in the world..

 

So please, instead of lazily insulting every player who plays on a specific kind of server, insinuating that you are somehow a "better" player for playing a different kind of server, maybe you should consider that it's just a matter of preference and actually doesn't say anything about someones skill level. 

 

 

Edit: In response to the topic at hand, 50m is probably a bit of an  exaggeration. I think 50m may be the upper limit of what I would consider "possible" to shoot from the hip at.. Basically, any time someone ISN'T in CQC with me, I ADS. Though I have been known to shoot even Mosins from the hip, just to make quick "snap shots" down a corridor or around a tree..

Edited August 24, 2014 by Etherimp

[rybec 339]

I don't believe a single person hasn't mentioned that there is no hip-firing in Arma or DayZ. Your rifle is shouldered, you're just not using your sights.

Of course it's fairly easy to shoot at short ranges without using your sights, you have a very good idea of where you're aiming.