Addressing the Weapon Calibers - Compromises and Proposal

[Katana67 2907]

So, with the recent flare up in discussion of weapon calibers in DayZ, I was trying to think of a proposal to address the issue.

 

I'll try my best to keep this concise. However, it should be noted that this proposal isn't intended to appease anyone absolutely. Compromises in "realism" have to be made in order to make for an approachable solution. But, more calibers are necessary for the sake of gameplay and can bring certain weapons in line with "realism".

 

Objectives

- Add a minimum amount of weapon calibers, as to allow for a more wholesome long-term ammunition loot balance.

- Re-allocate ammunition distribution as to be more acceptable to advocates of "realism."

- Break up the ubiquity of 7.62x51 as it stands in-game.

 

Proposal

- Divide ammunition into three overall categories - Generic, Warsaw Pact, and NATO

- Make the aforementioned categories correspond to levels of rarity - Common, Uncommon, and Rare

- Add four new weapon calibers - 7.62x54R, 5.45x39, .30-06, and .338 Lapua Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum

 

Specifics

- .30-06 is to be added as a designated "Hunting Rifle" cartridge to replace the use of 7.62x51 in the Blaze 95 and Longhorn

- 5.45x39 is to be added to offer an Uncommon alternative to Rare 5.56x45 NATO

- 7.62x54R is to be added to offer an Uncommon alternative to Rare 7.62x51 NATO

- .338 Lapua Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum is to be added as a designated "Sniper Rifle" cartridge

- 9x19 will remain the only 9mm pistol cartridge, 9x18M will not be added

 

 

* New calibers are denoted by the (II) marking

** .338 LM/.300 WM are cross-calibers, meaning they're not really related to NATO/Warsaw Pact. Likewise, there is a typo, it's intended to read .300 WM vice .338 WM

*** .22 LR has been left out

 

Shortcomings/Outliers/Alternatives

- AKM and SKS (i.e. 7.62x39)

SOLUTION ONE - Substitute 5.45x39 with 7.62x39, only add three new calibers, discard AK-74M or replace with 7.62x39 analog (i.e. AK-103)

SOLUTION TWO - Limit the selection of weapons to the AKM and SKS, make 7.62x39 Common

- Mosin-Nagant, an ostensibly Common weapon, uses Uncommon 7.62x54R

SOLUTION ONE - Live with it??

 

Summary

- Add four new calibers - 7.62x54R (Uncommon), 5.45x39 (Uncommon)*, .30-06 (Common), and .338 LM/.300 WM (Rare)

- The inclusion of 5.45x39 may not be necessary, as we already have 7.62x39 which could act as a substitute

- Re-organize the way the rounds are grouped by rarity, make a bigger distinction between Generic rounds and NATO/Warsaw Pact rounds

- New rounds may not actually perform any differently from their counterparts, the division is solely there to provide for a better distinction in terms of rarity

 

* As stated in the second bullet of the summary, the addition of 5.45x39 may be redundant

 

DISCLAIMER - Inflexible, vitriolic, and/or non-constructive posts are not welcome. However, feel free to make suggestions and reasonable critiques

Edited May 31, 2014 by Katana67

[guppy22143 1081]

All of this.

Take mah fuckin' beanz.

[-Gews- 7443]

Seems okay to me but as far as I'm concerned .357 Magnum could be thrown out (fat chance), 5,45x39 could take its place (caliber is necessary IMO) and certain sniper or hunting rifles could use 7,62x51/.308.

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

Seems okay to me but as far as I'm concerned .357 Magnum could be thrown out (fat chance), 5,45x39 could take its place (caliber is necessary IMO) and certain sniper or hunting rifles could use 7,62x51/.308.

 

I'm on board with this.

[Katana67 2907]

Seems okay to me but as far as I'm concerned .357 Magnum could be thrown out (fat chance), 5,45x39 could take its place (caliber is necessary IMO) and certain sniper or hunting rifles could use 7,62x51/.308.

 

The way I think the last bit could be managed, at least with hunting rifles (although the distinction may not even be that significant as to warrant this caveat) is by managing the optics available to hunting rifles as to be distinct from dedicated sniper rifles. Obviously, in the real-world, there's significant overlap between the two.

[-Gews- 7443]

The way I think the last bit could be managed, at least with hunting rifles (although the distinction may not even be that significant as to warrant this caveat) is by managing the optics available to hunting rifles as to be distinct from dedicated sniper rifles. Obviously, in the real-world, there's significant overlap between the two.

They should have a couple hunting optics without zeroing. Often your average hunting scope will just have a duplex reticle without finger-adjustable elevation or windage turrets. Fixed zero @ 200m would work fine. Military or long range optics would be more rare, better for snipers. Those could have higher magnification depending on the model, better for long range worse for closer. A sniper or hunting rifle should spawn with a scope, I doubt many players would take the tactical scope off a nice sniper rifle to mount it on a cheap hunting rifle so not a big deal.

[SFRGaming 718]

100% support this BUT

 

Even if the devs take heed to this thread, 7.62x51 will still be in majority of the rifles. It's one of the most universal (if not THE most universal) rounds and is used in  MANY different models of weaponry.

[Katana67 2907]

Even if the devs take heed to this thread, 7.62x51 will still be in majority of the rifles. It's one of the most universal (if not THE most universal) rounds and is used in  MANY different models of weaponry.

 

I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying that it needs to be rarer, and not be applied to every type of weapon, and not be an amalgamation of 7.62x54R and 7.62x51 NATO. Because as of now, it's in break-action pistols... double rifles... and bolt-actions. That's leaving out the battle rifles, DMRs, GPMGs, and dedicated sniper rifles that it also could be included for.

 

I'm merely making the case that it need not be AS ubiquitous as it is now. It's flexible as listed above, hence why it's a rare round, as to justify that flexibility. However, it can't be used in both rare and common weapons... as it therefore must remain common to supply the common weapons (and thereby makes the use of rare weapons using 7.62x51 not all that rare).

Edited May 31, 2014 by Katana67

[bodybagger2430 59]

I like it. It makes all calibers minimal, yet also doable instead of splitting them into tiers like most games do. Fallout 3 and New Vegas begin the prime example. (Oh, it's just a 9mm SMG, it won't do the damage to anything I NEED at this level!)

[SFRGaming 718]

I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying that it needs to be rarer, and not be applied to every type of weapon, and not be an amalgamation of 7.62x54R and 7.62x51 NATO. Because as of now, it's in break-action pistols... double rifles... and bolt-actions. That's leaving out the battle rifles, DMRs, GPMGs, and dedicated sniper rifles that it also could be included for.

 

I'm merely making the case that it need not be AS ubiquitous as it is now. It's flexible as listed above, hence why it's a rare round, as to justify that flexibility. However, it can't be used in both rare and common weapons... as it therefore must remain common to supply the common weapons (and thereby makes the use of rare weapons using 7.62x51 not all that rare).

Based off of Chris Torchia's tweet replies, I don't think we will see 5.54x39 for a while. When the SVD comes in, I think we will see a new round type (7.62x54R) since there will be more than 1 gun using the round. It's more efficient for them to add the 2 most basic NATO rounds (5.56 and 7.62 NATO) and work from there. Could they have made 7.62x54R along side the 7.62 NATO? of course, but it would have been inefficient for workflow. I'd rather them have some guns with slight errors in which rounds they utilize and then fix it when it's appropriate. As I said before, we will probably see them add the 7.62x54R when the SVD is added. If it's not fixed after that, then surely it will be fixed IF they add the PKP.

 

I'm currently wondering if we will see weapons like the L85A2, which utilize the 5.56 NATO. And maybe a Mk16 as well.

 

I also wouldn't count on seeing .338 for a long time. If it's even added, it will be after they start controlling how many certain "high-tier" items spawn through x number of servers. After that, we will start seeing high-powered rifles being added.

[crazykage 1063]

This is good stuff. I agree with OP, with the sole exceptions mentioned by gews.

But still irrelevant, IMO. As said in another thread, there is just NO POINT until magical, nonsensical, randomized dispersion is eliminated or, at the very least, relegated to ONLY weapons that are not in pristine condition.

[hells high 676]

- 9x19 will remain the only 9mm pistol cartridge, 9x18M will not be added

 

CONSOLE GARBAAAAAAAAGE

 

 

All jokes aside, I don't have a problem with the weapon calibers as they are. For right now they make sense from a development standpoint, and even if it carried through to release I wouldn't be so rage filled I'd wanna flip tiny pizza tables. Your post makes just as much sense for the game to me, but I could honestly go either way.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Hells High

[gibonez 3633]

I still fail to see the reason for any sort of compromise.

Solution seems quite simple to me.

Decide on the calibers they want in the game. Then remove any current weapons thst are not in the calibers on thst list.

Having nato mosins is simply unacceptable.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I still fail to see the reason for any sort of compromise.

Solution seems quite simple to me.

Decide on the calibers they want in the game. Then remove any current weapons thst are not in the calibers on thst list.

Having nato mosins is simply unacceptable.

Good luck convincing them to take out weapons they've already implemented in game.

"Boss, I've just finished this awesome model of an SVT-40 and I think it's about ready to b.....",

"Nope, sorry, can't have it. Get rid of it, and take it out of the game while you're at it",

"But, sir",

"Do not question it. Overlord gibonez does not want any stray to the slightest degree in weapons. We've rejected adding 7.62x54mmR, so you'll have to delete the model.",

"But, sir!"

"I said no questions! Get to it"

"*Sigh*, Yes, sir."

Edited May 31, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[-Gews- 7443]

Good luck convincing them to take out weapons they've already implemented in game.

Stuff already in? Not happening

But I'd rather no gun than a pretty skin with all the wrong properties. AK-74 must use 5,56 and that's set in stone? Then can the model I say... go make something that actually uses 5,56.

[TheCreeper (DayZ) 3563]

Pretty sure the 7.62x54R round is in the game, just labeled as 7.62, feeds right into the mosin ( granted I know so does the 7.62x51/.308 ), the ammo graphic even looks like 54R.

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

All i saw was... No 9x18

Srsly, what makes more sense here.. Double-barrel $1000000 rifles with American bullets, Modern .338 Sniper rifles, but no Ubiquitous Makarovs, CZs, APS, Skorpian, P-64s? Honestly... that makes no sense to me. 9x18 and 7.62x25 would allow for an entire line of weapons that fill different roles, fit the Scenario and are very "Survivor" like.

 

 

Or, we could increase sniping.

[INoEmo 29]

Honestly I believe ammo should drop as it is now, but have the guns use the ammo they use in real life.  Have switchable barrels and bolts to make 1 gun take 2 types if you can the right barrel.  Also add all the variants of the one gun, so have a 9x19, a 9x18 and a .45 acp (not sure if such a gun exists, not to good with guns)  that way you come across a gun that's worse than the one you have but it' the only one you have bullets for.  Plus if you met a player who has bullets for your gun and you have bullets for their gun you could trade.  That's just what I think anyway.

[stielhandgranate 480]

I think it is ironic that the Devs added .357 but don't want to add 7.62x54R or 5.45. I concur with the others that favor eliminating it in favor of a more correct cartridge.

[stielhandgranate 480]

All i saw was... No 9x18

Srsly, what makes more sense here.. Double-barrel $1000000 rifles with American bullets, Modern .338 Sniper rifles, but no Ubiquitous Makarovs, CZs, APS, Skorpian, P-64s? Honestly... that makes no sense to me. 9x18 and 7.62x25 would allow for an entire line of weapons that fill different roles, fit the Scenario and are very "Survivor" like.

 

 

Or, we could increase sniping.

 

I wish we could add it in but:

 

From Chris Torchia:

 

 

what it comes down to is us really wanting to have the lowest possible number of calibers spawning in the game. Thats why we've only been adding in the most common types (9mm, .45, 12ga, 5.56, 7.62, etc...) and why we've been grouping similar kinds of ammo into one. Its the reason we haven't made a distinction between the mosin, blaze, longhorn, or eventually SVD ammo types. In reality these four are firing two different kinds of 7.62mm rounds but the performance characteristics are more or less the same. There was a time when we weren't even going to delineate between SKS and Mosin ammo but after some "enthusiastic" discussions, 7.62x39 was added (thankfully :)).

So if we add a Makarov pistol, its going to simply fire 9mmP instead 9mmM. If we add an AK74, it'll fire 5.56mm, not 5.45mm. Thats why I haven't added those in. Those of us who are real gun nuts would revolt (but I have a feeling the wider community dosn't give a crap as long as it looks cool :)

 

 

[alexeistukov 272]

I can't wait until user MODs come out... i am frustrated enough with this shit. My brother and i already have plans on what to add (stored files on our computers). I will just play the game as is for now, but i CANNOT wait for MOD support to come out.. I can't believe that for a game based on realism and surviving (saying that the game is built to be very hard), is actually making it easier. Fewer calibers = fewer weapons and easier ways to tell what ammo is which. More calibers should force people to read more carefully... that's my input, I'm done with this discussion so go ahead and reply to me, but do not expect a reply from me. God Bless.....

Edited May 31, 2014 by AlexeiStukov

[SpardisJX 27]

Why not just give generic, blanket names to the different types of ammunition? That way there's less confusion.

Example: Handgun Bullets, Magnum Rounds, Rifle Ammo, etc.

Each type would vary in rarity. Handgun Bullets would probably be the most common, and everything else would be less and less common.

I'm not sure if this would be a great solution, but hey, I'm only thinking out loud here. Thoughts anyone?

[Katana67 2907]

I still fail to see the reason for any sort of compromise.

 

Then this post is not for you.

 

Pretty sure the 7.62x54R round is in the game, just labeled as 7.62, feeds right into the mosin ( granted I know so does the 7.62x51/.308 ), the ammo graphic even looks like 54R.

 

It's amalgamated. The description says 7.62x51, but the box and round appear to be 7.62x54R. But it's not in-game, it's an amalgam between the two. The Blaser B95 cannot be chambered for 7.62x54R in real life, conversely, the Mosin-Nagant is not commonly chambered in 7.62x51 NATO.

 

All i saw was... No 9x18

Srsly, what makes more sense here.. Double-barrel $1000000 rifles with American bullets, Modern .338 Sniper rifles, but no Ubiquitous Makarovs, CZs, APS, Skorpian, P-64s? Honestly... that makes no sense to me. 9x18 and 7.62x25 would allow for an entire line of weapons that fill different roles, fit the Scenario and are very "Survivor" like.

 

Well, if that's all you saw then I'm sorry?

 

You can still have Makarovs, CZs (whatever you mean by that), Skorpions, and the like... they'll just be firing 9x19 Parabellum. Some compromises have to be made (even though the majority of those weapons can be chambered in 9x19).

 

There's nothing more "survivor" like about 9x18 than .338 Lapua, they're hunks of brass, lead, and powder.

 

Why not just give generic, blanket names to the different types of ammunition? That way there's less confusion.

Example: Handgun Bullets, Magnum Rounds, Rifle Ammo, etc.

Each type would vary in rarity. Handgun Bullets would probably be the most common, and everything else would be less and less common.

I'm not sure if this would be a great solution, but hey, I'm only thinking out loud here. Thoughts anyone?

 

Well, that's the other side of the coin. But the same thing could be accomplished with this, and I think you'd end up with fewer rounds overall if you just put in the ones that are common in real-life. So for example, you don't have to have three different types of rounds for the DMRs, Battle Rifles, and GPMGs respectively... you can just have them all use Rare 7.62x51 NATO.

 

The problem is, to me, that 7.62x51 NATO is used in too many common weapon platforms now, that it can't ever be made properly rare as to suit the so-called "high-end" weapons that it's ALSO used in.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Katana67

[terminal_boy 860]

.30-'06, .338LM and .300WM aren't common in Europe. .338LM will only be found where NATO troops drop it as who else can afford $10 a shot?

What about all the metric rifle calibres?

No 9x18 ammo? In a former Warsaw Pact/Soviet nation? That like say no .25ACP in the USA.

[Katana67 2907]

.30-'06, .338LM and .300WM aren't common in Europe. .338LM will only be found where NATO troops drop it as who else can afford $10 a shot?

What about all the metric rifle calibres?

No 9x18 ammo? In a former Warsaw Pact/Soviet nation? That like say no .25ACP in the USA.

 

Again, this is for the purposes of balancing the loot. Not simulating pure realism.

 

And .30-06 and .300 WM are some of THE MOST common hunting calibers in the world.

 

Never mind that Russia does use .338 LM sniper rifles, and .338 LM is used by a MULTITUDE of European nations. And, it's also worth mentioning that it's proposed to be included as Rare anyhow.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Katana67