Scorped rifles need to go or become ULTRA rare

[Mutonizer 78]

every single zombie movie there are sniper rifles and bolt actions, there should be sniper rifles. There your logical relevant point

Which are always used a semi close range, almost never at 500m distance unless they are only shooting zombies, and even then, it lasts 20 seconds because it's boring. What happens is that despite these movies happening usually in a country with INSANE guns everywhere, people end up with shotguns and guns, and there's the social tension I mentioned: close range encounters.

The game is not designed to be fantasy. It is designed to be representative of the reality of a what-if zombie apocalypse scenario.

And of course, following that logic, it's very realistic that the first thing we should be focusing on as soon as the "zombie apocalypse" hits, is killing every single other humans out there. Because, you know (redneck voice):"survival of the fittest!".

Why not just go with that "realistic" thing that you like and say that these rifles are very rare in this part of the world. Problem solved for you and it's realist. Zombie apocalypse in France or Spain for example, guns would be very rare.

This mod...is in no way, any representation of what would happen if shit hit the fan, zombie or not. Not even close. It's a game, with a design purpose, period. The only "reality" you can put in game is pure physics and imagery, you can do whatever else you want with the rest to make it fit what you're trying to achieve. And yes, that means if laser guns and beam weapons would help, I'd be all for it (they don't though).

Hunting rifles have sights, fire bullets, and are fairly common to the average civilian. Saying otherwise is pointless and untrue.

Yea, and you live where? Oh sorry, but in most "civilized" countries, everyone doesn't own 20 guns, rocket launchers, mines, grenades and whatnot. In western Europe for example, firearms are usually very rare and strictly controlled and the average civilians would be in real trouble to find one, let alone use one properly at a 700m range on a moving target.

But anyway, made my point, no need to discuss with walls for hours: Make weapons with long range scoped very rare in order to improve the mod atmosphere. :)

Thanks for the chat.

---------

General stores having the protection of a gun - Sounds good

Farmer having a gun for hunting - Sounds good

Civilian having a hunting rifle, for sport or otherwise - Sounds good

Train station - Not so much but Ive never seen a sniper there

Whats the point that youre trying to make?

Sorry but that's only if you live in a country full of crazy people :)

In a modern society, people don't have guns, or very rarely.

^ it's a little jab but in good fun, really!! Dont get mad!!

[osme_oxys 9]

[text]

Where have you seen 20 guns, grenades, rocket launchers, and mines in 1 house? Because I desire to know where. Your argument is nothing more than you exaggerating everything and hoping people believe what you say. Are you saying that nobody in rural regions will own a shotgun or a hunting rifle? Guns arnt something you find in every house, they are fairly uncommon. A city has about 5-10 guns on a good day. Most of those are sidearms. This is a pretty rural region, not the surface of the moon were talking about.

[Shyoto 1]

Speaking as a player who hasn't died in... nigh on 2 weeks...

I live with my buddy in the middle of a forest.

We live on canteen water and a goat spawn.

I don't know what "tension" you seem to be lacking. Every time I load into the game, I'm tense from start to finish. I'm constantly terrified of any player I spot from 500m away. And ALL of my interactions with them are extremely tense.

Those interactions usually involve bursts of small-arms fire.

Note, that I said small-arms. Not scoped rifle-fire.

If anyone takes a moment to think this through...

You want Scoped Rifles to be gone because you don't want to get sniped from 500m?

So is it OK if I set the ranger on my AK to 500m, and use a 5-round burst? Being as we're in post-Cold War Russia, it's well-known that AK's are everywhere.

Or even better, if I just use the Iron Sights on my non-scoped bolt-action rifle, and just account for bullet drop, like any man worth the air he breathes has done since the invention of rifles?

By your arguments of close-rangedness for whatever the Hell it is you want to force on me for my Survival enjoyment, you want to limit gunfire to within 20m?

So,... Anything other than a Winchester with pellets, an M104, or any of the sidearms...

Because, you know, every other gun in the game is head-shot accurate at 200m, and body-shot accurate at 300m?

The only difference between the majority of firearms and those with scopes, is that the scoped weapons have a pair of binoculars strapped to the top. And being as how I have a pair of binoculars...

If you force engagements to within 100m, I will stop fearing other players altogether. Because, quite simply, 50 players on a 225km2 map... I will never, ever come within 100m of you.

[sorophx 25]

General stores having the protection of a gun - Sounds good

Farmer having a gun for hunting - Sounds good

Civilian having a hunting rifle' date=' for sport or otherwise - Sounds good

[/quote']

lol

wanted to write some stuff about statistics and gun ownership in Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus etc. but who am I kidding?

apparently Chernarus is a state in the US? otherwise you wouldn't spew out bullshit like "General stores having the protection of a gun - Sounds good". it may be the norm in the US, where tens of thousands of people are killed with guns every year, of course.

[Shyoto 1]

Also, the "goal" of a survival game, is most certainly not "to die".

It might help you out to make note of the number of EVE players that are attracted to the game. It's a sandbox, with emergent gameplay.

The idea is that you scratch out whatever living you can, you set your own goals, and you find your own enjoyment in the game.

If your fun is in dying, go right ahead and die.

Mine is in surviving, I'm gunna go right ahead and survive.

I also do make village and town raids on a regular basis, mostly just to check for sweet loot spawns. I never go into a raid without a clear objective of what I'm looking to loot.

And I also drop a mag into any other players within half a click of the town before I go in. Because I don't want to get close to them.

If you want a "Close-up Zombie Apocolypse Firefight of Death", I suggest you hit up Left4Dead. This is not the game for you.

[osme_oxys 9]

General stores having the protection of a gun - Sounds good

Farmer having a gun for hunting - Sounds good

Civilian having a hunting rifle' date=' for sport or otherwise - Sounds good

[/quote']

lol

wanted to write some stuff about statistics and gun ownership in Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus etc. but who am I kidding?

apparently Chernarus is a state in the US? otherwise you wouldn't spew out bullshit like "General stores having the protection of a gun - Sounds good". it may be the norm in the US, where tens of thousands of people are killed with guns every year, of course.

You find 5-10 guns on a good day in the city, and occasionally one in a barn. Its not like every civilian has a gun. I understand this isnt America, but 5-10 guns in a city (and that is on a good day, with a newly restarted server), 2 cities, mostly handguns, spread out among 50 players, who are forced to spend multiple rounds on zeds.

Not to mention that loot doesnt properly spawn if the server hasnt been restarted within what I hear, is 6 hours. Find me some servers that restart regularly. Or even servers that restart soon after a problem arises, such as when people cant spawn due to server problems.

Guns are not common. You search a 225km^2 and you should find more than a single gun in a rural region.

Also, gun violence according to you, never happens anywhere outside America. So remove all guns from the game in support of ultra realism. Who needs a playable game anyways.

[karbiner 29]

Never stand still if you are exposed, like standing in an open field n stuff. Always run and always avoind running straight towards big hills, since snipers take use of hills ±D

[sorophx 25]

we're not talking about finding guns. it's the type of gun that counts. the hunting rifle and the Lee Enfield, the AKM, and all that stuff you can find practically everywhere - it's too powerful and makes the game easy. people should be running around with pistols or shotguns (pellets, not slugs) in the first few days. a) it's enough to kill a bunch of zombies, b) it'll make it harder to kill others on the southern shores. this way we can at least make people fight for their guns. you want a nice weapon? go raid a military base. you want a sniper rifle? sorry, pal, the southern airfield has been looted a long time ago.

this is called game balance. there should be a curve. here's an example. I found a pair of NVGs on my first day of playing DayZ. it made the next couple of weeks trivial during the nights. thank god the tents were removed later and I lost it. but to think that there are players that didn't do anything to earn such a powerful item... wtf is wrong with you?

[Shyoto 1]

So, because you won out on Luck-of-the-Draw, the rest of us should be punished for an item that spawns once in every 2,272 spawn cycles, from one of only 12 possible loot piles?

NVG spawns are not a problem.

Your argument for moving longarms northwards will impact on gameplay even worse. What's to stop the bandits from simply walking north, grabbing an AK, then walking south back to Cherno, and laughing like maniacs at all the highest-level survivors with revolvers?

You're still going to be crying about being "sniped" at 300+m, except now you won't have a weapon to return fire with.

And removing all long-arms from the game entirely?

I can guarantee more players will want to murder Rocket than will thank him for it.

[sorophx 25]

You're still going to be crying about being "sniped" at 300+m

giggity.

snipers engage targets at 600+ meters. everything less is sharpshooting. in vanilla OA killing a person at 100-400 meters is very easy (especially if it's a static target).

anyway, I am not crying about being "sniped". I am "crying" because it's too easy to "snipe". yesterday my friend killed 7 people with an AKM, alone. he killed 5 from 200 meters, then retreated and ambushed the 2 that were pursuing him.

this is not how I want to play this game. and if nothing changes, I'll go back to playing TvT Domi or Insurgency, or whatever map is the fucking flavor of the week. but while DayZ is still in Alpha and its features are subject to change, I will provide feedback and will argue with anybody who thinks opinions that differ from his shouldn't be voiced

[osme_oxys 9]

You're still going to be crying about being "sniped" at 300+m

giggity.

snipers engage targets at 600+ meters. everything less is sharpshooting. in vanilla OA killing a person at 100-400 meters is very easy (especially if it's a static target).

anyway' date=' I am not crying about being "sniped". I am "crying" because it's too easy to "snipe". yesterday my friend killed 7 people with an AKM, alone. he killed 5 from 200 meters, then retreated and ambushed the 2 that were pursuing him.

this is not how I want to play this game. and if nothing changes, I'll go back to playing TvT Domi or Insurgency, or whatever map is the fucking flavor of the week. but while DayZ is still in Alpha and its features are subject to change, I will provide feedback and will argue with anybody who thinks opinions that differ from his shouldn't be voiced

[/quote']

So youre not crying about getting shot, youre crying because youre bind and dont look for anyone before running while standing up through an open field. If you dont like an open world map, dont play

Besides, that has nothing to do with scoped weapons. Or weapons in general. So why are you posting on this thread if your not part of it?

"in vanilla OA killing a person at 100-400 meters is very easy (especially if it's a static target)."

Go make an thread about how you dislike open world maps and how you hate arma then?

[sorophx 25]

Go make an thread about how you dislike open world maps and how you hate arma then?

what are you, retarded? that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying :huh:

на всякий случай, вдруг ты русский, с инглишем у тебя явно плохо: пушки в моде слишком крутые даются слишком рано. играть скучно и легко.

так понятно, клоун ты убогий?

[osme_oxys 9]

Go make an thread about how you dislike open world maps and how you hate arma then?

what are you' date=' retarded? that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying :huh:

на всякий случай, вдруг ты русский, с инглишем у тебя явно плохо: пушки в моде слишком крутые даются слишком рано. играть скучно и легко.

так понятно, клоун ты убогий?

[/quote']

Ok so. You say vanilla attack range is 100-400 meters, and a good sniper engages at 600+. True enough. But you complain that an accurate rifle, the AKM, can fire at 200 meters can "snipe" you. Sounds like youre complaining about arma 2 being arma 2, not scoped rifles, which are nerfed to a max range of 500 meters due to fog anyways (which is acceptable)

[SRTie4k 1]

It seems to me like most of you are thinking far too extreme. If scoped rifles make sniping people far too easy for anybody, why not simply change the accuracy?

I can speak from my experience in the US Marine Corps that just because a weapon has a scope on it does not mean it is zero'ed in well. Not only that, but a weapon which IS dialed in is done so at a very specific range, and does not account for huge variations in range outside of that range of accuracy. Bullet drop and windage play a HUGE role in determining shot placement at distances of 500+ yards. No scoped rifle is going to magically overcome the elements simply because it has a scope.

My suggestion on this matter is to make entry-level scoped rifles more inaccurate and more difficult to use. I don't know if bullet-drop is accounted for in this game, but making the spread larger at range shouldn't be very difficult.

[Nekosan 20]

I agree with Op, sometimes you have to overlook realism for a second in favour of balancing the game, I know that I personally always have a cz on me and a pile of ammo, why? Because i KNOW that at the ranges I can operate at I'm going to win an engagement.

I know some of you are crying because you think those of us who want the scoped weapon spawns nerfed are trying to "kiddy up" the game (that's rediculous) but just think for a moment about what lowering the availability would do, there would be a LOT more low-mid range engagements and firefights rather than half the map just hiding and sniping... isn't that a positive thing?

It would also make sniper weapons into "big ticket" items, things that people are proud to have rather than every scrub who has been in game 6 minutes having one. IMO it would be a worthwhile change just because atm the scoped weapons just outclass everything else.

[The Killing Joke 43]

I know that I personally always have a cz on me and a pile of ammo' date=' why? Because i KNOW that at the ranges I can operate at I'm going to win an engagement.[/quote']

I love it when people throw out these statements, and then try to draw people to their side. I'm sure you always spawn within 10' of your special gun, and I'm sure you're still running around with the same character. Congratulations, you've beat the 4h30m average life span!

I'm not for nor against the sniper nerf. I just love calling out bullshit when people post it. Do you really (really?) think people are that stupid?

TKJ

[Mutonizer 78]

It seems to me like most of you are thinking far too extreme. If scoped rifles make sniping people far too easy for anybody' date=' why not simply change the accuracy?

I can speak from my experience in the US Marine Corps that just because a weapon has a scope on it does not mean it is zero'ed in well. Not only that, but a weapon which IS dialed in is done so at a very specific range, and does not account for huge variations in range outside of that range of accuracy. Bullet drop and windage play a HUGE role in determining shot placement at distances of 500+ yards. No scoped rifle is going to magically overcome the elements simply because it has a scope.

My suggestion on this matter is to make entry-level scoped rifles more inaccurate and more difficult to use. I don't know if bullet-drop is accounted for in this game, but making the spread larger at range shouldn't be very difficult.

[/quote']

Thanks for the comment on this.

I was also considering this kind of changes also at first, but this would force Rocket to go too deep in things that are not directly, I believe, related to this mod and what it tries to be/do.

However, maybe there is a way to make weapons not be "brand new" and therefore potentially deficient or less accurate, etc. I mean, old russian stockpiles, owned by farmers for 30+ years. That got to take a toll :)

Oh, and bullet drop is accounted, I'm pretty sure of it, and the mechanism for precision sniping is there also, kinda (ie: windage/range). Might have been a mod where I saw this however.

Also, please guys, this is not about whining about getting sniped. It's a concern about the interest of it being possible for all parties involved, in relation to the genre the mod tries to simulate. Throwing "you suck" or "be more careful" and whatnot, isn't helping. The entire point is just that these rifles make the game less fun overall because it potentially prevents close range human encounters.

I'm well aware that some people LOVE that and spend hours and hours, camped in one position, for that one shot into someone else, totally unsuspecting.

But my argument is that this is contradictory with the genre, where all the tension is, again, at close range, unlike for example the base ARMA2 game, where it's all at long range for example.

It's just a personal suggestion/feedback in order to raise awareness on this, but at the end of the day, it'll be Rocket who will have to make a choice on the path going forward on this.

++

---

[..]IMO it would be a worthwhile change just because atm the scoped weapons just outclass everything else.

They outclass everything else, IF your entire goal while playing is to hunt players and that's quite limited. Otherwise, not many people uses them or really cares about them that much. When you have people focusing on hunting down humans using these, while everyone else focusing on playing the game in it's whole, not using these that much, you have a split in interest.

And since, from what I could find on this, the point of the mod is not a simple team death match on a 255km² map but something much more intricate and complicated, that's my concern, hence suggestion.

[b00ce 5]

I agree with Op' date=' sometimes you have to overlook realism for a second in favour of balancing the game

[/quote']

You're new to ArmA, aren't you? ArmA isn't about balance, it is about realism, and same goes for the mod; why else would you need to eat, drink and bandage yourself?

You lot seem to be lacking the third requirement of the game. Testicular fortitude.

Don't run in open fields, stay in cover ALWAYS because whether you think so or not, someone IS watching you. Behave like everyone is out to get you and you'll live longer.

[naizarak 41]

agreed, scoped military rifles and equipment just feel out of place in a game like this. emphasis should be on handguns, shotguns, basic rifles, and at the highest tier, plain ak rifles with very limited ammo. advanced equipment like nvg's and gps should be removed as well.

most importantly, the current weapon-spawn system should be redone to discourage ammo farming.

[shwat 3]

agreed' date=' scoped military rifles and equipment just feel out of place in a game like this. emphasis should be on handguns, shotguns, basic rifles, and at the highest tier, plain ak rifles with very limited ammo. advanced equipment like nvg's and gps should be removed as well.

most importantly, the current weapon-spawn system should be redone to discourage ammo farming.

[/quote']

Right, because there's certainly no military hardware in the country. It's not like there are 3 airfields (which all have zombies in military uniforms), military encampments at various cities (Balota, Berezino, Stary Sobor, at least), and wrecked military vehicles littered around the place. Dead soldiers? Obviously, they're dead because they didn't bring any weapons with them. :dodgy:

Everything in the game can be explained in a reasonable way (except for the zombies). If you want "social tension," you're not playing the right game. Maybe some RP servers will pop up eventually where there will be rules regarding power- and meta-gaming, RP etiquette, no shooting first/asking questions second, etc. Play those if they show up. Start one yourself, even. If that's what you want, the developers aren't stopping you from trying.

What we should not do is screw the legitimate playstyles that contradict with your personal concept of the genre. Lots of players don't want "social tension" at 20 meters because it's stupid and unsafe. You know why there's social tension at 20 meters in other zombie fiction? Because in the format of movies, books, etc. you need something exciting and dangerous that advances the plot in order to maintain interest. You're trying to take that scenario out of its context and slap it onto ArmA 2 where it doesn't apply. There is no plot in Day Z. There's no social tension when you meet another survivor at 20 meters, there's a simple decision: shoot, or don't shoot. There won't be far-reaching consequences or dramatic twists in the future because you chose to shoot a guy you bumped into in town. He's dead, he's on the coast now, and you can take his stuff. Welcome to the real-life simulator, where the ultimate goal is to accumulate stuff.

Day Z = gear collecting game. Deal with it.

[hexik 1]

CZ should be seriously nerfed. The guy that said that the most tension comes from 20m gunfights or interactions was right. Getting shot from 700m isn't tense, just frustrating. However 2 people seeing eachother in the same area with shitty guns deciding if they should fire or not, where to go, what cover to use, etc is WAY more tense. And currently as it is all the PVPers are snipers..myself included

[shwat 3]

Before a hacker came along and wiped out the entire server I was on in an instant, I had an M4A1 CCO SD and an M16A4 ACOG (which I dropped in a tent to pick up an M24 I found). I won't lie, the majority of my player kills came from the M16A4. Most of those kills were also under 150 meters, some as close as 10. Those are ranges I would be comfortable at with the M4A1 anyway. I picked up the M24 so I could reach out and touch somebody at the edge of the fog (though to my credit, I killed a guy with a single shot at 600m with that ACOG so the M24 is really just insurance).

What's tense for me is getting close enough that I can effectively engage somebody with my sidearm, positioning myself in an advantageous spot, and dropping my target with a single shot, all while remaining undetected. There's no rule that says the game needs to be tense and exciting for everyone at all times. Most of the players I've shot didn't even know I was there, and probably wouldn't have seen me unless they knew where to look. I picked up the M24 so I didn't have to stick my neck out like that, and so I could cover my buddies while they did their share of the dirty work. It's still tense for me. I need to have ultimate precision when I'm engaging targets with friendlies nearby.

It's not "fair" for the receiving party, but it doesn't say anywhere that we have to play fair with others. The only advantage we don't seek out in my group comes from cheating. If you don't want to deal with players that will do everything in their power to come out on top of an engagement, you shouldn't put yourself in that situation.

[harryzhe 28]

You do understand how absolutely common' date=' around the entire world, a basic scoped rifle like the CZ 550 is?

If realism is intended, it can easily be seen that having a plethora of CZ 550's is a fairly accurate portrayal of real life. I myself (living in America) own a total of 10 various bolt action rifles with scopes for hunting and target shooting.

It is perfectly plausible that in a post-apocalyptic scenario one of the easiest to get weapons would be a bolt-action rifle and on that rifle it is equally plausible to have a scope seeing as one can be purchased at a hardware store and practically any other store that stocks hunting or sports equipment in many countries around the world.

Just my two-bits.

[/quote']

My thoughts exactly. You can kind of tell who bought arma just for dayz and who already had a pre-existing interest in military/firearms.

[tkgwheeler 3]

ARMA is indeed a simulator intended to give a more realistic interpretation but that doesn't mean it has fully achieved it. There are some serious limitations in the way of that.

Yes it is likely that there would be plenty of scoped rifles in these parts but it is not likely that they would be able to see through the grass 300+ meters in front of them and have their weapons so easily set to fire at those ranges within a 5 second window.

So in my opinion it all comes down to this -

Given that there are issues which prevent ARMA from being truly realistic do you think that exploits of those limitation should be balanced in Day Z or simply left as they are in ARMA2 and accepted?

Also, what is more realistic -

"potentially" accurate quantities of a weapon in Czech Republic

or

All the inhabitants of that island having an exceptional ability to hit a target 300+ meters away aided with super man like vision when using scoped weapons.

[harryzhe 28]

OA does have an interface to adjust sights, i kind of hope they move to custom weapons which have it.