Loot Availability discussion: Reality

[Whyherro123 2283]

I would like to make a couple of points about loot, namely, how much should actually be found in-game. 

The truth of the matter is, it really depends on how long it has been since structured society shat the bed.

 

I have seen many posts in "survival" threads about how people want loot spawns drastically reduced, about how finding only a little bit is "realistic", and how the player should be forced to rely on themselves. Again, I say the availability of loot is really dependent on the time-frame of the setting.

See, I don't think many people realize just how much STUFF we produce as a species, and release into the environment. You can travel to the most desolate coastline in the world (Antarctica), and find enough accumulated detritus to build a mock Stonehenge out of toilet bowls (seriously, look it up)

 

Point being, in the first few days/weeks after a TSC event, there would be a lot of "stuff" left over. Canned food, clothing, ammuntion, etc. With a major (if not most) of the population dead from zombe-ism (which is SIGNIFICANTLY different from a "realistic" TSC-event, where most of the dieoff would take place over months and years), there would effectively be a lot of stuff "left behind", as it were. Every player would be able to find multiple articles of factory-made clothing, (maybe) fresh fruit on shelves, including tropical species, ammunition by the caseload, etc.

 

On the other hand, if you want "found" gear to be scarce, then the game would have to be set years after the TSC-event. Canned goods, even if rotated properly, only really can last 5 years. Modern (smokeless powder) ammunition degrades over time, so does gasoline. So, in this instance, gear would be extremely rare, and people would have to make their own spears/bows/primitive firearms, but that would (YMMV on this one, as I have a multitude of ideas about what could be done with this period of time) also severely limit group play. There would effectively be no vehicles, as they havent been produced for years, and have no fuel to run off of/no lubricants/no oil. There would be no M4A1 assault carbines, nor "modern" bullets to shoot. Clothing would be made of hides and crude cloth, and gear-carrying-equipment would be limited to small packs, bags, and belt pouches. There would be no morphine to fix broken legs, nor antibiotics to treat infections, just a cosh to the head to put you out of your misery. Essentially, Day z set in the 1700s. (Which, to be honest, I've developed a tabletop RPG set during a zombie apocalypse in the Jamestown Colony. Kicks ass, my players LOVE it.

 

Up to you guys. You can't have both and cry realism.

 

 

[Katana67 2907]

Balance and gameplay must supersede "realism" in this instance.

 

I don't want to find tons and tons of food because I don't want hunting to be rendered irrelevant. Not because I think it's more realistic. If it's going to be a new system that they're dumping a significant slice of resources into, I want it to have a lasting effect on how we play the game. I don't see that happening so long as one can fill up on canned goods and fresh fruit, easily, from a residential house. Hunting is a more involved process than merely walking into a building and downing a can of beans, hence why I want it to be more relied-upon than looted food goods.

 

Likewise, the same applies to the "gasoline goes bad" argument. Well, sure, but you can't really have vehicles if that were the case. So, we forgo "realism" to provide for a worthwhile system in-game.

 

This is what I've been saying all along. I love "realism" and it's a great thing to factor into thinking about DayZ. But it's not a reason why something should be X.

 

Nor is it useful when adhered to without compromise. Realism is only useful inasmuch as it supports the goals of DayZ as articulated by the developers. Similarly, it's only as useful so long as it is considered alongside pragmatic "gameplay" concerns.

 

[EDIT - Recognize that I'm not referring to you personally, and I too place a great emphasis on the necessity for the establishment of a "timeframe" in DayZ]

Edited June 6, 2014 by Katana67

[Daemonkid 493]

Depending on the storage conditions of said gasoline, it can be OKAY for use for up to 3 years. But gas will evaporate, the additives can cause issues, but all in all, gas doesn't expire all that quickly if storage conditions are good.

[Hikurac 115]

Balance and gameplay must supersede "realism" in this instance.

 

I don't want to find tons and tons of food because I don't want hunting to be rendered irrelevant. If it's going to be a new system that they're dumping a significant slice of resources into, I want it to have a lasting effect on how we play the game. I don't see that happening so long as one can fill up on canned goods and fresh fruit, easily, from a residential house.

 

Likewise, the same applies to the "gasoline goes bad" argument. Well, sure, but you can't really have vehicles if that were the case.

 

This is what I've been saying all along. I love "realism" and it's a great thing to factor into thinking about DayZ. But it's not a reason why something should be X.

 

Nor is it useful when adhered to without compromise. Realism is only useful inasmuch as it supports the goals of DayZ as articulated by the developers. Similarly, it's only as useful so long as it is considered alongside pragmatic "gameplay" concerns.

 

[EDIT - Recognize that I'm not referring to you personally, and I too place a great emphasis on the necessity for the establishment of a "timeframe" in DayZ]

If you want both realism and balance, its as simple as stating that this is Chernarus about two years after the outbreak. Low amount of bullets, food, and crappy gun conditions would make sense due to two years of scavenging, killing, and societal degradation. As for gasoline, it itself doesn't really "go bad" or rather the additives in it do. The additional compounds separate and become grimy. It doesn't make the vehicle unusable, just sluggish and gunky.

 

My cousin left her car sitting around for over a year and a half. It was annoying trying to start the car but it still worked, and could get you from point A to B just fine. Then again Toyota's are pretty tough compared to most vehicles.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Hikurac

[dulix11 731]

If things are going to be rarer there needs to be more work done.

 

I personally think that if you are going to reduce food loot spawns, then the hunting is going to have to work to a reasonable degree. If the hunting works, then the cooking has to work to a reasonable degree. So on and so forth.

 

The same with bullets. Bullets should be very rare, but in order for that to work, it would mean that melee weapons would become the next best thing. But we all know that melee weapons are one of the most clunkiest things to use in the game right now. So...

 

Rarer bullets > Emphasis on melee weapons > Better mechanics for melee weapons.....

 

Once everything is running smoothly I think the loot should be messed around with a little.

[nexventor 429]

I would like to make a couple of points about loot, namely, how much should actually be found in-game. 

The truth of the matter is, it really depends on how long it has been since structured society shat the bed.

 

I have seen many posts in "survival" threads about how people want loot spawns drastically reduced, about how finding only a little bit is "realistic", and how the player should be forced to rely on themselves. Again, I say the availability of loot is really dependent on the time-frame of the setting.

See, I don't think many people realize just how much STUFF we produce as a species, and release into the environment. You can travel to the most desolate coastline in the world (Antarctica), and find enough accumulated detritus to build a mock Stonehenge out of toilet bowls (seriously, look it up)

 

Point being, in the first few days/weeks after a TSC event, there would be a lot of "stuff" left over. Canned food, clothing, ammuntion, etc. With a major (if not most) of the population dead from zombe-ism (which is SIGNIFICANTLY different from a "realistic" TSC-event, where most of the dieoff would take place over months and years), there would effectively be a lot of stuff "left behind", as it were. Every player would be able to find multiple articles of factory-made clothing, (maybe) fresh fruit on shelves, including tropical species, ammunition by the caseload, etc.

 

On the other hand, if you want "found" gear to be scarce, then the game would have to be set years after the TSC-event. Canned goods, even if rotated properly, only really can last 5 years. Modern (smokeless powder) ammunition degrades over time, so does gasoline. So, in this instance, gear would be extremely rare, and people would have to make their own spears/bows/primitive firearms, but that would (YMMV on this one, as I have a multitude of ideas about what could be done with this period of time) also severely limit group play. There would effectively be no vehicles, as they havent been produced for years, and have no fuel to run off of/no lubricants/no oil. There would be no M4A1 assault carbines, nor "modern" bullets to shoot. Clothing would be made of hides and crude cloth, and gear-carrying-equipment would be limited to small packs, bags, and belt pouches. There would be no morphine to fix broken legs, nor antibiotics to treat infections, just a cosh to the head to put you out of your misery. Essentially, Day z set in the 1700s. (Which, to be honest, I've developed a tabletop RPG set during a zombie apocalypse in the Jamestown Colony. Kicks ass, my players LOVE it.

 

Up to you guys. You can't have both and cry realism.

 

 

AS ROCKET HAS SAID MULTIPLE TIMES! NOTHING HAS BEEN BALANCED YET! 

 

It's like 3 posts a day on this subject jeebus christ.

[Whyherro123 2283]

-snip-

Thanks, Mr. Forum Police Officer Sir. 

I AM, however, allowed to express my opinions. So, if you don't have anything meaningful to add to the discussion, please (and I mean this in the kindest way possible) go bother someone else. Big boys are talking, here.

[Sutinen 635]

I am constantly energized and hydrated with like 5 100% cans in my inventory and I have only killed one boar with an axe for fun. I tested if I could just charge at it with a melee weapon and succesfully kill it. I could. I don't know how realistic is that. Didn't have anything to gut it with so I just left the carcass.

[Whyherro123 2283]

I am constantly energized and hydrated with like 5 100% cans in my inventory and I have only killed one boar with an axe for fun. I tested if I could just charge at it with a melee weapon and succesfully kill it. I could. I don't know how realistic is that. Didn't have anything to gut it with so I just left the carcass.

Haha good luck trying that in real life, the boar would tear you to pieces, and probably eat you when he was done.

[GrandHeron 21]

Given the actual density of zombies, I feel like most the citizens just ran the f**k away from the region. With that in mind, clothes should be present in everyhouse in quantities way higher than what we currently see (considering that every player only owns one set of clothes) and guns should be way rarer (what kind of people would leave the town without its weapons during a zombie apocalypse ?!?) .

 

I agree that food should'nt be this abundant given its value during the postapocalyptic period. But as we spawn with a hunger issue right away, food HAS TO be abundant to give every player a shot in surviving, especially in a well populated server. I'll be ok with hard to find food when I'll be able to wat the fruits from the shtload of trees all around Berezino that are gathered like it's an orchard.

 

I think hunting will be useful as a way to be independant of looting houses after the gathering of a minimal gear.

 

What is beeing said next is not suited for sensible people:

 

Shouldn't we also be able to gut the people we kill so we can eat their meat? We've all heard/read/seen true stories of people that survived by cannibalizing the dead

Edited June 6, 2014 by GrandHeron

[Sutinen 635]

Haha good luck trying that in real life, the boar would tear you to pieces, and probably eat you when he was done.

Exactly, I thought the animals would be impossible to kill with melee, but I guess now you have more rounds to shoot players with  :rolleyes:

[liquidsnake 275]

Are you kidding me? The UN (US, Germany and UK, to our knowledge), Russia and the CDF were staioned in Chernarus. Supposedly in great numbers. They supposedly also all diminished and it's known that the survivors are 1% of Chernarus' population  (and Chernarus isn't densely populated, mind you). That leaves armies worth of weaponry to be picked up by the few that survived. Now I have to say that there is a chance that the UN/Russia fell back after a certain amount of time, but it's safe to say that the entire CDF army perished in Chernarus. That leaves, what? 50 AKMs per head? 10 or more KVSKs per head? And that's without the UN, Russia  and civilian or even police firearms. 

If anything, there should be more guns. Broken down helicopters should spawn 4 AKS74Us, roughly 20 AKMs and a few SVDs, that should cover every victim in the crash. Run down supply trucks should spawn 50 AKMs, 20 SVDs and 10.000 rounds for each. Etc.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

Are you kidding me? The UN (US, Germany and UK, to our knowledge), Russia and the CDF were staioned in Chernarus. Supposedly in great numbers. They supposedly also all diminished and it's known that the survivors are 1% of Chernarus' population  (and Chernarus isn't densely populated, mind you). That leaves armies worth of weaponry to be picked up by the few that survived. Now I have to say that there is a chance that the UN/Russia fell back after a certain amount of time, but it's safe to say that the entire CDF army perished in Chernarus. That leaves, what? 50 AKMs per head? 10 or more KVSKs per head? And that's without the UN, Russia  and civilian or even police firearms. 

If anything, there should be more guns. Broken down helicopters should spawn 4 AKS74Us, roughly 20 AKMs and a few SVDs, that should cover every victim in the crash. Run down supply trucks should spawn 50 AKMs, 20 SVDs and 10.000 rounds for each. Etc.

I don't know where people pull out this info from, it's more than likely that in the fictional universe of chernarus, none of these factions exist. Just because the game has some US guns doesn't mean the US exist at all in the lore.

[Daemonkid 493]

I don't know where people pull out this info from, it's more than likely that in the fictional universe of chernarus, none of these factions exist. Just because the game has some US guns doesn't mean the US exist at all in the lore.

'Cept they do. Because if we can find Chedaki berets, UN berets, US tactical clothing.. it means they were there. 

The Chedaki Beret and propaganda posters and billboards indicate that yes, indeed the events of Arma 2 Operation Harvest Red happened.

[Munson_fry (DayZ) 312]

Haha good luck trying that in real life, the boar would tear you to pieces, and probably eat you when he was done.

wild boars are extremly dangerous and agressive when threatend. 

 

BUT they will only attack if u  piss them off  ( corner them )

look at this one he could have run away ( but he chooses to fight instead )

 

www.youtube.com/embed/ZOlSkIAxAWg

 

or

 

http://youtu.be/5WwK_1SFE_8

Edited June 6, 2014 by Munson_fry

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

'Cept they do. Because if we can find Chedaki berets, UN berets, US tactical clothing.. it means they were there. 

The Chedaki Beret and propaganda posters and billboards indicate that yes, indeed the events of Arma 2 Operation Harvest Red happened.

It's just recycled assets, don't form conclusions where there isn't any, DayZ use a ton assets previously made by bohemia interactive. Because i pick a model i like doesn't mean whatever it represent get added to the game's storyline. And that's even IF the game is gonna have a storyline at all since this is supposed to be "your story".

[Daemonkid 493]

It's just recycled assets, don't form conclusions where there isn't any, DayZ use a ton assets previously made by bohemia interactive. Because i pick a model i like doesn't mean whatever it represent get added to the game's storyline. And that's even IF the game is gonna have a storyline at all since this is supposed to be "your story".

The Chedaki beret isn't a recycled asset... lmao. The game is staged in after the events of Harvest Red. This has been confirmed. 

"Your story" applies to the events RIGHT NOW during the infected outbreak.

Also.

Shots fired.

 I could tell you that the back story of Chernarus + rides on the back of ArmA2 in which there was large amounts of NATO forces and US personnel conducting an FID mission" ~ Scubaman3D (Chris Torchia)

Edited June 6, 2014 by Daemonkid

[liquidsnake 275]

It's just recycled assets, don't form conclusions where there isn't any, DayZ use a ton assets previously made by bohemia interactive. Because i pick a model i like doesn't mean whatever it represent get added to the game's storyline. And that's even IF the game is gonna have a storyline at all since this is supposed to be "your story".

They're not previously used by BI. A2 used an entirely different clothing system. I should even say that there wasn't a clothing system at all. Nothing could've been copy-pasted. Thus, BI created the berets and various clothing from scratch. If they didn't mean to add them, they could've simply not mentioned the Chedaki in the description. They could've refrained from adding the US flag patch to the combat jacket easily. Especially the UK vest could've simply been called combat harness or something. 

Instead, they wilfully added all of those things. Therefore, we can conclude that the Chedaki exists, the UK/US/German forces were there (supposedly as UN) and also that Russian forces were present during and perhaps after the outbreak. 

This is supposed to be our story, but there are also irrefutable facts.

[Daemonkid 493]

They're not previously used by BI. A2 used an entirely different clothing system. I should even say that there wasn't a clothing system at all. Nothing could've been copy-pasted. Thus, BI created the berets and various clothing from scratch. If they didn't mean to add them, they could've simply not mentioned the Chedaki in the description. They could've refrained from adding the US flag patch to the combat jacket easily. Especially the UK vest could've simply been called combat harness or something. 

Instead, they wilfully added all of those things. Therefore, we can conclude that the Chedaki exists, the UK/US/German forces were there (supposedly as UN) and also that Russian forces were present during and perhaps after the outbreak. 

This is supposed to be our story, but there are also irrefutable facts.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

People don't like facts.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Hikurac 115]

Don't fight too much over the lore. The lore is important but the only real thing that dictates loot availability is the time in which DayZ is set. It's clear that it has been a while since the outbreak but I don't believe Rocket has ever set a time period. Doesn't matter how many soldiers fought in the region, if the area is quarantined and it's been at least 2-3 years, those guns would have been scavenged and used up all to hell. Also keep in mind that zombies weren't the only thing these people were fighting against.

 

Who knows, they could even put a little spin on it and make it so regular is closer to the outbreak, whereas hardcore is farther in the future. I'm not pushing for that idea, just laying it out there.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

Don't fight too much over the lore. The lore is important but the only real thing that dictates loot availability is the time in which DayZ is set. It's clear that it has been a while since the outbreak but I don't believe Rocket has ever set a time period. Doesn't matter how many soldiers fought in the region, if the area is quarantined and it's been at least 2-3 years, those guns would have been scavenged and used up all to hell. Also keep in mind that zombies weren't the only thing these people were fighting against.

 

Who knows, they could even put a little spin on it and make it so regular is closer to the outbreak, whereas hardcore is farther in the future. I'm not pushing for that idea, just laying it out there.

The only thing that dictate loot availability is whatever the devs decide to do, and then wrap whatever story they want around it. Do you really think they care about sticking to any storyline really? This is about gameplay.

[diuwhysoserious 0]

I super agree what you said about "realism" and "loot finding".
I have been thinking that since the first time of playing and shocked that the loot in houses that common sense would judge there should be food or clothes (the reality is nothing in there).

Reasonably, balancing loots with reference to our reality thoughts would make the game very noticeable.
At least to me, I'm very impressed by the theme of the game (definitely because I like cold-war stuff and Russian-like words drive me crazy).
The theme and the background met each other very harmoniously.

Actually, both solutions have problems. Or maybe ultimately the game just doesn't work (either way of loot spawning mechanisms).
Not just mentioning that in real world you don't compete food, water, shelter, guns with max 40 people in a 225km^2 land, 
but also loot respawning itself is unreal.

I'm obsessed with the realism of this game trying to implement (like hunting when you can't go to supermarket and find food you need anymore,
drinking water that may be contaminated from ponds when you will never see running tap in your house etc).
Because of these realism-like features drive me to think more radically about creating a most-real survival game (ideally).

I see the vision of this game brings to gaming industry (especially realistic survival horror game).
This game doesn't just dress a FPS game with a zombie killing theme BUT more importantly bringing a lot potential to a GAME.
Fortunately, funding to support this game is going better and better at least a fan base exists (lots of great projects died at last due to insufficient financial support).

I look forward to seeing the bright future of this game.

[sloasdaylight 129]

They're not previously used by BI. A2 used an entirely different clothing system. I should even say that there wasn't a clothing system at all. Nothing could've been copy-pasted. Thus, BI created the berets and various clothing from scratch. If they didn't mean to add them, they could've simply not mentioned the Chedaki in the description. They could've refrained from adding the US flag patch to the combat jacket easily. Especially the UK vest could've simply been called combat harness or something. 

Instead, they wilfully added all of those things. Therefore, we can conclude that the Chedaki exists, the UK/US/German forces were there (supposedly as UN) and also that Russian forces were present during and perhaps after the outbreak. 

This is supposed to be our story, but there are also irrefutable facts.

 

This.

 

 

Don't fight too much over the lore. The lore is important but the only real thing that dictates loot availability is the time in which DayZ is set. It's clear that it has been a while since the outbreak but I don't believe Rocket has ever set a time period. Doesn't matter how many soldiers fought in the region, if the area is quarantined and it's been at least 2-3 years, those guns would have been scavenged and used up all to hell. Also keep in mind that zombies weren't the only thing these people were fighting against.

 

Who knows, they could even put a little spin on it and make it so regular is closer to the outbreak, whereas hardcore is farther in the future. I'm not pushing for that idea, just laying it out there.

 

Which is lore...

 

Also not much is clear about how long it's been since the outbreak too place. Detroit looks like a 4th world septic tank in some places, and there hasn't been a zombie outbreak there.

Edited June 6, 2014 by sloasdaylight

[Hikurac 115]

The only thing that dictate loot availability is whatever the devs decide to do, and then wrap whatever story they want around it. Do you really think they care about sticking to any storyline really? This is about gameplay.

Well yeah, that's what i'm trying to say. I doubt the developers would just slap loot around without clarifying the setting. I'm not saying that they have to do one before the other.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Hikurac