High-End Loot - How You Learned How to Stop Worrying and Love the Mk 48

[Katana67 2907]

Now that we've got the helicopter crashes back in the game, I thought it'd be a good time to discuss that seemingly taboo topic of "high-end" loot. Assume that when I say that term from here on, it's in quotations, due to its highly subjective nature.

 

It has been established that DayZ, or more specifically Chernarus+, continues off of the circumstances expressed in ARMA II. Which would undoubtedly provide for a plethora of high-end gear for our humble survivor avatars to collect. Even without that fictional precedent, it can and should be argued from a development perspective that high-end loot becomes necessary in order to act as (one of many) a factor in driving player mobility. Moreover, even from a "realistic" perspective, the presence of high-end military gear in a so-called Eastern Bloc country is nothing out of the ordinary these days.

 

That and we're already seeing a sliver of what could be considered high-end loot as manifested in the M4A1, FNX, AKM, and respective attachments. Likewise, high-end gear is not confined to just weapons. There's plenty of decent "military" gear, which I assume most could deem "high-end" present already.

 

So now that the issue of high-end loot's "place" in DayZ has been settled, cemented, and vindicated once and for all...

 

But... Mr. Katana, sir... I don't...

 

 

We can begin a reasoned discussion of how high-end loot can, should, and may affect gameplay.

 

Obviously, I'm not going to crawl all the way across Chernarus just to snag me a humdrum M4A1 which offers no real tangible benefits over say... an AKM... or an SVD... or even a humble SKS. Likewise, I don't want to see something as inane as an AKM or M4A1 being the top-shelf-dope-shit-best-gun-in-the-game.

 

Which brings me to the main crux of what prompted me to create this thread...

 

High-end loot has to actually offer a tangible advantage over so-called "low-end" and/or "mid-tier" loot.

 

So, what're we left with? The precedent set by the mod, of a variety of so-called "high-end" loot items which helped drive many player interactions and player journeys. Now, I should say that I don't believe high-end loot can or should be the only source of attraction across the map. Survival needs and limited resources can also act as potential journeys unto themselves, but that discussion is for another day.

 

Light Machine Guns (LMGs) and/or General Purpose Machine Guns (GPMGs), dedicated bolt-action sniper rifles, battle rifles (BRs), designated marksman rifles (DMRs), semi-automatic shotguns, high-capacity sub-machine guns (SMGs). On the gear side, we have things like GPSs, NVGs, plate carriers, etc.

 

Anti-materiel rifles are out, as per Matt's statement way the hell back at E3 2013 (or Gamescom) that they will not be included.

 

Likewise, the planned "loot management" system may indeed segment the distribution of high-end loot as to be a bit more balanced (I know some of you tremble in your boots at the thought of an M107, or even a humble M14).

 

What are your thoughts on the matter, how would you like "high-end" loot approached in DayZ?

 

TL:DR

 

- High-end loot is here to stay

- It can act as a potent factor in player movement and migration

- The "loot management" system and other practical tweaks should assuage your concerns of things being "overpowered"

- High-end loot has to actually offer an advantage over low-mid tier loot

 

DISCLAIMER - This is not the place to discuss the merits of "high-end" loot, or whether or not it should be implemented. It's the place to discuss its implementation, approaches to this implementation, and consequences of said implementation.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Katana67

[Hetstaine 10852]

Rare.

 

Max 1 top tier gun per server per restart. 

 

edit- Remember,once we get vehicles you can get around the map and hit high tier locations super quick.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Hetstaine

[Katana67 2907]

Rare.

 

Max 1 top tier gun per server per restart. 

 

edit- Remember,once we get vehicles you can get around the map and hit high tier locations super quick.

 

That assumes that vehicles themselves aren't rare and/or difficult to get up and running. Likewise, it assumes that travel is inconsequential (see the "limited resources" bit above, which could mean limited fuel resources as well).

 

I think a discussion needs to be had on what should be in the controlled, limited, "loot management" system. Because I'm not convinced that most of the weapons that were so-called "high-end" in DayZ mod, warrant artificial limitation.

 

In other words, take the DMR. I don't think, especially now that weapons come separately from magazines and optics (which is a whole different rarity balance ballgame) that something like a semi-automatic BR/DMR needs to be regulated. Because it may not confer that huge of an advantage over something like a scoped Mosin.

 

However, something like a .338 LM sniper rifle... or a pair of NVGs... or a GPMG... I could see the case being more apparent for those types of items being regulated.

[gibonez 3633]

There is nothing taboo about high end gear.

 

I just think people need to look at high end gear in a different manner than they have in the past or even in the mod.

 

I think high end gear the highest of high will essentially be things such as the SVD that will be coming soon the pkm and perhaps heavy weapons such as truck mounted spg9s and 50 cal mgs.

 

I doubt we will be seeing really obscure western high end guns in stand alone doubt we will be getting anything like an m14 ebr or a fn scar.

[Hetstaine 10852]

Just taking my two sessions last night as an example of why i would like high tier to be very rare. Spawned in with a new char. First session, 1 x M4 and 1 x AKM. 2 x acog for M4, two times 40 mag. 2 X 30 MAG FOR akm, PS0 scope. Second session found another M4 which i kitted out and left outside a barracks with a note, found another AKM and two 30 mags. Needless to say before the end of my first session i was healthy and had everything possibly needed to go and kick back and rack up the days in the forest and twiddle my thumbs. 

[gibonez 3633]

Just taking my two sessions last night as an example of why i would like high tier to be very rare. Spawned in with a new char. First session, 1 x M4 and 1 x AKM. 2 x acog for M4, two times 40 mag. 2 X 30 MAG FOR akm, PS0 scope. Second session found another M4 which i kitted out and left outside a barracks with a note, found another AKM and two 30 mags. Needless to say before the end of my first session i was healthy and had everything possibly needed to go and kick back and rack up the days in the forest and twiddle my thumbs. 

 

Yea the rarity I am sure will increase as time goes on.

 

The game already has 2 ultra high end loot weapons.

 

 

If that is not high end I don't know what is.

[blazinone 72]

It sounds like you described the only practical way to handle high end loot. Items should be very rare and only found in specific areas. And some items have additional rarity by virtue of the attachment system as mentioned. This has been the template so far and I don't know if there are any other ways to implement it.

Things like a gillie suit or night vision goggles clearly have an advantage over standard camo or headlamps and thus qualify as high end and very rare. I think you may be splitting hairs a bit when it comes to which firearms should be rare/high end and which should be common, but everything else makes sense.

And speaking of vehicles, things like working batteries and good tires I see as being high end whereas vehicles themselves might be common. Not sure how that worked in the mod.

[Katana67 2907]

Just taking my two sessions last night as an example of why i would like high tier to be very rare. Spawned in with a new char. First session, 1 x M4 and 1 x AKM. 2 x acog for M4, two times 40 mag. 2 X 30 MAG FOR akm, PS0 scope. Second session found another M4 which i kitted out and left outside a barracks with a note, found another AKM and two 30 mags. Needless to say before the end of my first session i was healthy and had everything possibly needed to go and kick back and rack up the days in the forest and twiddle my thumbs. 

 

Right, and I agree about the rarity bit. But I think we need to have a discussion about what constitutes "high-end" vice just "geared."

 

Because in the mod, an AKM or a kitted M4 was nothing to write home about. Partially because there were other, better, weapons out there. And partially (here's where it's relevant to the standalone) because they weren't overly good by comparison to their low-end counterparts.

 

In other words, I wouldn't really feel at a disadvantage getting into a fight with someone with an M4 if I had a SMLE in the mod. I could still drop them most of the time.

 

The same thing applies to the standalone. I don't feel at a disadvantage (in fact, I feel advantaged as it stands now) rolling up against someone with an M4 with an SKS or Mosin.

 

So making something worse (or at best, the same), rarer, doesn't make any sense to me (as has been done with the helicopter crashes, granted, for testing). However, if the rare weapons were actually good and conferred capability to those who wield them, then I could justify them being rare.

 

It sounds like you described the only practical way to handle high end loot. Items should be very rare and only found in specific areas. And some items have additional rarity by virtue of the attachment system as mentioned. This has been the template so far and I don't know if there are any other ways to implement it.

Things like a gillie suit or night vision goggles clearly have an advantage over standard camo or headlamps and thus qualify as high end and very rare. I think you may be splitting hairs a bit when it comes to which firearms should be rare/high end and which should be common, but everything else makes sense.

And speaking of vehicles, things like working batteries and good tires I see as being high end whereas vehicles themselves might be common. Not sure how that worked in the mod.

 

What I meant by different approach, is that some people consider an AK or an AR as "high-end."

 

I don't. Mostly because these weapons, just as concepts, are not justified as being "high-end" just by virtue of being assault rifles. They don't offer any real tangible advantages versus something like an SKS or Mosin in-game. In fact, I'd submit that the SKS and Mosin are probably the best guns in the game as it stands currently.

 

I think we can all agree that high-end loot should be, and probably will be, rare. I don't think there's an argument to be made to the contrary.

 

But, what constitutes "high-end" in terms of DayZ needs to be clarified. And I don't salivate over any of the weapons we've got now, enough to traverse the entire map looking for one like I did with the mod.

 

There was a much larger gap between low-mid tier weapons/loot and high-end weapons/loot in the mod, and that gap has been made smaller in the standalone (by virtue of having no discernible "high-end" loot).

 

Point being, we need more "high-end" loot. The M4 can't be the only weapon spawning at a helicopter crash in the future. I don't envision folks combing through the map just to find an M4 as the pinnacle of "high-end" loot in DayZ, we'll need something more.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Katana67

[hotcakes 348]

Some thoughts I have. There are mimaxed loadouts that have a bullet-to-kill count of around 10 shots of intermediate cartridges. There's also a way to survive 7.62x51mm headshots.

There's a high-end, but it's not really obvious yet.

[Hetstaine 10852]

Right, and I agree about the rarity bit. But I think we need to have a discussion about what constitutes "high-end" vice just "geared."

 

Because in the mod, an AKM or a kitted M4 was nothing to write home about. Partially because there were other, better, weapons out there. And partially (here's where it's relevant to the standalone) because they weren't overly good by comparison to their low-end counterparts.

 

In other words, I wouldn't really feel at a disadvantage getting into a fight with someone with an M4 if I had a SMLE in the mod. I could still drop them most of the time.

 

The same thing applies to the standalone. I don't feel at a disadvantage (in fact, I fell advantaged as it stands now) rolling up against someone with an M4 with an SKS or Mosin.

 

So making something worse (or at best, the same), rarer, doesn't make any sense to me (as has been done with the helicopter crashes, granted, for testing). However, if the rare weapons were actually good and conferred capability to those who wield them, then I could justify them being rare.

 

 

What I meant by different approach, is that some people consider an AK or an AR as "high-end."

 

I don't. Mostly because these weapons, just as concepts, are not justified as being "high-end" just by virtue of being assault rifles. They don't offer any real tangible advantages versus something like an SKS or Mosin in-game. In fact, I'd submit that the SKS and Mosin are probably the best guns in the game as it stands currently.

 

I think we can all agree that high-end loot should be, and probably will be, rare. I don't think there's an argument to be made to the contrary.

 

But, what constitutes "high-end" in terms of DayZ needs to be clarified. And I don't salivate over any of the weapons we've got now, enough to traverse the entire map looking for one like I did with the mod.

 

There was a much larger gap between low-mid tier weapons/loot and high-end weapons/loot in the mod, and that gap has been made smaller in the standalone (by virtue of having no discernible "high-end" loot).

 

Point being, we need more "high-end" loot. The M4 can't be the only weapon spawning at a helicopter crash in the future. I don't envision folks combing through the map just to find an M4 as the pinnacle of "high-end" loot in DayZ, we'll need something more.

 

 

 I just hope they can find a good balance and all high end loot isn't just guns. Everyone running around in Ghillies with DMR's got boring real quick. I would consider a decent waterproof lighter nearly high end at this satge.. fuck them nearly unlightable matches :) .Nvg's, proper hunting knife with stone and carry case. Heli crashes could spawn a mil backpack with buttbucket so you could actually carry your sniper on the pack. It is silly to not be able to break down the M4 at the very least and store it.

 

I'm happy with the guns in the game atm but i know others would like higher end guns and it would make heli wrecks/mil wrecks a bit more exciting knowing there was a chance of something a bit nastier than an M4 or 1911 possibly there.

[Briljin 102]

Just taking my two sessions last night as an example of why i would like high tier to be very rare. Spawned in with a new char. First session, 1 x M4 and 1 x AKM. 2 x acog for M4, two times 40 mag. 2 X 30 MAG FOR akm, PS0 scope. Second session found another M4 which i kitted out and left outside a barracks with a note, found another AKM and two 30 mags. Needless to say before the end of my first session i was healthy and had everything possibly needed to go and kick back and rack up the days in the forest and twiddle my thumbs. 

 

You had insane luck finding crash sites, that or you were upon a server with no one else.  I have raided a couple of military outpost and AFs since the patch and I have not seen a single m4, m4 mag, m4 ammo or m4 accessory outside of crash sites.  AKMs, mags and accessories are easy to find but then someone could just as quickly take it away with a single mosin shot.

 

Keep in mind that right now we are experiencing server resets almost every 2 hours and most servers are running well below population, so it is much easier to find stuff because it spawns so quickly and there isn't much competition for it (even upon full servers really).  Hopefully once servers are not resetting constantly and we get a large population count then things will balance out.

[gibonez 3633]

I was watching Dead man Down yesterday and I noticed there was an SVD in it.

 

It was however extremely customized and this is what I envision what high end loot looks like in Dayz.

 

high end loot has to be looked at in a different way in dayz because of the accessory system.

Because of the rarity of accessories a weapon like the akm and m4 are very much top tier high end loot. A fully kitted out akm and m4 is what the game should consider the highest end gear and by controlling the rarity of its accessorizes they can achieve that.

 

Take the SVD for instance it could be treated like a high end gun like the m4 an only spawn on helicopter crashes.

 

Like so but after various accessories are found such as optics, rails to attach a bipod, suppressor and such it becomes extremely rare.

[Katana67 2907]

It was however extremely customized and this is what I envision what high end loot looks like in Dayz.

 

high end loot has to be looked at in a different way in dayz because of the accessory system.

Because of the rarity of accessories a weapon like the akm and m4 are very much top tier high end loot. A fully kitted out akm and m4 is what the game should consider the highest end gear and by controlling the rarity of its accessorizes they can achieve that.

 

Take the SVD for instance it could be treated like a high end gun like the m4 an only spawn on helicopter crashes.

 

Like so but after various accessories are found such as optics, rails to attach a bipod, suppressor and such it becomes extremely rare

 

Again, there's nothing inherent to an assault rifle (even augmented by rare attachments) that's justifiably necessary to counter by making it hyper-rare.

 

Even if we consider them "good," they aren't that much better than weapons like the SKS and Mosin (which are also augmented by attachments).

 

In other words, there's no point in making the M4 rare (innately or via attachments) if it isn't any better than weapons that are ostensibly uncommon/common. I won't go searching for one, if the SKS is just as good if not better.

 

Hence why we need different types of weapons altogether (like battle rifles and LMGs/GPMGs) which function/behave differently, and therefore offer new (and better) capabilities.

 

And it's not significant, but the weapon being held by Colin Farrell above appears to be a PSL and not an SVD.

 

Attachments are not the sole determinant in what makes a weapon "high-end." The weapon itself has innate capabilities which are far more significant than what is added via attachments.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Katana67

[igor-vk 909]

High-end loot should be in game, but more difficult to get. Now all military bases are free of zombies (found two AKMs at Vresnik and three zombies). In mod (even in ridiculous Overwatch) all high-loot spots were crawling with zombies as soon as you fire first round. So, in order to get DMR, or FAL, or SAW, you should work hard, invest time, ammo and gear to get it. 

[Hetstaine 10852]

You had insane luck finding crash sites, that or you were upon a server with no one else.  I have raided a couple of military outpost and AFs since the patch and I have not seen a single m4, m4 mag, m4 ammo or m4 accessory outside of crash sites.  AKMs, mags and accessories are easy to find but then someone could just as quickly take it away with a single mosin shot.

 

Keep in mind that right now we are experiencing server resets almost every 2 hours and most servers are running well below population, so it is much easier to find stuff because it spawns so quickly and there isn't much competition for it (even upon full servers really).  Hopefully once servers are not resetting constantly and we get a large population count then things will balance out.

Once you know where the crash sites are you can get to all of them in well under the time needed for a server restart if that is your mission, especially once vehicles are added. My find was a 28-30 odd fluctuating server, boring as ass playing on empty or low pop, no risk. I have run around and hit the helis plenty and got sfa admittedly, those two runs were 6 heli sites in total and everyone i hit looked like it hadn't been raided. Regardless, it still doesn't take long to get kitted with and AKM and attachments anyway, which is well enough to take out the nasties.

This was where i was at before i dropped one of the M4's ..

Main thing is, i don't mind higher end gear in game, just make that shit hard to get so it is worth keeping. Not the old every man and his dog with a DMR/AS50 etc camping the towns like the mod ended up.

At the moment if i lose a fully kitted M4 or AKM it is extremely easy to get gunned up again, generally under an hour. If i get something better than either of those, i want to know it is worth keeping because i had to spend a long time looking for it.

[alsmir 255]

I'd like to see each wepon coming with it's pros and cons.

 

"Should I pick easy to maintain AK that uses popular ammo, but lacks accuracy or grab that special rare assault rifle that comes with one full mag, will be a pain in the ass to maintain, close to impossible to repair and might jam when I need it the most? Where will I get ammo for that fancy gun?"

 

If you get some rare weapon that needs to be cleaned every 5 mins if you keep running in the rain next time you might consider picking up something more reliable.

 

Remember how everyone in the Mod would pick M14 over Fn Fal simply because red dot and easy to find ammo?

[qww 287]

good player with sks/mosin or good player with m4, id say in most situations m4 will win, unless mosin has lrs and is at distance. assault rifle is versatile high grade weapon in game so far.

all comes down to what youre doing in game, what is your play style, whats high value for one player is not useful for other player at all