Ballistic Vest - What Should It Do?

[taco86 156]

"immersion" 

5.56 rounds are also not guaranteed to drop someone on the first hit, especially at close range where they over-penetrate.

Actually, 5.56 rounds over penetrate at mid to longer ranges, not shorter.  At short range the yaw forces are greater due to higher velocities rapidly increasing the fragmentation rate of the projectile.  m855 out of a 14.5 inch barrel is known to have fragmentation issues beyond 200m, 300m for a 20 inch barrel.

As for the potential capabilities of ballistic plates in game...  I'd like to see  the plates themselves be items that must be inserted into plate carries.  Both ar500 steel lvl3 armor and composite lvl 4 armor should be introduced.  AR500 should be very tough and capable of stopping many hits with moderate to low shock damage caused to the wearer.  Composite should be less multi hit capable however with lower shock damage.  For realism and balance purposes, I'd like to see the protection granted from using plates only present on the portion of the characters hit box that is covered by the plate.

[Evaris 61]

Actually, 5.56 rounds over penetrate at mid to longer ranges, not shorter.  At short range the yaw forces are greater due to higher velocities rapidly increasing the fragmentation rate of the projectile.  m855 out of a 14.5 inch barrel is known to have fragmentation issues beyond 200m, 300m for a 20 inch barrel.

As for the potential capabilities of ballistic plates in game...  I'd like to see  the plates themselves be items that must be inserted into plate carries.  Both ar500 steel lvl3 armor and composite lvl 4 armor should be introduced.  AR500 should be very tough and capable of stopping many hits with moderate to low shock damage caused to the wearer.  Composite should be less multi hit capable however with lower shock damage.  For realism and balance purposes, I'd like to see the protection granted from using plates only present on the portion of the characters hit box that is covered by the plate.

I agree on this.  And we should also see flexible plates of class II and class IIIa as well as the more common versions. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Evaris

[taco86 156]

Why not?  Seems like a good idea to me so long as all of the plates fit within all of the plate carries thus not creating some usability issues with larger numbers of plates within the loot table.

[Evaris 61]

Why not?  Seems like a good idea to me so long as all of the plates fit within all of the plate carries thus not creating some usability issues with larger numbers of plates within the loot table.

Maybe have a separate equip slot in the vest (or just an equip slot in the vest) which only accepts carrier-plate type items? 

[Lithium1056 45]

Well then if anything then it would simply need to come with a damage model tweak, right?

Yes, a damage model tweak is far beyond overdue and probably coming. The problem is while both actual damage resistance of a ballistics vest and the in game damage model rely on math it's hardly the same math.

And that's the problem video games always encounter, grab any other video game that supports "armor" it's nearly always represented by a HUD bar similar to health weather it's a segmented line or a percentile. If anything I feel like the current models in the game use far too much math. And that based on the ballistic helmet the "armor" uses far to little. (iE: are health is based on blood, shock, status effect etc, while the armor seems to be based simply on what it absorbed)

I think to truly be effective the vest should function should on shock. Don't know if you've ever strapped one on and taken a shot to the plates before but it doesn't feel good at all. So if anything ballistics vest should negate "health" damage but not "shock" damage.

It should be proportionate to the caliber and always result in a "knock out" this gives us a level of balance we need, it prevents death out right (nothing's going to stop the attacker from killing you while you're out cold) and still incapacitates the victim.

This is a balance I could live with.

^this will also probably get me trolled and flamed

[Evaris 61]

Yes, a damage model tweak is far beyond overdue and probably coming. The problem is while both actual damage resistance of a ballistics vest and the in game damage model rely on math it's hardly the same math.

And that's the problem video games always encounter, grab any other video game that supports "armor" it's nearly always represented by a HUD bar similar to health weather it's a segmented line or a percentile. If anything I feel like the current models in the game use far too much math. And that based on the ballistic helmet the "armor" uses far to little. (iE: are health is based on blood, shock, status effect etc, while the armor seems to be based simply on what it absorbed)

I think to truly be effective the vest should function should on shock. Don't know if you've ever strapped one on and taken a shot to the plates before but it doesn't feel good at all. So if anything ballistics vest should negate "health" damage but not "shock" damage.

It should be proportionate to the caliber and always result in a "knock out" this gives us a level of balance we need, it prevents death out right (nothing's going to stop the attacker from killing you while you're out cold) and still incapacitates the victim.

This is a balance I could live with.

^this will also probably get me trolled and flamed

I agree to a degree.  Type IIIa and type IV should stop at least part of the shock - they tend to be the categories designed to absorb impact, the former through being thicker fiber, the latter by being composite or ceramic based.  But type II and III plates should outright stop the bullets, while still transferring the full force of the shock to the chest.  Granted it would spread it to the whole chest rather than just what was behind it, so unconsciousness would be quite likely. 

 

So preventing blood/health damage outright, but not preventing shock.  It's fair,  balanced, and realistic enough to be authentic, and thus what this game aims for. 

[Lithium1056 45]

If they decided to implement multiple levels of armor and how complicate it's be to code then I completely agree, however I foresee multiple types of armor all with a standard level of effect.

Stab vest stops blades, ballistic vests stop bullets etc. but it could be nice if done right to have varied levels of armor

[Evaris 61]

If they decided to implement multiple levels of armor and how complicate it's be to code then I completely agree, however I foresee multiple types of armor all with a standard level of effect.

Stab vest stops blades, ballistic vests stop bullets etc. but it could be nice if done right to have varied levels of armor

If we added carrier plates, it wouldn't be that complicated if they were to simply introduce a item type template.  Sure the hard coding would be a bit more difficult at first, but it would allow them to add numerous types of insert plates, both traditional and improvised.  Like a cast iron stove door or something even. 

I'd say divide it up between Melee and Gun values, with bows and crossbows acting on the melee chart.  Each side would have a resistance to the different damage values in game, and should outright stop anything it is above, but each hit would cause it to wear to a certain degree.  What degree would be up to the devs, but it would be simple enough to plug in data from numerous real life tests already able to be found, though for type III armor they'd be best off using AR500 series plates if simply because of how well documented they are.  And so on and so forth.

[Lithium1056 45]

The only issue I see there is that's adding 3-5 new loot items per loot spawn. Also I think it would be fairly uncommon to find the plates just laying about. If they incorporated the plates into the vest (ie. Plates spawn in the vests) then It might work just don't want to see the loot system clogged in places of possibly more needed items

[Evaris 61]

The only issue I see there is that's adding 3-5 new loot items per loot spawn. Also I think it would be fairly uncommon to find the plates just laying about. If they incorporated the plates into the vest (ie. Plates spawn in the vests) then It might work just don't want to see the loot system clogged in places of possibly more needed items

Well yeah they should spawn in the vests, and then rarely (like as rare as AK magazines are right now, at least) found on their own in any place guns can spawn.  Is what I would suggest at least. 

[Lithium1056 45]

I won't bore you with my Magazine rant. If anything randomly finding a discarded plate in a "damaged" condition won't be out of place

[Evaris 61]

I won't bore you with my Magazine rant. If anything randomly finding a discarded plate in a "damaged" condition won't be out of place

Yeah magazines should be way way way more common, and guns somewhat less so.  Regardless, quite so, finding a random damaged plate would be fairly normal in a post-apocalytpic area. 

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

Why isn't in the game already? It was in the release trailer for christsake...

[Lithium1056 45]

Yeah magazines should be way way way more common, and guns somewhat less so. Regardless, quite so, finding a random damaged plate would be fairly normal in a post-apocalytpic area.

Empty! Empty magazines should be common. Also finding a firearm with a magazine in it. What the hell happened in Chernerus IMHO was they are the only country that didn't repel the zombie invasion because post ArmA II they found it would be safer to load all the magazines in the country and scatter the weapons elsewhere so when the zeds attack everyone died!

I exaggerate obviously but with as common as loose ammo is Id much rather find a pistol/assault rifle with a empty mag rather than a full mag and no gun the ONLY exception being the 75 round drum mag, magazines in worn or worse condition should spawn all over empty (as if dropped on the fly in combat).

Back on topic, that's my point though yes finding damaged plates every now and then so long as it doesn't replace any item that could actually be more useful to survival (medkit items, good food, etc) otherwise just have the pristine plates spawn only able to be "used" in a vest (can be stored in anything but doesn't physically add protection and had the same degradation rate as any other item if you're shot or hit.

I'd even be ok if they applied 50% of their normal protection if stored in a normal vest or coat or something like that maybe placing 2-3 in a normal vest applied a percentage of the protection if places in a ballistics vest. I mean it's still a ballistic plate right? You stick it in your pocket and I happen to shoot you in said pocket it's not gonna be all like "hey sorry bro I'm not in the right kind of fabric/configuration to stop this bullet!" But I don't think it should provide full value since it's not in the righ configuration and because "pockets" in this game equip to "global slots" ie: doesn't matter where it's at in your inventory it's only in your top left pocket over your heart because you say it is. And so shooting me with a plate in my pocket should assume it hit my at least partially IMHO

[Katana67 2907]

Why isn't in the game already? It was in the release trailer for christsake...

 

Off-topic and unrelated to your post, I don't want magazines spawning in any greater quantity (even empty) and I don't want them spawning with weapons. It is one more tool which makes the use of weapons consequential. Moreover, it's another objective in DayZ, which means it's another spark for a journey. Vice just wandering along and finding both a weapon and magazine in one smack.

 

On-topic, was it? I don't recall seeing this vest specifically early on. I recall seeing stuff like the press vest, but not this ballistic vest.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Katana67

[Evaris 61]

Off-topic and unrelated to your post, I don't want magazines spawning in any greater quantity (even empty) and I don't want them spawning with weapons. It is one more tool which makes the use of weapons consequential. Moreover, it's another objective in DayZ, which means it's another spark for a journey. Vice just wandering along and finding both a weapon and magazine in one smack.

 

On-topic, was it? I don't recall seeing this vest specifically early on. I recall seeing stuff like the press vest, but not this ballistic vest.

But what about guns with integrated magazines?  Not having the magazines be realistically accessible makes them a worse choice.  Take the sporter-22 for example.  Sure, it's easy enough to find in civilian areas, but the only, and I mean -only- way to get a mag is to go to a military base.  Not fun nor realistic at all, and makes the sporter-22 a gun you never see used in comparison to the mosin or SKS which have integrated mags and are used quite commonly.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Evaris

[Lithium1056 45]

But what about guns with integrated magazines? Not having the magazines be realistically accessible makes them a worse choice. Take the sporter-22 for example. Sure, it's easy enough to find in civilian areas, but the only, and I mean -only- way to get a mag is to go to a military base. Not fun nor realistic at all, and makes the sporter-22 a gun you never see used in comparison to the mosin or SKS which have integrated mags and are used quite commonly.

Incorrect! (Kind of) I find the 10 round box magazine all the time everywhere not just in bases infact it it's the magazine I find the most. Normally only see a couple of the guns laying around though and I have once seen a 20 round box magazine in a police station we made me cry cause I thought it was the MP5K mag. Only one time ever though have a found a magazine and gun next to each other (engraved 1911 and mag) on the back tower of tent city NWAF! Probably only found them cause I ain't afraid of no ladder!

[Katana67 2907]

But what about guns with integrated magazines?  Not having the magazines be realistically accessible makes them a worse choice.  Take the sporter-22 for example.  Sure, it's easy enough to find in civilian areas, but the only, and I mean -only- way to get a mag is to go to a military base.  Not fun nor realistic at all, and makes the sporter-22 a gun you never see used in comparison to the mosin or SKS which have integrated mags and are used quite commonly.

 

So make the magazines for the Sporter spawn in "civilian" areas? Seems like a specific problem with regard to balance of the Sporter, and nothing to do with magazines spawning separately as a concept.

 

You don't see the Sporter used any more than the Mosin/SKS because the Mosin/SKS spawn at pretty much the same rate as the Sporter, owing to the fact that the weapons/loot has not been balanced at all. Moreover, the Sporter is never going to be "preferred" over the Mosin/SKS even if it's made more common and the Mosin/SKS is made rarer.

 

In other words, it's not because they have en-bloc magazines that these weapons are common. They just don't spawn any differently than the Sporter, and are better than the Sporter.

 

Either way, en-bloc magazines have certain pros and cons. They come with the weapon, by virtue of being en-bloc. But typically have longer reload times and lower capacities. Whereas detachable magazines have larger capacities and provide for quicker reload times, at the cost of being separately looted.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Katana67

[Lithium1056 45]

Dude I find AKMs way more than I find the Mosin which is dumb as hell, they produced like 35 million if them most of which are still in thy region, finding a mosin should be as hard as turning left (for normal people not Zoolander) I do however think we need an updated spawn system for magazines! I've found butt loads of AKMs pistols and MP5Ks and 0 magazines, I don't cry about not finding speed/snap loaders or stripper clips cause I don't need that shit in my life, it doesn't reduce the number of rounds I can use to 1.

[Evaris 61]

Incorrect! (Kind of) I find the 10 round box magazine all the time everywhere not just in bases infact it it's the magazine I find the most. Normally only see a couple of the guns laying around though and I have once seen a 20 round box magazine in a police station we made me cry cause I thought it was the MP5K mag. Only one time ever though have a found a magazine and gun next to each other (engraved 1911 and mag) on the back tower of tent city NWAF! Probably only found them cause I ain't afraid of no ladder!

I have never in my type playing DayZ found a single .22 mag in any size outside of a military base or airbase.  Maybe you're luckier than I am?

 

So make the magazines for the Sporter spawn in "civilian" areas? Seems like a specific problem with regard to balance of the Sporter, and nothing to do with magazines spawning separately as a concept.

 

You don't see the Sporter used any more than the Mosin/SKS because the Mosin/SKS spawn at pretty much the same rate as the Sporter, owing to the fact that the weapons/loot has not been balanced at all. Moreover, the Sporter is never going to be "preferred" over the Mosin/SKS even if it's made more common and the Mosin/SKS is made rarer.

 

In other words, it's not because they have en-bloc magazines that these weapons are common. They just don't spawn any differently than the Sporter, and are better than the Sporter.

 

Either way, en-bloc magazines have certain pros and cons. They come with the weapon, by virtue of being en-bloc. But typically have longer reload times and lower capacities. Whereas detachable magazines have larger capacities and provide for quicker reload times, at the cost of being separately looted.

 

The sporter, when equipped with 30 round mags, does have advantages over the SKS and Mosin - it would likely be preferred in such cases by those focusing mostly hunting zombies, or those who can't aim to save their lives, where the extra rounds mean they can spray.  Regardless.  It's not realistic to never find a magazine on a gun, nor is it realistic not to find empty magazines laying around various places.  Kills the immersion.  And it's not like it would kill balance to have them around anyhow. 

 

 

Dude I find AKMs way more than I find the Mosin which is dumb as hell, they produced like 35 million if them most of which are still in thy region, finding a mosin should be as hard as turning left (for normal people not Zoolander) I do however think we need an updated spawn system for magazines! I've found butt loads of AKMs pistols and MP5Ks and 0 magazines, I don't cry about not finding speed/snap loaders or stripper clips cause I don't need that shit in my life, it doesn't reduce the number of rounds I can use to 1.

 

Seriously, how the hell do you have such luck, I've found a total of 3 AKMs, the two which required serverhopping to find, and the other I stumbled upon in some barracks when I was with some friends.

[Lithium1056 45]

Cause I'm a BEEEEAAAASSSSST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No really it's not luck if it was luck I'd find mags. Proof it's not luck last time I "opened" a door the server are my 75rnd Drum because It was full so I clearly wanted to reload. Lol

[Evaris 61]

Cause I'm a BEEEEAAAASSSSST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No really it's not luck if it was luck I'd find mags. Proof it's not luck last time I "opened" a door the server are my 75rnd Drum because It was full so I clearly wanted to reload. Lol

Oh god that happened to me as well with the only 75 round drum I've ever found.  Just.. why server, why did you eat my magazine?

[Katana67 2907]

It's not realistic to never find a magazine on a gun, nor is it realistic not to find empty magazines laying around various places.  Kills the immersion.  And it's not like it would kill balance to have them around anyhow.

 

This isn't something meant to be realistic. It's something meant to encourage depth in gameplay, in forcing the player to embark on a number of potentially unforgiving journeys just to get his/her weapon up and running. Likewise, it makes the use of a weapon consequential when it is more difficult to get that weapon running in the first place.

 

And I'm sorry, if one thing (especially something as inane as magazines spawning elsewhere from weapons) completely "kills the immersion" for you then that's an awfully absolutist approach, and I don't know what to tell you.

[Evaris 61]

This isn't something meant to be realistic. It's something meant to encourage depth in gameplay, in forcing the player to embark on a number of potentially unforgiving journeys just to get his/her weapon up and running. Likewise, it makes the use of a weapon consequential when it is more difficult to get that weapon running in the first place.

 

And I'm sorry, if one thing (especially something as inane as magazines spawning elsewhere from weapons) completely "kills the immersion" for you then that's an awfully absolutist approach, and I don't know what to tell you.

To me, it's just annoying.  It doesn't add depth to me, it just makes me toss aside most every gun in favor of a mosin / SKS and a magnum until I find mags once I go to a military base, and then find a gun in a building nearby anyhow.

 

It's not depth making every type of gun but two rifles and one handgun not a useful option whatsoever until you haul your rear off to a military base.

 

On the topic:  Also arrows are too rare. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Evaris

[hombrecz 832]

This isn't something meant to be realistic. It's something meant to encourage depth in gameplay, in forcing the player to embark on a number of potentially unforgiving journeys just to get his/her weapon up and running. Likewise, it makes the use of a weapon consequential when it is more difficult to get that weapon running in the first place.

 

 

The thing is, that Sporter is very weak firearm and having zero chance of spawning with magazine + having to journey into contested military areas to get one, is turning this rifle into absolute garbage.

And that is, I believe, plain bad no matter if from gameplay or realism sake.

 

Same can be said for pistols like P1 and CR75. Such weapons surely do not belong exclusively to military loot, those are firearms that civilians would own as well, so their mags need to have a chance to spawn in civilian areas as well. I could understand that FNX is ment as strictly military pistol, hence it's mags would spawn just there.

 

I do not see any harm in having small chance for said weapons (CR75,P1,Sporter) to spawn with empty magazine.

Plus their mags need to go to civilian loot as well and the sooner the better. This would actualy encourage their usage and make things interesting and variable.

 

Btw loot tables are unfinished and they will stay that way for a long time. Still moving spawns of certain magazines from military to civilian places should not take weeks of work and would enrich gameplay right now.