Reconsider the AK-74 and 5.45x39

[stielhandgranate 480]

After the dev statement about not wanting to add the AK-74 because it uses the 5.45x39 round, I think it is time that they reconsider. There are several variants of the AK-74 chambered in 5.45x39 that would be welcome in game and fit in the setting. The AKS-74u, are personal defense weapon designed for vehicle crews comes to mind. As does the RPK-74, a squad support version that replaced the RPD. In game both of these variants could have their advantages such such as inventory space,rate of fire and integral bipods. This is game is set in East Europe and the idea of these weapons being absent in a crisis is very unseasonable.

 

Furthermore, the idea that new players wouldn't understand why these weapons are chambered in something different is an insult to their intelligence. One thing that draws players to DayZ is the idea of a challenge and a degree of realism. The game has several different blood types and intends to have several diseases in the future. 5.45x39 won't turn players away, if anything most serious, long term players will welcome it.

[AnyoneInCherno? 187]

After the dev statement about not wanting to add the AK-74 because it uses the 5.45x39 round, I think it is time that they reconsider. There are several variants of the AK-74 chambered in 5.45x39 that would be welcome in game and fit in the setting. The AKS-74u, are personal defense weapon designed for vehicle crews comes to mind. As does the RPK-74, a squad support version that replaced the RPD. In game both of these variants could have their advantages such such as inventory space,rate of fire and integral bipods. This is game is set in East Europe and the idea of these weapons being absent in a crisis is very unseasonable.

 

Furthermore, the idea that new players wouldn't understand why these weapons are chambered in something different is an insult to their intelligence. One thing that draws players to DayZ is the idea of a challenge and a degree of realism. The game has several different blood types and intends to have several diseases in the future. 5.45x39 won't turn players away, if anything most serious, long term players will welcome it.

Complete agreement. I've thought this for awhile, but never thought to put it on here.

[Katana67 2907]

Again, if your main argument is that "there are many variants of the AK-74 chambered in 5.45x39 that would be welcome in game and fit in the setting," they can already add those in 7.62x39.

 

It's not like they're losing out on weapons because they're refusing to add 5.45x39.

 

AEK-973

 

RPK

 

AKMSU

Edited July 31, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

It's not like they're losing out on weapons because they're refusing to add 5.45x39

 

 

But they are seeing how the AK-74 files have been complete for some time and not implemented. Does the community that was introduced to DayZ by Arma and it's true to life depictions of firearms now take a step backwards and get these weapons chambered in "Rifle bullets" while having to deal with finding type AB+ blood for their wounded battle buddy,antibiotics to fight infections and disease, and find spark plugs,steering fluid and oil for their GAZ jeep?

Edited July 31, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[automatic9 22]

But they are seeing how the AK-74 files have been complete for some time and not implemented. Does the community that was introduced to DayZ by Arma and it's true to life depictions of firearms now take a step backwards and get these weapons chambered in "Rifle bullets" while having to deal with finding type AB+ blood for their wounded battle buddy,antibiotics to fight infections and disease, and find spark plugs,steering fluid and oil for their GAZ jeep?

I agree. With the amount of realism already in, Why skimp on it with bullets? I want guns to have there correct calibers as well.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Petr Kozlovich

[Katana67 2907]

But they are seeing how the AK-74 files have been complete for some time and not implemented. Does the community that was introduced to DayZ by Arma and it's true to life depictions of firearms now take a step backwards and get these weapons chambered in "Rifle bullets" while having to deal with finding type AB+ blood for their wounded battle buddy,antibiotics to fight infections and disease, and find spark plugs,steering fluid and oil for their GAZ jeep?

 

Again, I can't comment on people who I am not... and neither can you without some serious polling of multiple communities (Twitter, Reddit, Forums, etc.) and nearly a million (I dunno how many unique copies they've sold).

 

You use these examples (blood types, antibiotics/disease, and vehicle repair) as if they're somehow indicative of a trend which should be followed explicitly. The developers are pragmatic, and they apply their development in the service of their goals.

 

They aren't losing out on any weapon types. They added the AK-101 because it was able to be chambered in 5.56x45. If that concession wasn't made there'd be two options - you'd have a named AK-74M firing 5.56x45, or, you'd have no AK-101/AK-74M at all.

 

And, again, I want 5.45x39 for pragmatic reasons. I just don't view it as a necessity. Nor am I going to make the non-argument that "it's realistic, so therefore should be done," when there's much more to consider when adding an item into DayZ.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

Again, I can't comment on people who I am not... and neither can you without some serious polling of multiple communities (Twitter, Reddit, Forums, etc.) and nearly a million (I dunno how many unique copies they've sold).

 

I don't have an account on reddit or twitter, however two polls on the forum (one in the dayz suggestions forum and one in the dayz general forum) ended in favor of realistic ammunition representations, however both polls had about 70 users vote on them each. Most debate was also in favor of ammunition for various reasons such as realism and game play.

[Katana67 2907]

I don't have an account on reddit or twitter, however two polls on the forum (one in the dayz suggestions forum and one in the dayz general forum) ended in favor of realistic ammunition representations, however both polls had about 70 users vote on them each. Most debate was also in favor of ammunition for various reasons such as realism and game play.

 

Again, 70, not even coming close to approaching anything near in the same ballpark as representative of a "community".

 

Now, can we drop the "community" bit and actually discuss the topic at hand please?

[stielhandgranate 480]

Again, 70, not even coming close to approaching anything near in the same ballpark as representative of a "community".

 

Now, can we drop the "community" bit and actually discuss the topic at hand please?

 

70 is a number of the community. To imply that they are not a part of the DayZ community is ridiculous.

[Katana67 2907]

70 is a number of the community. To imply that they are not a part of the DayZ community is ridiculous.

 

Hence why I didn't imply that.

 

I was implying that they're not wholly representative of the community, which is much larger than 70 people.

 

Do you want to talk about 5.45 now?

[stielhandgranate 480]

Hence why I didn't imply that.

 

I was implying that they're not wholly representative of the community, which is much larger than 70 people.

 

Do you want to talk about 5.45 now?

 

I would love to talk about the merits of 5.45x39, It is you that picks apart comments and words and invite derailment. 5.45x39 is one of the most common military cartridges in use in East Europe, it should be a entry caliber and the AK-74 should be a entry tier select fire military rifle, like how the Mosin Nagant is the entry tier civilian long range rifle. AKS-74us are issued  ground and air vehicle crews, it should be found near wrecks and be a common weapon used to be concealed in vests and backpacks when trying to fringe being a unarmed person.

 

One good benefit of the AK-74 family of weapons is the magazine compatibility, as magazines are rare at this state in the game, the game would greatly benefit from weapons that accept the same caliber and magazine.

[Katana67 2907]

5.45x39 is one of the most common military cartridges in use in East Europe, it should be a entry caliber and the AK-74 should be a entry tier select fire military rifle, like how the Mosin Nagant is the entry tier civilian long range rifle. AKS-74us are issued  ground and air vehicle crews, it should be found near wrecks and be a common weapon used to be concealed in vests and backpacks when trying to fringe being a unarmed person.

 

One good benefit of the AK-74 family of weapons is the magazine compatibility, as magazines are rare at this state in the game, the game would greatly benefit from weapons that accept the same caliber and magazine.

 

All of which could be done with 7.62x39.

[stielhandgranate 480]

All of which could be done with 7.62x39.

 

At the cost of over simplifying the game. With persistent store making it's way into the game, players can now store surplus of unneeded ammo until they find a weapon compatible with it. Also an AK-74 chambered in 7.62 is no longer a AK-74, but an AKM variant. The argument is as faulty as cambering an AR-10 in 5.56.

[Katana67 2907]

At the cost of over simplifying the game. With persistent store making it's way into the game, players can now store surplus of unneeded ammo until they find a weapon compatible with it. Also an AK-74 chambered in 7.62 is no longer a AK-74, but an AKM variant. The argument is as faulty as cambering an AR-10 in 5.56.

 

Seeing as an AR-10 fires a full rifle round (7.62x51) and the AR-15 fires an intermediate assault rifle cartridge (5.56x45), no, it's not the same. If we were talking about the SVD and AK, then it would be applicable. But we're not.

 

Moreover, I'm not fixed on the AK-74. I'm fixed on AK-pattern weapons, two of which we've already got... no matter what caliber they're firing.

 

Adding an RPK, AKMSU, and perhaps a modernized version like the AEK-973 (although I'd rather a bullpup AK variant) varies the aesthetic and pragmatic capabilities of the AK-pattern weapons lineup, without the need for another caliber. If we're talking from a standpoint of adding weapons. Which up until now, is all we've been discussing.

 

We're talking about two assault rifles, which are visually identical/similar in many cases, and have similar capabilities as far as DayZ is concerned. They may be different in real life, but they look pretty much the same in DayZ. I doubt the developers are going to dump art resources into making something that could be described as "just another AK." Especially if it requires the addition of a new caliber to justify its existence in the first place. And especially not when they've got a perfectly good caliber already that allows them to add a similar lineup. Which is why I don't expect them to put in every AR-15 variant under the sun either.

 

One's definition of "over simplifying the game" is subjective. I don't consider not including 5.45x39 an over simplification.

 

And, again, I support the addition of 5.45x39. I just don't view it as somehow a necessity, or an affront to what DayZ is simply because the developers choose not to add it. They don't lose any flexibility in the weapons they can add, when almost every 5.45x39 weapon has a 7.62x39 analog.

 

You could make the argument that it would give them a bit more variety in terms of actual ballistic performance of weapons should they add it, or it could allow them to tier the loot better, but the argument that it allows them to add a more diverse lineup of weapons which are needed/distinct doesn't really stand on its own.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

Seeing as an AR-10 fires a full rifle round (7.62x51) and the AR-15 fires an intermediate assault rifle cartridge (5.56x45), no, it's not the same. If we were talking about the SVD and AK, then it would be applicable. But we're not.

 

An AK-74 fires a distinct round, 5.45, not 7.62x39. The fact that neither are battle rifles does not dismiss this fact. An AK pattern weapon with a AK-74 profile chambered in 7.62x39 is not an AK-74.

 

Moreover, I'm not fixed on the AK-74. I'm fixed on AK-pattern weapons, two of which we've already got... no matter what caliber they're firing.

 

 

There are many AK variants in use across the world, right now we have the most famous and numerous variant (the AKM) and an export model from Izmash (the AK-101) that secured no overseas buyers and is not in use with any police or military organization. 

 

Adding an RPK, AKMSU, and perhaps a modernized version like the AEK-973 varies the aesthetic and pragmatic capabilities of the AK-pattern weapons lineup, without the need for another caliber. If we're talking from a standpoint of adding weapons. Which up until now, is all we've been discussing.

 

 

These weapons would have different ranges,weight inventory space,rates of fire and spawn points. Such values would be supplemented with a different caliber and thus prevent one weapon being completely superior to others.

 

We're talking about two assault rifles, which are visually identical/similar in many cases, and have similar capabilities as far as DayZ is concerned.

 

 

The fact that all automatic weapons behave like the spread gun from contra and are accurate to 20 meters in game leads one to hope that their values are a place holder and will be adjusted to work like weapons in ArmA at a later date. If all guns were to work the same way, then there would be no point to having more than one type of weapon in each class.

[Katana67 2907]

An AK-74 fires a distinct round, 5.45, not 7.62x39. The fact that neither are battle rifles does not dismiss this fact. An AK pattern weapon with a AK-74 profile chambered in 7.62x39 is not an AK-74.

 

There are many AK variants in use across the world, right now we have the most famous and numerous variant (the AKM) and an export model from Izmash (the AK-101) that secured no overseas buyers and is not in use with any police or military organization. 

 

These weapons would have different ranges,weight inventory space,rates of fire and spawn points. Such values would be supplemented with a different caliber and thus prevent one weapon being completely superior to others.

 

The fact that all automatic weapons behave like the spread gun from contra and are accurate to 20 meters in game leads one to hope that their values are a place holder and will be adjusted to work like weapons in ArmA at a later date. If all guns were to work the same way, then there would be no point to having more than one type of weapon in each class.

 

Right, but the fact that they're both assault rifles does. I wasn't saying that they're the same ether way, I'm saying that as far as DayZ is concerned, they're the same aesthetically and archetypically (as AK-pattern assault rifles). It would be as if I suggested adding an AR-15 in 5.56 and .300 BLK. Ultimately, what separates them in DayZ, would just be numbers simulating ballistic performance. They're both AR-15s.

 

Point being, we've already got two assault rifle rounds in-game. We don't need, although I support additional rounds, any more to do anything other than add variety. Moreover, they can assign other values to make individual weapons perform differently.

 

I'm also saying, that in order to add the generic archetypes (i.e. a SBR AK, a mag-fed HBAR AK, etc.) they don't need 5.45 to do so. They can do so just as well with 7.62x39. If they want a SBR AK, they add the AKMSU. If they want a mag-fed HBAR AK, they add the RPK. If they want a bullpup AK, they add the OTs-14-1A or AKU-94.

 

And now you're making the argument for performance and variety, which is acceptable inasmuch as it's not considered to be a necessity.

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

From what i can tell they aren't going to add the Ak-74m anymore and re-purposed the model for the AK-101.

I mean, the AK-101 is basically non-existent outside of factorys and gun shows. 

While if chernarus "Westernized" its military, which is highly likely as alot of Eastern countries are doing it nowadays, they probably would have converted their Ak-74s to 5.56 (Remember, they pretty much only used AK-74s) for NATO compatibility instead of buying AK-101s or M4s.

 

But no, we get the AK-101 and M4... 

 

As for calibers, 5.45 gets my vote.

What i really don't understand is why they added .380 ACP. It seems they did this just for the makarov, while they'll probably add a Vz61 (Nah, they're probably going to put a MAC) later.

Why? Seriously, 9mm makarov performs almost the ame as .380, and almost all .380 guns they might add have a 9mm Makarov variant, while the APS, P-64, ect, do not have a .380 variant. So why add it instead of Makarov? Probably becuase "Its to confusing"

 

Btw, it was .380 right?...

[agouti 105]

Like every game, the community will have to clean up the makers' mistakes. Just look at stalker, what a joke!

 

I'm sure modders will add in:

 

7.62x25 tokarev

8mm mauser

9x18 makarov

5.45x39

 

etc. etc.

 

Just leave it to the modders, and watch your community fragment into a dozen little pieces because you couldn't do it right the first time. :)

 

 

Edit: Also, Katana, you should be ashamed. The m43 round behaves nothing like the 5.45x39 round. I'd rather see it use the 5.56 round instead, even if it is inauthentic, because it would behave more like the 5.45.

Edited July 31, 2014 by agouti

[rybec 339]

Seeing as an AR-10 fires a full rifle round (7.62x51) and the AR-15 fires an intermediate assault rifle cartridge (5.56x45), no, it's not the same. If we were talking about the SVD and AK, then it would be applicable. But we're not.

I wonder how long it'll take before 7.62x54r becomes a thing when NATO battle rifles are implimented?

 

 

Also, you cannot say that someone can't speak on behalf of the community by saying they haven't polled a million people. Many decisions in the game can/should be made for the greater good as opposed to catering to people who prefer something easier.

I am entirely interested in multiple rifle rounds for reasons (avoiding playing the realism card) of forcing more decision making. Swapping weapons out because you've found a bit more of a calibre you haven't been using after expending your current makes for variety.

 

If we have all rifles chambered in maybe three different calibres, you're never going to have an issue of running out of your current required ammunition and can expend it all without having to worry about conservation. I enjoy seeing I have fifty rifle arounds left as it forces me to make decisions like whether I want to fight the group of guys I just saw, if I should venture to an airfield and hope to find what I need. Currently (of course there's little content so we're down to a few different calibres) you can find enough ammunition for your primary in a short period of time to not care and just magdump on everything.

[Katana67 2907]

I wonder how long it'll take before 7.62x54r becomes a thing when NATO battle rifles are implimented?

 

 

Also, you cannot say that someone can't speak on behalf of the community by saying they haven't polled a million people. Many decisions in the game can/should be made for the greater good as opposed to catering to people who prefer something easier.

I am entirely interested in multiple rifle rounds for reasons (avoiding playing the realism card) of forcing more decision making. Swapping weapons out because you've found a bit more of a calibre you haven't been using after expending your current makes for variety.

 

Not sure, Torchia has said that he plans on dividing 7.62x51 in-game up into 7.62x54R and .308 respectively.

 

I can, because anyone speaking for a community... without having any data to back what they're saying up, or, without having been appointed to speak for a community, has no business doing so.

 

Or rather, they can, but it doesn't mean anything.

 

I speak for myself, because it's all I can do. I cannot speak for anyone else because I don't have any one else's opinion, nor have I been delegated to speak on anyone's behalf. Using the "community" in support of one's argument, without having anything to actually back that assertion up, just reduces the efficacy of the argument.

 

In other words, it's a more potent endeavor to actually just... advocate for what you want... rather than operating under the guise of a "community" desire.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

From what i can tell they aren't going to add the Ak-74m anymore and re-purposed the model for the AK-101.

I mean, the AK-101 is basically non-existent outside of factorys and gun shows. 

While if chernarus "Westernized" its military, which is highly likely as alot of Eastern countries are doing it nowadays, they probably would have converted their Ak-74s to 5.56 (Remember, they pretty much only used AK-74s) for NATO compatibility instead of buying AK-101s or M4s.

 

But no, we get the AK-101 and M4... 

 

As for calibers, 5.45 gets my vote.

What i really don't understand is why they added .380 ACP. It seems they did this just for the makarov, while they'll probably add a Vz61 (Nah, they're probably going to put a MAC) later.

Why? Seriously, 9mm makarov performs almost the ame as .380, and almost all .380 guns they might add have a 9mm Makarov variant, while the APS, P-64, ect, do not have a .380 variant. So why add it instead of Makarov? Probably becuase "Its to confusing"

 

Btw, it was .380 right?...

It's really the other way around. Most 9x18mm weapons have .380 Variants, but there are FAR more .380 Auto guns out there than 9x18mm ones. They did .380 Auto so they can have the Makarov & PM-73 in addition to a plethora of other weapons. The fact that 9x18mm in text looks almost exactly like 9x19mm is also a small concern, but not the main reason.

 

Pistols:

• Makarov - 9x18mm, .380 ACP
• Stetchkin APS - 9x18mm, 9x19mm
• P-64 - 9x18mm, .380 ACP (In prototypes, but it's still possible)
• P-83 Wanad - .380 ACP

Submachine-Guns:

• Bizon - 9x18mm, .380 ACP, 9x19mm

Which seems more efficient to add? Keep in mind we can also get the MP-443 Grach (9x19mm), PP-2000 (9x19mm) and PP-19-01 Vityaz (9x19mm), which don't even exist in 9x18mm.

And some other .380 guns? The Vz.83, Walther PPK, Beretta 84S, CZ-83 Pistol, Beretta M1934, MAC-11, etc. Without .380 we'd get no Skorpion at all, since the regular variants are chambered in .32 ACP.

 

So is the realism really that much of an issue because we might need to sacrifice having the exact variants we want in order to get an overall better variety of stuff?

 

And on the AK-101, it was the only real option they had with the model, as they don't seem to have any plans for 5.45 at all right now.

They could've either; A] Added it as the AK-101, which is a real gun and uses the correct ammunition, even if it isn't popular, B] Added it as the AK-74M and given it 5.56x45mm ammunition anyway, creating a nonexistant AK variant, or C] Entirely scrapped the model. Which do you prefer?

[-Gews- 7443]

It's really the other way around. Most 9x18mm weapons have .380 Variants, but there are FAR more .380 Auto guns out there than 9x18mm ones. They did .380 Auto so they can have the Makarov & PM-73 in addition to a plethora of other weapons. The fact that 9x18mm in text looks almost exactly like 9x19mm is also a small concern, but not the main reason.

I disagree, I think they chose .380 ONLY because of potential confusion between "9x18" and "9x19". 9x18mm is used in more Eastern Bloc pistols and submachine guns than you can shake a stick at.

So there are more .380 weapons but so what? They aren't going to add a dozen types of .380 pocket pistol and as a military cartridge there are a lot more 9x18mm SMGs than there are .380 SMGs.

So only because of the name IMO.

[mike10019314@yahoo.ca 3]

I hope they add in the vss and vsk rifles as a rare spawn (crash site loot?) its an great "short range" sniper rifle /assault rifle combo

[a_ruttle 199]

It's not even like the community is asking for every calibre under the sun. Civilian weapons come in many different calibres, often designed around the weapon firing them, these weapons can be given a general ammo type, so for example, take Bolt action hunting rifles, one might fire a 7.92, one a .308 and one a .30-06 all rounds that perform rather simialrly as far as a video game is concerned, so simply stick them all in as .308s, then add 2 more large rifle rounds, 1 for western mil, 7.62x51 and 1 for russian mil, 7.62x54r [mosin rounds] do pretty much the same thing with all other weapon classes, 5.45 and 5.56 are all that's needed for ARs, add in a russian 9mm round [.380 is a stupid cop out, who cares if people confuse 9mm makarov for 9mmP, let them learn the hard way, this is dayz, it doesn't hold the player's hand] for russian pistols and call it a day on the calibre debate.

 

The devs have asked for the community contribute to the development process via feedback, why are they so reluctant to deal with all the backlash over calibres, If modders can add every calibre under the sun [and weapons to go with] to arma 2, it can't be too difficult to add no more than 6 new ones to the SA.

Edited August 1, 2014 by a_ruttle

[stielhandgranate 480]

I hope they add in the vss and vsk rifles as a rare spawn (crash site loot?) its an great "short range" sniper rifle /assault rifle combo

 

Adding 9x39 is a whole other battle, but one worth fighting for.