Melee Overhaul Idea - Choose Direction/Attack & Block

[agouti 105]

So I would like to propose two main ideas here regarding melee combat.

 

It seems in melee combat, the only thing to do is left click, which is attack.

 

I propose #1

 

Use of the right click as a means to block as a bare minimum.

 

#2

Use of a left side mouse button to attack from the left, while left click attacks from the right. Mouse wheel up is stab, and mouse wheel down is chop.

 

I feel this would make melee more interesting.

Edited May 21, 2014 by agouti

[Snivel 12]

You mean Chivalry medieval warfare melee system ? :p

I agree on being able to block, but that's all, there shouldnt be too many different attack types, it would be (i think) too much work for the devs for a useless result : what's the point of having a lot of different attacks in dayz ?

Swing/stab should be the only 2 melee attacks, and not on every weapon. (Stabbing with a wrench ? more like tickling your opponent to death :p )

[11tw 106]

The interface should never be more complex than the system can pull off. It is about balancing what is good with what is attainable. My ideal would be something like the system from the elder scrolls games, the swords and axes in that always felt seamless.

[ColonelBurton 145]

 

Stabbing with a wrench ? more like tickling your opponent to death

 

Even with a wrench there is always a point to using a variety of strikes, as with any object that is used as a weapon.

A downwards vertical swing for example concentrates force on a point like the head, but is easy to deflect and dodge. A horizontal swing can only be stopped by lunging forward and blocking in the weapon arm path or evaded by a backstep, since it covers a large area. A "stab" is quick but not effective and and has a small attack zone. So if you're holding a wrench in front of you and need quick protection because you don't have the time to prepare a full swing (say lift the wrench for a downward strike or pull it behind your shoulder for a horizontal swing) then the stab is the right move, even if all it does in that moment is buy you some time.

Holding a weapon and not attacking should raise chances at deflecting (or have a separate key for deflecting). On a separate note, when wielding a one-handed weapon like the machete it makes sense to carry a garbage can lid or other item as a shield. Back in the day we practised escrima using a stick in one hand and wielding a small backpack or bag in the other as shield. Whatever the case, MORE DEFENSE AND MELEE REALISM PLEASE!!!

 

 

Fist melee

Unarmed melee is one of the weak points of the game. I recently stood in a room holding a spade in my hand talking to a guy and he came up to me and knocked me out with one punch. He was fresh-spawn and I was "healthy". That is not on!

1.) Weaklings do not knock out experienced survivors in one punch

2.) The one punch knock out is a TV-myth and usually only works when the punch comes unexpectedly from the side or behind or if you're approaching your attacker (or if you're drunk). In the least case, a simple cross punch or jab punch is NOT sufficient for this. I have almost a decade of martial arts experience to back this claim up.

3.) When you're holding an object in front of you, this reduces the chance of getting hit. If you don't believe me, go up to some streetwise thug, give him a pocket knife and tell him you're going to knock him out in one punch. Be seein' ya!

4.) Beyond that, I wonder why my characters have higher chances at killing zombies with bare fists than with a crowbar. If you've ever been in a bare knuckle fist fight, you know that when not wearing gloves, chances are you're going to break a digit or bust a capsule when you hit a guy (not to mention when you miss and hit the wall or his spade or whatever). So let's face it. Bambis that attack using bare fists should have a high chance of breaking their hand which should hinder or slow down using any objects plus weaken any further blows dramatically. This would not only be realistic but get all the fools back in line, forcing them to outwit people they want to loot and not simply go straight for them like a lunatic.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm totally against bambi-power-gamers. Maybe this is why now everybody shoots on sight.

 

Gun melee: let's have pistol-whips and buttstrokes. I don't want to have to disarm my character to knock someone out. More non-lethal options, please.

[Avant-Garde 229]

Even with a wrench there is always a point to using a variety of strikes, as with any object that is used as a weapon.

A downwards vertical swing for example concentrates force on a point like the head, but is easy to deflect and dodge. A horizontal swing can only be stopped by lunging forward and blocking in the weapon arm path or evaded by a backstep, since it covers a large area. A "stab" is quick but not effective and and has a small attack zone. So if you're holding a wrench in front of you and need quick protection because you don't have the time to prepare a full swing (say lift the wrench for a downward strike or pull it behind your shoulder for a horizontal swing) then the stab is the right move, even if all it does in that moment is buy you some time.

Holding a weapon and not attacking should raise chances at deflecting (or have a separate key for deflecting). On a separate note, when wielding a one-handed weapon like the machete it makes sense to carry a garbage can lid or other item as a shield. Back in the day we practised escrima using a stick in one hand and wielding a small backpack or bag in the other as shield. Whatever the case, MORE DEFENSE AND MELEE REALISM PLEASE!!!

 

 

Fist melee

Unarmed melee is one of the weak points of the game. I recently stood in a room holding a spade in my hand talking to a guy and he came up to me and knocked me out with one punch. He was fresh-spawn and I was "healthy". That is not on!

1.) Weaklings do not knock out experienced survivors in one punch

2.) The one punch knock out is a TV-myth and usually only works when the punch comes unexpectedly from the side or behind or if you're approaching your attacker (or if you're drunk). In the least case, a simple cross punch or jab punch is NOT sufficient for this. I have almost a decade of martial arts experience to back this claim up.

3.) When you're holding an object in front of you, this reduces the chance of getting hit. If you don't believe me, go up to some streetwise thug, give him a pocket knife and tell him you're going to knock him out in one punch. Be seein' ya!

4.) Beyond that, I wonder why my characters have higher chances at killing zombies with bare fists than with a crowbar. If you've ever been in a bare knuckle fist fight, you know that when not wearing gloves, chances are you're going to break a digit or bust a capsule when you hit a guy (not to mention when you miss and hit the wall or his spade or whatever). So let's face it. Bambis that attack using bare fists should have a high chance of breaking their hand which should hinder or slow down using any objects plus weaken any further blows dramatically. This would not only be realistic but get all the fools back in line, forcing them to outwit people they want to loot and not simply go straight for them like a lunatic.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm totally against bambi-power-gamers. Maybe this is why now everybody shoots on sight.

 

Gun melee: let's have pistol-whips and buttstrokes. I don't want to have to disarm my character to knock someone out. More non-lethal options, please.

 

Dude you are my hero. This topic should get more attention Imo, since melee in this game is so bad.

 

The Elder Scrolls melee sucks just like DayZ's, Chivalry its the best example there is about melee, seriously, if you guys don't know it go look for it. It is really worthy

Edited August 2, 2014 by Avant-Garde

[arvinzd 10]

1+ for people that evading zombies by walk directly beside zeds position

[AnyoneInCherno? 187]

bit off topic, but does it seem that melee against zombies has gotten tougher?

[Avant-Garde 229]

bit off topic, but does it seem that melee against zombies has gotten tougher?

I would say it is quite broken. More than half of your hits will not register when you clearly hit, so it is a pretty artificial dificulty that we have now.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Avant-Garde

[AnyoneInCherno? 187]

I would say it is quite broken. More than half of your hits will not register when you clearly hit, so it is a pretty artificial dificulty that we have now.

pretty much,

 

ESPECIALLY the hoppers

 

god damn melee against them is impossible

[Avant-Garde 229]

pretty much,

 

ESPECIALLY the hoppers

 

god damn melee against them is impossible

True that, and I notice that they go through walls more often then the normal zombies too. Theese dudes are really scarry lol.

 

I would love a melee mechanics that would be something like a simplifield Chivalry: Medieval Warfare thing. I mean, it is really realistic and would add a lot of depth to this game

[AnyoneInCherno? 187]

True that, and I notice that they go through walls more often then the normal zombies too. Theese dudes are really scarry lol.

 

I would love a melee mechanics that would be something like a simplifield Chivalry: Medieval Warfare thing. I mean, it is really realistic and would add a lot of depth to this game

never played it. worth the money?

[Avant-Garde 229]

never played it. worth the money?

 

Best multiplayer competitive experience I had since Quake 3 and CS 1.6 man, its a really inovative and funny game, totally worthy. I have now like more then 1000 hours in that shit, lol.

 

Plus, its a really good example of a deep melee mechanics. DayZ already has that basic principle of the animation dealing the damage (diferent from TF2 melee, or the CS knife where it is like a zero range firearm with a knife/whatever skin). I belive its best to show you then try to explain with a bad writen text in broken english lol. Take a look man:

 

 

At the end of the vid he talks a bit over the real time strike system. It is beautifull ingame man, it makes things a lot deeper and complex. This series of videos this dude makes is great to see this game's melee mechanics, I can only dream with such mechanics in DayZ lol.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Avant-Garde

[AnyoneInCherno? 187]

Best multiplayer competitive experience I had since Quake 3 and CS 1.6 man, its a really inovative and funny game, totally worthy. I have now like more then 1000 hours in that shit, lol.

 

Plus, its a really good example of a deep melee mechanics. DayZ already has that basic principle of the animation dealing the damage (diferent from TF2 melee, or the CS knife where it is like a zero range firearm with a knife/whatever skin). I belive its best to show you then try to explain with a bad writen text in broken english lol. Take a look man:

 

 

At the end of the vid he talks a bit over the real time strike system. It is beautifull ingame man, it makes things a lot deeper and complex. This series of videos this dude makes is great to see this game's melee mechanics, I can only dream with such mechanics in DayZ lol.

Neat! Well, time for my steam wallet to bleed out a little more money... poor thing is still recovering from the summer sale

Edited August 3, 2014 by AnyoneInCherno?

[rybec 339]

You really can't say Chivalry has a deep melee system when Mount and Blade exists.

[Avant-Garde 229]

You really can't say Chivalry has a deep melee system when Mount and Blade exists.

Let the images talk for themselfs:

 

But this is getting off topic man, create a thread about it and we can discuss.

Fact is, melee in DayZ is shit tier and we need something better imo.

[rybec 339]

#2

Use of a left side mouse button to attack from the left, while left click attacks from the right. Mouse wheel up is stab, and mouse wheel down is chop.

 

But this is getting off topic man, create a thread about it and we can discuss.

Fact is, melee in DayZ is shit tier and we need something better imo.

Hardly off topic. M&B involves using the mouse to control what direction you're attacking from as opposed to just clicking. That's half of it. The blocking consists of moving your mouse in the correct direction to block as opposed to holding down the right mouse button.

[Avant-Garde 229]

Hardly off topic. M&B involves using the mouse to control what direction you're attacking from as opposed to just clicking. That's half of it. The blocking consists of moving your mouse in the correct direction to block as opposed to holding down the right mouse button.

Oh I understand now, sorry. I thought we were going to start a discussion about which game is better or more complex lol.

 

The blocking in Chivalry works the same way, you gotta look at the direction of the incoming attack and press rmb, so if its an overhead you gotta look up and parry. You can't hold your defense up unless with a shield, so you have to time your parries. I think that Chivalry's mechanic is closer to what we have in DayZ.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Avant-Garde

[Avant-Garde 229]

So what is your guys opinion over all this? Do you think it would be nice or bad, or even do you think it is necessary an overhaul? I mean, this is a core gameplay mechanic and Imo it is really bad, let us discuss this further!

[Bings (DayZ) 6]

I haven't played chivalry but I have played Mount and Blade and their melee system is great.  In a game where you spawn with nothing and find a melee weapon first, it's pretty important to have a decent melee system. At the very least some blocking would be appreciated.

[Avant-Garde 229]

Yeah it would be awesome, imagine a good melee system to use also when they add bayonet and things like that. Basic blocking/parrying would be really nice.

[King Raptor 191]

I seriously doubt the lagfest that is DayZ would allow for this kind of accurate combat.

On top of that, you'll just get shot.

Melee needs to be quick and easy. An afterthought, preferably. If they want to make it complex, make it like State of Decay.

[Avant-Garde 229]

Yeah that is very true lol, we need something simple but really functional and realistic

[Rigor Mortis (DayZ) 141]

I completely agree that we could use a good melee system for DayZ and I think two things will improve it:

 

1) Being able to see where your melee attack is actually going with some kind of 3d representation.  In the real world, you have full 3d perception of the things around you and tools that you are holding... in the game it's much harder to get that same level of understanding/feeling.  If they added some way to see where your weapon would hit in 3d in the game it would be great... even if it was some kind of floating 3d dotted line or similar unrealistic system.  I know some ppl might hate the idea, but you cant completely replicate reality in this circumstance, so you might just have to compromise.

 

2) Being able to control the direction of your attacks.  I think a simple click/drag/release will work for this.  just clicking would do a normal axe swing (or pitchfork poke or whatever) and dragging would give a directionality to the attack.  This way you could do overhead swings as well as horizontal arcs.

 

TBH I didn't read all the posts here so sorry if I repeated anyone's ideas.

[Avant-Garde 229]

I like your idea man, I said about Chivalry but in fact it is a very complex mechanic for this game's scope, imo its a nice "guide" on how to make a good and interesting melee mechanic. All I want is dynamic swings like we already have, where you better aim with the animation then with the crosshair, tthey just need to make the animations more trust worthy so we can stop lmb spaming and playing loto at every melee encounter

 

I understand that it is an alpha, and thats my fear. I don't want them to dumb down the melee combat in this game in order to be easier to implement, since it has a GREAT potential to be fucking awesome.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Avant-Garde

[ColonelBurton 145]

I seriously doubt the lagfest that is DayZ would allow for this kind of accurate combat.

On top of that, you'll just get shot.

 

You are totally wrong (apart from the lag thing)

 

An accurate combat system would even give smart and skilled players a fair chance at overcoming a guy armed with an Assault Rifle (for example luring the hunter indoors) - having said that, you can also block a melee ttack with an AR. There is a variety of martial arts systems that deal with situations like this (hand-pistol, hand-AR, hand-knife, hand-baton etc.) such as Krav Maga. I know that this is a bad example in a way because martial arts means years of training (then again, who has cardio like the chars in DayZ). But just to make an example of what is generally possible.

 

Also, hopefully in the final version, there will be more melee combat than in Alpha between players. Ammo should be harder to find, plus shooting around wildly should attract zombies from further away, and the zombies should not be too easy to defeat. Then again, if zombies are hard to defeat, being a skilled and/or smart player should compensate for that. Meaning we need a better melee system for player-zombie fights alone! Remember that this is still a zombie survival game and that zombie survival means having melee skills.