Armed Helicopters Are NOT Overpowered

[Caelum (DayZ) 5]

Decided to hop into this topic, just to say; If we get armed helicopters, I want a Stinger missile system. And I want Static Stinger Missile Turrets on the coastal cities. Think your tough mowing down bambis with your minigun? Have a missile to the face.

 

 

Secondly, as an upcoming pilot with over 250 hours in the air, about 50 of which were in a helicopter, I can tell you right now the fuckers are not easy to fly. Its not like a car- Theres so many things you have to be aware of when flying a helicopter its not even funny. I think that guy with the video got it about right- Though, I'm surprised he was even able to turn the bastard on. 

[Jex 1104]

what was once dead, is now alive again!

 

Sorry! :blush:

[Jex 1104]

So, having no real connection to aviation, I still know all that is needed for basic control of a helicopter. I'd still crash, but it's just one of those thing you improve at throughout the game. Much like sucking at handling a gun at first and gradually improving, flying a heli should come with a lot of trial and error. Stepping into the pilot seat should be a death sentence for a non-experienced player, and there's no arma to practice either. I'd love it if the entire start sequence would be added, which'd leave noobs on the ground  :lol:

 

In a ZA if you'd never flown a chopper and found one, you would NEVER think about trying to fly it.

[Katana67 2907]

There's a vast difference between the attack helicopters (i.e. AH-1Z, UH-1Y, AH-6, AH-64, etc.) and just helicopters with door-mounted weapons as was the case in the mod.

 

Some consider the very inclusion of something that flies, to be overpowered. I've never assigned much merit to that argument. The act of flight isn't, in and of itself, unfair in my opinion. And even if it were, DayZ isn't meant to be a fair or "balanced" experience outright.

 

My main issue with armed helicopters, and helicopters as they were in the mod, is that they were too inconsequential to operate.

 

Ammunition refilled automatically on restart, vice having to forage for ostensibly boxes of 7.62. It didn't take much to fly them. Their parts were generic, not all that rare, and interchangeable with parts from normal vehicles. Graphics settings could be tweaked to maximize aerial visibility. Objects on the ground, like tents and vehicles, were insanely easy to spot owing to a variety of issues (poor graphical contrast, a lack of camouflage options, and relatively sparse woodland areas). There were no volumetric atmospheric effects or weather systems to hamper flight. People could bail out with inconsequential given parachutes and deploy folks on the ground readily.

 

I have no issue with armed helicopters, or with anything really, insofar as they're made rare/difficult to operate/consequential to use. I have no issue with a clan being able to traverse the entirety of the map, raining death upon unsuspecting survivors, so long as they had to work for that capability.

 

Now, things like FLIR and pilot-controlled weapons, I feel shouldn't be included because of my own subjective considerations of how they behave in-game. I don't really like giving a single pilot or pair of pilots that capability. Utilizing an armed helicopter effectively, should be a marked collaborative effort. No one man should just be able to hop in a vacant AH-1Z and fly about with a full complement of Hydras. Which is why I think single-double seat attack helicopters are unwarranted, but certainly not helicopters with door-mounted small arms.

 

Helicopters are one of the most consistent tropes in the zombie apocalypse genre. So I also don't put much stock in the dismissive subjective "feeling" that they somehow don't "fit in the world of DayZ."

 

Likewise, the argument that our "characters" are somehow not capable of flying a helicopter, owing to their inexperience, isn't an argument that I consider either. We play as nothing, our characters aren't "characters" in the traditional sense. They're vessels, marionettes, and avatars to be manipulated by the player in demonstrating his/her own skill. We're not acting, or rather, the game doesn't enforce a background to our characters. We play as nothing.  Not 160th SOAR pilots, and not some brainless moron who doesn't even have a driver's license.

 

If they want flying a helicopter to be difficult, then make it difficult for the player. Obviously, folks are going to get good at it... because it's a video game. But they're going to have to invest some significant time in getting really good at it. It can be both hard to do and hard to master. It shouldn't just be plug-and-play.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Katana67

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

There's a vast difference between the attack helicopters (i.e. AH-1Z, UH-1Y, AH-6, AH-64, etc.) and just helicopters with door-mounted weapons as was the case in the mod.

Some consider the very inclusion of something that flies, to be overpowered. I've never assigned much merit to that argument. The act of flight isn't, in and of itself, unfair in my opinion. And even if it were, DayZ isn't meant to be a fair or "balanced" experience outright.

My main issue with armed helicopters, and helicopters as they were in the mod, is that they were too inconsequential to operate.

Ammunition refilled automatically on restart, vice having to forage for ostensibly boxes of 7.62. It didn't take much to fly them. Their parts were generic, not all that rare, and interchangeable with parts from normal vehicles. Graphics settings could be tweaked to maximize aerial visibility. Objects on the ground, like tents and vehicles, were insanely easy to spot owing to a variety of issues (poor graphical contrast, a lack of camouflage options, and relatively sparse woodland areas). There were no volumetric atmospheric effects or weather systems to hamper flight. People could bail out with inconsequential given parachutes and deploy folks on the ground readily.

I have no issue with armed helicopters, or with anything really, insofar as they're made rare/difficult to operate/consequential to use. I have no issue with a clan being able to traverse the entirety of the map, raining death upon unsuspecting survivors, so long as they had to work for that capability.

Now, things like FLIR and pilot-controlled weapons, I feel shouldn't be included because of my own subjective considerations of how they behave in-game. I don't really like giving a single pilot or pair of pilots that capability. Utilizing an armed helicopter effectively, should be a marked collaborative effort. No one man should just be able to hop in a vacant AH-1Z and fly about with a full complement of Hydras. Which is why I think single-double seat attack helicopters are unwarranted, but certainly not helicopters with door-mounted small arms.

Helicopters are one of the most consistent tropes in the zombie apocalypse genre. So I also don't put much stock in the dismissive subjective "feeling" that they somehow don't "fit in the world of DayZ."

Likewise, the argument that our "characters" are somehow not capable of flying a helicopter, owing to their inexperience, isn't an argument that I consider either. We play as nothing, our characters aren't "characters" in the traditional sense. They're vessels, marionettes, and avatars to be manipulated by the player in demonstrating his/her own skill. We're not acting, or rather, the game doesn't enforce a background to our characters. We play as nothing. Not 160th SOAR pilots, and not some brainless moron who doesn't even have a driver's license.

If they want flying a helicopter to be difficult, then make it difficult for the player. Obviously, folks are going to get good at it... because it's a video game. But they're going to have to invest some significant time in getting really good at it. It can be both hard to do and hard to master. It shouldn't just be plug-and-play.

My thoughts exactly, just a little better-worded :D

[Pandema 352]

ITT people assume "armed helicopter" means an Apache/Mi-24/Ka-52

And not a Huey/Hip/Blackhawk with door gunners.

[real meatshield 424]

Flying a chopper in ARMA is easy, whether with a fancy HOTAS setup that has joystick, pedals and a collective, or using mouse/keyboard. Being a chopper gunner can be easy too, but you have to be familiar with the platform you are playing on and have some practice to become good.

 

Armed choppers in this game would detract so much from the core feel. Choppers in breaking point are cool but provide a huge advantage to those who have them, and they arent even armed- and thats on Altis. Choppers on Stratis (which is more the size of chernarus)- you can own the map.

 

No choppers on chernarus. Ever.

[gibonez 3633]

Flying a chopper in ARMA is easy, whether with a fancy HOTAS setup that has joystick, pedals and a collective, or using mouse/keyboard. Being a chopper gunner can be easy too, but you have to be familiar with the platform you are playing on and have some practice to become good.

 

Armed choppers in this game would detract so much from the core feel. Choppers in breaking point are cool but provide a huge advantage to those who have them, and they arent even armed- and thats on Altis. Choppers on Stratis (which is more the size of chernarus)- you can own the map.

 

No choppers on chernarus. Ever.

 

 

Agreed.

 

No choppers or military equipment.

 

The new low tech approach and the importance that the players are not military trained personnel but just regular survivors needs to be the focus.

[mercules 1290]

Armed helicopters. Everyone has a helicopter in Epoch... eventually. You work towards it and you get one then you use it. 

What I see come from that. People almost NEVER use them as mobile gun platforms because it is hard to hit while moving, easy to be hit when not moving, and you have to loot ammo for them so you hate to load ammo and lose it on a server restart or waste it all Spray&Pray-ing. Most of the time I go for something that balances out speed, durability, and maneuverability.

The BEST use of a helicopter is simply movement. Getting from point A to point B. The problem is that solo it is vulnerable. You have to land to do anything and then even with locked vehicles people can blow it up or camp it and wait for you to return. Therefore the best use of a helicopter is to transport people, maybe items if you are fast about it. I like having one so that when a friend logs in who is a respawn or new to the server I can zip over, pick them up, and be playing with them in 20-30 minutes instead of 2-3 hours. 

Cars are quieter, but have to take different routes. Helicopters can simply go up and over, but then are vulnerable in the air. Getting the crap shot out of your chopper over woods and knowing you are going to have to bail and risk parachuting into a tree is hair raising. It's worse over water or if low to the ground when someone takes out your tail rotor. 

As long as they are tough to maintain I don't think they will be overpowered. I've hidden from so many choppers in the mod, it is silly.  You can hear them from miles away, find cover, and they will never spot someone on foot who is determined to hide. 

[starwarsfan@gmx.de 450]

I'd prefer it if we didn't get vehicles at all, the map is already small, heavily crowded and relatively quickly crossed. With cars the map becomes even smaller, but with that you mostly still have to use roads so you have to take indirect routes. With helicopters the map becomes tiny.

 

I just hope they increase the size of the map before they add vehicles.

[Pandema 352]

Going to point out to everyone complaining about a tiny map.

 

You run 30km/h on nothing but rice and cans of soda. Once they fix that, it's going to start feeling bigger.

 

Also, I'd imagine if they implement helis/cars its going to be like the original mod. Not Breaking Point, not Overwatch, not Epoch. There will not be a helicopter on every street corner and a working car under every street light. They're going to be rare.

 

Bonus edit: If you get out of those 3 cities in the NE, it gets a lot less crowded and a lot bigger.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Pandema

[Cullis 7]

Helicopters in a post-apocalyptic environment are a majorly fukken stupid idea.

 

They're the most maintenance-heavy type of aircraft. On average, a helicopter needs four hours of maintenance per each hour of flight. 

 

Furthermore, they burn an ungodly amount of gasoline.

 

Furthermore, helicopters being slow-moving are vulnerable to small-arms fire. Also, they generally use automatic weapons, for which ammunition would be very, very scarce. 

 

Which, again, is not being made anymore in a post-apocalyptic environment.

 

Gasoline also degrades within one to two years...

 

All in all, why not put in ultralights? For reconnaissance and crap?  Or motorbikes?

[real meatshield 424]

Going to point out to everyone complaining about a tiny map.

 

You run 30km/h on nothing but rice and cans of soda. Once they fix that, it's going to start feeling bigger.

 

Also, I'd imagine if they implement helis/cars its going to be like the original mod. Not Breaking Point, not Overwatch, not Epoch. There will not be a helicopter on every street corner and a working car under every street light. They're going to be rare.

 

Bonus edit: If you get out of those 3 cities in the NE, it gets a lot less crowded and a lot bigger.

 

Guessing you havent played BP mod for ARMA3. 3 helos total on Altis and all require not only repairs, but to be hidden well enough that no one can find them- because there are no lockable vehicles. No one, not even large clan groups, maintains possession for very long. Man, you can't even put BP and Epoch in the same sentence, they are so dissimilar.

 

Vehicle implementation in BP is quite well balanced for the aim of the mod. DayZ isn't BP, and should not have helos on a map about 1/5th the size of Altis. It would completely change the vibe of the game.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Real Meatshield

[Pandema 352]

Guessing you havent played BP mod for ARMA3. 3 helos total on Altis and all require not only repairs, but to be hidden well enough that no one can find them- because there are no lockable vehicles. No one, not even large clan groups, maintains possession for very long. Man, you can't even put BP and Epoch in the same sentence, they are so dissimilar.

 

Vehicle implementation in BP is quite well balanced for the aim of the mod. DayZ isn't BP, and should not have helos on a map about 1/5th the size of Altis. It would completely change the vibe of the game.

 

No I didn't play BP on Arma 3, I don't own it. I did play it on ArmA 2 though, and it was like every other shitty version of the mod.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Agreed.

 

No choppers or military equipment.

 

The new low tech approach and the importance that the players are not military trained personnel but just regular survivors needs to be the focus.

But what's a "regular survivor"? We have no background knowledge of any of the avatars that represent us players before they spawn in. To assume that it'd be impossible for anyone to fly helicopters because most people now do not know how to do it is a fallacious argument, at best. And it's not good reasoning to disclude something from the game, considering the flight controls and maintenance required could be very high. It's not like you'll be getting fully armed AH-64Ds up in five minutes after spawning in, it could take days or even weeks to get something as simple as a Bell 47 working on minimal fuel.

Flying in that would be very vulnerable, as even concentrated small arms fire would bring it down in a relatively short period. The only major advantage you're getting is aerial reconnaissance and a low profile, but it is costly and risky to use.

I see nothing wrong with having helicopters, the advantage to risk & work factor is not so great that it would be "overpowered" and they aren't at all out of place. Immersion is not going to be destroyed because someone can fly in the air?

 

Also, what constitutes military equipment to you? Plenty of weapons, clothing, and equipment that civilians would probably not have are already ingame, and it's not like all of the military vehicles would be inoperable or destroyed post apocalypse.

[gibonez 3633]

But what's a "regular survivor"? We have no background knowledge of any of the avatars that represent us players before they spawn in. To assume that it'd be impossible for anyone to fly helicopters because most people now do not know how to do it is a fallacious argument, at best. And it's not good reasoning to disclude something from the game, considering the flight controls and maintenance required could be very high. It's not like you'll be getting fully armed AH-64Ds up in five minutes after spawning in, it could take days or even weeks to get something as simple as a Bell 47 working on minimal fuel.

Flying in that would be very vulnerable, as even concentrated small arms fire would bring it down in a relatively short period. The only major advantage you're getting is aerial reconnaissance and a low profile, but it is costly and risky to use.

I see nothing wrong with having helicopters, the advantage to risk & work factor is not so great that it would be "overpowered" and they aren't at all out of place. Immersion is not going to be destroyed because someone can fly in the air?

 

Also, what constitutes military equipment to you? Plenty of weapons, clothing, and equipment that civilians would probably not have are already ingame, and it's not like all of the military vehicles would be inoperable or destroyed post apocalypse.

 

 

Nope just regular people not military trained and not avatars of the players.

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

Flying a chopper in ARMA is easy, whether with a fancy HOTAS setup that has joystick, pedals and a collective, or using mouse/keyboard. Being a chopper gunner can be easy too, but you have to be familiar with the platform you are playing on and have some practice to become good.

 

Armed choppers in this game would detract so much from the core feel. Choppers in breaking point are cool but provide a huge advantage to those who have them, and they arent even armed- and thats on Altis. Choppers on Stratis (which is more the size of chernarus)- you can own the map.

 

No choppers on chernarus. Ever.

 

So let's get a little fact-check going here. Chernarus (+), is 225 sq. kilometers. Altis is 270 sq. kilometers. Stratis is 20 sq. kilometers, not even a tenth of the size of Chernarus. 

Edited July 10, 2014 by Jigsaw115

[methr1k2dop3 323]

Maybe helicopters are a bit much, maybe smaller planes would be cool.

Also its pointless to argue how realistic it is for some one to find/fix/fly a helicopter irl

Edited July 10, 2014 by methr1k2dop3

[mercules 1290]

Just wait till vehicles are in and you don't run as fast as you do now. The whine will be epic and you will WANT to see if you can fix up even a crappy ride. I remember my friends and I finding BOTH ATVs on the map and hiding them. I am sure someone dedicated could have hunted them down eventually, but people were under the impression that driving an ATV would kill you nearly every time. I used to tear around the map on it and it was fairly light on gas. Because of that we had them forever and the great thing about that was that if one of us died, "I'll pick you up in about 10 minutes."


Epoch now has the Bell helicopters implemented and they are interesting to fly. Something simple like that might be nice as a goal to work towards. If we don't have something to strive for it all becomes a race to gear up, shoot people, and end up back on the coast with nothing else coming into play.

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

First things first- our characters don't have backgrounds. We can be whatever we fancy. It's called "roleplay", and it's some silly thing people ignore in favor of Berezino deathmatch. If I want to be a random joe, shure! If I want to be trained military personnel, why not! No game mechanic prevents me from doing so.

 

Rare military loot and vehicles should not be a problem of know-how, but of rarity, maintenance, and competition. Yes- you can go to your little shack in the woods, hunt rabbits, and be a peckerwood on your own account. Doesn't mean the game shouldn't also support teamplay! A armed chopper would be incredibly rare, difficult to maintain, and SOUGHT by every other loose organisation.

 

I've said before- factions should develop. After the apocalypse, people would band together, and attempt to control whats left. Why not encourage it, by rewarding sucessful team gameplay with an edge over less competent and organised groups.

 

thats wot i think

[Yenar 1]

Are you guys serious?

 

Wait till the choppers are released, then when you cant figure out how to down one or drive it off start complaining. But long story short, this is nothing but screaming hysteria at this point about what "may" be.

 

one last thing, I snipe man sized targets at 700-1000 yards regularly in the SA, a slow moving helicopter, 10x that size, circling a target location? Please, between me and 1-2 other snipers that thing would be toast in short order(or maybe just me with an svd when their released), or the pilot would be, meaning you get another crashed heli.

[gibonez 3633]

First things first- our characters don't have backgrounds. We can be whatever we fancy. It's called "roleplay",

 

But they do.

 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

But they do.

 

 

All he says is "normal people" and that they're not "military trained". The usual context of what he's saying they're not there as soldiers, but that's it. It doesn't mean that they have no former experience with combat, even if informal.

 

But even then, what defines a "normal person" is beyond me, because that's a subjective term. There are plenty of people in the military today, so I'd consider military service a pretty regular job. There are also plenty of people who have a good knowledge of firearms, a good number of doctors, a good number of mechanics, a good number of pilots, etc. I'm not saying that our DayZ avatars would realistically know how to do everything, but it's not like they're performing super FPS stunts and doing things that only a very small number of people know how to do.

I'm not entirely against a system where your character progressively becomes better at something with time, but that feels even more gamey than just allowing you to do it off the bat. However, if that compromise is a must to have some things that certain people couldn't do, then I wouldn't complain.

 

Either way, it's been pretty much confirmed that we'll have helicopters, so arguing about it is relatively pointless. If you really want to get something done at this point, your merit is best devoted toward helicopter mechanics and features:

Yes, they should be rare. Yes, they should be hard to maintain. Yes, they should be hard to fly.

Rather than;

No, they should not be in the game.

 

 

If they're truly assumed to be "regular", then you'd have to naturally make them terrible at almost everything, because the majority of people on Earth never use guns, the majority of people on Earth never drive, the majority of people on Earth never have medical experience, hell, the majority of people on Earth aren't alive.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[BadAsh (DayZ) 1513]

Epoch now has the Bell helicopters implemented and they are interesting to fly. Something simple like that might be nice as a goal to work towards. If we don't have something to strive for it all becomes a race to gear up, shoot people, and end up back on the coast with nothing else coming into play.

 

We can strive for the SA never to become anything like Epoch.

[agentneo 337]

quarter 4 what do you mean we still don't have half the things from quarter2 ?!those time scales are missed by miles