Ammo rarity/dispersion solution

[Bruce of Wayne 81]

I was reading on the forums and an idea popped in my head regarding ammo. People say ammo should be rare, and people say that there are too many military grade weapons, and people say that adding new types of ammo to the loot table will make ammo for individual weapons so rare that they would have to increase the number of places ammo spawns in. I have a solution to these problems.

I say make it like Metro 2033, where you almost exclusively use handmade ammo, and military grade ammo is more effective, and it's rare enough that they use it as currency in the metro. Players should rarely find military grade rounds (and industrial, actual rounds produced by companies for sale). But, we should be able to craft, out of common materials, handmade rounds. Now you would have to have a reloading station and some gunpowder, a projectile, crafted from a metal, or for really low quality, maybe even a rock,and a casing from a round, and the casings must be that of a whatever round you want to craft; you can't craft a 556 with 9mm casing(casings could be spawned where a player shot before, and be fairly common spawning loot). So, these rounds wouldn't be too easy to make, but not too hard. However, they would also spawn in areas without you having to craft them in the same frequency that ammo currently does. Military or industrial grade ammo would be a bit more accurate and a bit more powerful, by enough that it matters, but not enough that handmade rounds are not effective. I'm thinking a 5.56 would take 4 shots with a stomach shot with handmade, two with military grade ammo. And the military would have about a .003 better dispersion. If they had jamming handmades would have a better chance of jamming.

What would this do? It would tone down some of the kill on sight we see, especially with snipers, because you can't snipe quite as well with that little bit of lower power and accuracy, but it would still be doable, especially if you had military grade rounds. But if you have those rounds, is it worth them? It would also make it so that even if you have a military grade weapon, you won't be a killing machine without proper ammo. It would also allow enough space that you would not have to increase the amount that ammo spawns.

What do you guys think?

[Whyherro123 2283]

1) You can't make bullets (the bit that zooms out to getcha) out of rock. 

2) Reloaded ammunition is no different fundamentally from commercially-made rounds. Actually, with handloading, you can build cartridges to exact specifications, allowing for greater accuracy, more punch, etc.

 

3) In order to reload a cartridge, you need a whole setup of supplies and machines. Now, there are handloading kits, of course, but you have to know what you are doing. Do you know the exact amount of grains of smokeless powder goes into a 5.56x45mm round? Smokeless powder also doesn't grow on trees. Who is producing the powder, or the primers? Do you know how to crimp the casings? (Necessary on some rounds) Also, many casings (mainly the "bottleneck" style, IIRC) can only be reloaded a few times, until the metal of the casing becomes too weak to handle the explosion of another firing.

 

4) What about lead fouling in the rifling of a barrel? With a more modern firearm, it can cause jams or worse. (Granted, this isn't limited to only modern autoloaders)

 

See, this is why I stick to blackpowder muzzloaders and shotguns. I don't have to worry about casings, primers (well, percussion caps, in my case, but I have thousands of them stocked up) or smokeless powder. I can reload my own ammunition in the field using blackpowder and self-cast lead slugs.

 

Now, it would be awesome to have reloading capabilities added to Day Z. But they should be realistic (God, I hate the term "authentic").

[-Gews- 7443]

Do you know the exact amount of grains of smokeless powder goes into a 5.56x45mm round?

 

26.1 gr WC844 :lol: that one stuck in my memory.

 

I agree with Whyherro, handloading just does not feel authentic to me. Where do you find the supplies and equipment, why would they be there? And it would be represented very poorly, probably scroll > "craft ammo" and you instantly get something with half the damage magically made with your bare hands, some pebbles and a pair of pliers.

[Katana67 2907]

People say ammo should be rare.

 

I'm not sure what you're proposing actually fixes. I'm all for handloading (if suitably difficult, but I can't really see any advantage to it other than just looting new ammunition), but not as a substitute for looted ammunition. And I certainly don't like a system which somehow tiers the performance of an individual round. You're effectively DOUBLING the types of rounds available to the player (i.e. crafted 7.62x51 and looted 7.62x51, crafted 7.62x39 and looted 7.62x39, etc.) Rather than adding a few new cartridges.

 

You're essentially just proposing for a delineation between good (looted) and bad (crafted) ammunition, if anything, it'd make ammunition more common if you're able to create it at will or at least on your own terms. Why not just make ammunition rarer based upon the capabilities of the weapon it's used in (meaning conventional loot balance)?

 

The only issue now is, they don't have enough calibers (they're in need of four according to my own proposal) to even properly balance the loot (again, my subjective understanding). They don't have enough tools in their toolbox. Not sure how feasible it'd be for them to ditch their toolbox and proverbially buy another one.

 

 

and people say that there are too many military grade weapons

 

I sure as hell don't say/think that. Most of the people that do, say it out of a "feeling" for an aesthetic, rather than anything relevant to the game. I think we're in dire need of a "high-end" spectrum of weapons, for a multitude of reasons... including, but not limited to, player mobility. There aren't enough. The issue is that the ones we do have, can currently be found in cities... and even when they are, they don't confer an appropriate advantage in comparison to the "civilian" lineup we've got now.

 

How does what you're proposing cut down on the number of military grade weapons? I agree that it'd cut down on the effective use of these weapons, in essentially nerfing their capability through crafted ammunition. But I'm not sure I want my rare weapons performing poorly once I get them, I just want them (and their respective magazines and ammunition) to be rare. So that when I do find that gnarly Mk 48, 100 belt links, an attachable box, and 100 rounds of pristine 7.62x51 NATO... I know that the advantages given to me in using said weapon are justified.

 

 

 

people say that adding new types of ammo to the loot table will make ammo for individual weapons so rare that they would have to increase the number of places ammo spawns in

 

I'm not sure how more ammunition types = a need for more places for it to spawn. There are already plenty, plenty, of places for ammunition to spawn. If you mean you'll be less likely to find the particular ammunition for your particular weapon (given that there are a larger number of variables in spawning an item) then yes... but that's the whole point of rarity.

 

 

I'm thinking a 5.56 would take 4 shots with a stomach shot with handmade, two with military grade ammo. And the military would have about a .003 better dispersion. If they had jamming handmades would have a better chance of jamming.

 

I don't want individual rounds doing different damages (i.e. handmade vs. looted). I suppose I'll draw a lot of ire from the "anti-streamlining" crowd (which is sort of silly, as any reduction in complexity is therefore liable to do this, no matter how much sense it makes). But, it makes more sense to me to just make rounds rarer by adding a few more... and making weapons more effective by reducing their dispersion overall. So I think you're more excusing a problem (with a game mechanic) rather than attempting to fix it.

 

Though I certainly welcome brainstorming in this matter, and think you raise some good points... the individual solutions I've seen floated for these issues (i.e. ammunition rarity, ammunition-weapon loot balance, and dispersion) are far more adequate than the blanket proposal you're making.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Katana67

[hotcakes 348]

What. Hand-loaded rounds are about as good as commercial ones if done with nice equipment.

 

I'd rather have a system where dispersion is mostly affected by type of barrel and barrel condition. Your good barrel gets shot out? Can't fix it, you have to throw away your aftermarket barrel, find a new one or lift a stock one off a freshly spawned gun.

 

The condition of the main gun group shouldn't affect accuracy, but make the gun degrade during shooting. Once the main group reaches badly damaged, make it unable to fire and require a cleaning kit. Ammo shouldn't seriously affect dispersion. 

 

EVERYTHING IS SOLVED. 

 

P.S The term military, milspec, and related terms is a bit of a misnomer. Sure, the military usually has automatic weapons and such but milspec usually means "best cost-to-effectiveness we could get on gear." People fling around the term military like it's super special high-tier shit. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by hotcakes

[fuke (DayZ) 22]

The mod had more variety in ammo types and I thought that it encouraged bartering and made people more conservative with their ammo, both of which were good things for a survival game.