"We don't want your sniper rifle!"

[qww 287]

i liked this story, thanks for posting

[Tactical-Turtle 24]

i liked this story, thanks for posting

 

I'm glad you liked it, I was impressed with the revolver and i'm no super shooter.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

 

are you mentally challenged?

 

i just showed that the weapon is much more accurate IRL than any pistol is in the game, that have nothing to do with moving targets or user skill.

 

As i said in other topic: The weapon will always outshoot the shooter.

 

Try to make a grouping like that from 50 meters in the game, on a static target, and tell me if you can.

 

 

 

you know that this video was made back right after the magnum's release, when it had 3x the m4's muzzle velocity and damage, no bullet drop and was as accurate as a mosin, right?

 

they got a BIG nerf right after that.

 

Yes guns are more accurate in real life, however in real life the firing platform (you) is nowhere near as accurate as in a game.

[lipemr 160]

Yes guns are more accurate in real life, however in real life the firing platform (you) is nowhere near as accurate as in a game.

 

so we need to put random values in game, instead of adding sway to the guns?

 

The gun's supposed to shoot where it is pointed, you wont hit if you cant point it steadily, simple as that.

[EndOfDayZ 36]

Not really.. 40 meters in real life is a very small distance.

Yes 40m is a physically small distance, still far enough away to make instinctive or snap firing difficult with a handgun.

Accurately stimulating the accuracy of a weapon AND IT'S FIRER in a game will always be immensely difficult.

There are literally so many factors involved in accurate marksmanship that it is impossible to recreate in a fun and realistic way.

-Basic Mechanical Considerations-

Weapon Design and Condition

Ammo type and condition

External effects on the projectile (Gravity/Wind/Humidity etc)

Weapons natural 'cone of fire'

These (Among Others) will determine how accurate a weapon would be when fired from a vice or mechanical jig, in perfect conditions, without human input.

When a person is firing the weapon.

Firing position (Not just standing/kneeling/prone) the complete in depth details of a firers position, weight distribution, sight alignment, hand position, has a proper stable platform been established. You don't just point and shoot.

Shooter Skill, how experienced is a shooter with a particular weapons platform, aren't we everyday apocalypse survivors? Not perfectly drilled special forces soldiers with perfect techniques ingrained from countless hours at the range?

Weapon recoil and its effect on shooters.

Physical condition

Fatigue

Eyesight

Fear and adrenaline

Rates of fire

Speed of target acquisition and different fire types, are you taking deliberate well aimed shots at a stationary target, or bringing a weapon to your shoulder and firing rapidly at a moving target at range, while you move to cover?

Video games just need a happy middle ground between hitting where you are pointing, a bit of sway, and some dispersion (a fair amount not a wild random amount)

Then affect it by standing/kneeling/prone, or whether you are moving or stationary.

Realistic trajectory is always welcome, just needs a small amount of outside influence thrown at it to affect it.

I think BF4 is a good example, flame suit on standby haha.

[carlosdmc 27]

"We don't want your sniper rifle, fuck off!"

Thank you for the laughs. :)

[xalienax 621]

Yes guns are more accurate in real life, however in real life the firing platform (you) is nowhere near as accurate as in a game.

this is easy enough to simulate in game with Sway, forcing you to provide inputs to counter-act it and keep gun trained on target. sway can be exaggerated by injury/pain and exhertion from running.

 

"random" mechanics are not an acceptable way. you (the shooter) cant adapt. to sway the same way with practice and proper shooting positions you can better control your firearm in real-life. a considerable percentage of the outcome being detertmined by dumb luck in a game thats this time consuming and intensive is not acceptable AT ALL. so much so that i wont be playing SA untill it has arma 3-like weapon mechanics and throws the current system completely away.

[sokaku 50]

Dispersion is needed to add a bit of randomness to the result because take lipemr's example, how many people take that long in-game between shots, and what do you think the result would be rushing shots out faster? Even then his grouping isn't that remarkable and he's probably somewhat familiar with that gun. Now try that again after jogging around the block for 20 minutes in a potentially hostile environment where you know someone could be hunting you. Guaranteed you'd be harder-pressed/lucky to hit a head-sized target at 40m. Guns aren't about "the first bullet goes where it's pointed", between the time you start pulling a trigger and the bullet leaves the barrel there are all kinds of forces/counter-forces in-play that determine exactly what path that bullet will take. Human beings are not robotic firing platforms, and though some people can train themselves to come close, it's a not reasonable assumption that a character in this game would have anywhere near that level of timing and skill.

 

Even if they introduced dispersion after the first shot (reticle bloom) you don't want first-shots too accurate because often it just takes 1 shot to take someone down and the game devolves to a twitch-shooter where the penalty only applies if you miss your first shot. I prefer games with dispersion randomness added, even if it sometimes doesn't work in your favour it's probably the fairest thing to handicap mouse-snapping accuracy to something that more reasonably reflects real-world accuracy.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

this is easy enough to simulate in game with Sway, forcing you to provide inputs to counter-act it and keep gun trained on target. sway can be exaggerated by injury/pain and exhertion from running.

 

"random" mechanics are not an acceptable way. you (the shooter) cant adapt. to sway the same way with practice and proper shooting positions you can better control your firearm in real-life. a considerable percentage of the outcome being detertmined by dumb luck in a game thats this time consuming and intensive is not acceptable AT ALL. so much so that i wont be playing SA untill it has arma 3-like weapon mechanics and throws the current system completely away.

However,  sway is not cheat proof, spread being server side, is.

[xalienax 621]

However,  sway is not cheat proof, spread being server side, is.

nothing is 100% "cheat proof" other then making it single-player lol. actually no you can still cheat your self by modding your own game....

 

Making combat in a game like this dependant on luck is NOT an acceptable way to beat botters/hackers/cheats.

 

first, they need to implement better detection measuers for modified files and hooks, etc.

second, you can never beat ever single hacker out there- what you can do is keep up to date with evolving comercially avilable cheats and widespread hacks/cheats and update the detection systems acordingly. that gets rid of the VAST MAJORITY, who simply hit google, find something to buy/download and use it.

[sokaku 50]

so we need to put random values in game, instead of adding sway to the guns?

 

The gun's supposed to shoot where it is pointed, you wont hit if you cant point it steadily, simple as that.

 

Random numbers are a quick fix. Weapon sway is coming up according to the videos I've seen from the development side of things. They are adjusting it so that changing view your head will keep up with your mouse, but your aim (dot) and iron-sights will lag behind. The larger/longer the weapon, the longer the delay. This will make pistols a lot more effective in CQs, and should also prompt them to tone down the default dispersion. It should also open the door for SMGs, or bull-pup ARs for building-to-building engagements.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

nothing is 100% "cheat proof" other then making it single-player lol. actually no you can still cheat your self by modding your own game....

 

Making combat in a game like this dependant on luck is NOT an acceptable way to beat botters/hackers/cheats.

 

first, they need to implement better detection measuers for modified files and hooks, etc.

second, you can never beat ever single hacker out there- what you can do is keep up to date with evolving comercially avilable cheats and widespread hacks/cheats and update the detection systems acordingly. that gets rid of the VAST MAJORITY, who simply hit google, find something to buy/download and use it.

Some things are completely cheat/hack proof, if you do not supply an information to the client, it cannot "guess" it, if you do not send to the client the positions of players that are outside the maximum view distance, a cheat tool cannot use that information to, lets say make a live map of all the players on the server.

 

The first line of defense against cheating is to avoid providing to the client informations it does not need and to retrict client -> server communication to what is strictly necessary to play. ex: why would the player tell the server where he is? This is something a hacker can manipulate. Instead, make the client simply say wether it's walking, running, strafing, which direction it is facing. Good luck making a teleport hack if all the server accept from you is whether you are walking or running.

 

Likewise for guns, even if someone is using an aimbot, even if the target is glued to the crosshair due to this, if it's too far away it simply won't hit because the server will apply a random spread to every firing vectors the player supply.

 

 

It's the same as a password window telling you "invalid username or password as an error message", it doesn't tell you if the username is wrong/misspelled or if it's the password, because you don't need to know that if you are a legitimate user.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Lady Kyrah

[xalienax 621]

Some things are completely cheat/hack proof, if you do not supply an information to the client, it cannot "guess" it, if you do not send to the client the positions of players that are outside the maximum view distance, a cheat tool cannot use that information to, lets say make a live map of all the players on the server.

 

The first line of defense against cheating is to avoid providing to the client informations it does not need and to retrict client -> server communication to what is strictly necessary to play. ex: why would the player tell the server where he is? This is something a hacker can manipulate. Instead, make the client simply say wether it's walking, running, strafing, which direction it is facing. Good luck making a teleport hack if all the server accept from you is whether you are walking or running.

 

Likewise for guns, even if someone is using an aimbot, even if the target is glued to the crosshair due to this, if it's too far away it simply won't hit because the server will apply a random spread to every firing vectors the player supply.

 

 

It's the same as a password window telling you "invalid username or password as an error message", it doesn't tell you if the username is wrong/misspelled or if it's the password, because you don't need to know that if you are a legitimate user.

these things are effective against garden variety "hackers".. err more over script kiddies.

 

In a world where corporations with bigger wallets then both BIS and all the approved GSP's combined, AND have the best AV + firewall softeware money can buy AND dedicated IT security professionals and STILL get hacked im confident nothing is beyond the outer scope of reason. Likely no, heck you may be able to provide 99% security, but the idea that you can ever be 100% safe is pushing it imho. the question becomes practicality- you put the means beyond the scope of what the average PO'd gamer or code junkey can pull off.

 

 

Also, i dont think anyones against MINOR deviation where say you might miss something thats beyond your maximum draw distance when aimed to center mass.

 

What we ARE 100% against is the sorts of deviation levels used as a means of weapon balance and/or to add value to these attachments. its the fact that they have put it to Arcade shooter levels, used attachments as modifiers to it, and that it plays a significant role in the average engagement that makes it a problem.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

these things are effective against garden variety "hackers".. err more over script kiddies.

 

In a world where corporations with bigger wallets then both BIS and all the approved GSP's combined, AND have the best AV + firewall softeware money can buy AND dedicated IT security professionals and STILL get hacked im confident nothing is beyond the outer scope of reason. Likely no, heck you may be able to provide 99% security, but the idea that you can ever be 100% safe is pushing it imho. the question becomes practicality- you put the means beyond the scope of what the average PO'd gamer or code junkey can pull off.

 

 

Also, i dont think anyones against MINOR deviation where say you might miss something thats beyond your maximum draw distance when aimed to center mass.

 

What we ARE 100% against is the sorts of deviation levels used as a means of weapon balance and/or to add value to these attachments. its the fact that they have put it to Arcade shooter levels, used attachments as modifiers to it, and that it plays a significant role in the average engagement that makes it a problem.

Oh you ment in the grand scheme of things, then yeah nothing is truly secure. Still the first line of defence is that in a game the server should assume that every client is trying to cheat.

[xalienax 621]

Oh you ment in the grand scheme of things, then yeah nothing is truly secure. Still the first line of defence is that in a game the server should assume that every client is trying to cheat.

i agree with you, up untill you begin compromising the game play in a way that makes it not based on skill, but rather luck.

 things already discussed by the devs like the "network bubble" which means you dont send or recieve any info about anything beyond a certain distance form your character. this defeats map-wide ESP hacks, script-killing the enitre server, teleporting (to some extent), etc.

 

there is much to be done in the way of security, but when you sacrifice gameplay quality becuase its easier to make a "dumb luck" mechanic secure, you need to seriously evaluate your priorities.

[Bambi Population Control 90]

Of course they don't no one wants your fucking sniper rifle.

[blacklabel79 949]

Of course they don't no one wants your fucking sniper rifle.

 

....lol exactly...

[Sutinen 635]

Yes 40m is a physically small distance, still far enough away to make instinctive or snap firing difficult with a handgun.

Accurately stimulating the accuracy of a weapon AND IT'S FIRER in a game will always be immensely difficult.

There are literally so many factors involved in accurate marksmanship that it is impossible to recreate in a fun and realistic way.

-Basic Mechanical Considerations-

Weapon Design and Condition

Ammo type and condition

External effects on the projectile (Gravity/Wind/Humidity etc)

Weapons natural 'cone of fire'

These (Among Others) will determine how accurate a weapon would be when fired from a vice or mechanical jig, in perfect conditions, without human input.

When a person is firing the weapon.

Firing position (Not just standing/kneeling/prone) the complete in depth details of a firers position, weight distribution, sight alignment, hand position, has a proper stable platform been established. You don't just point and shoot.

Shooter Skill, how experienced is a shooter with a particular weapons platform, aren't we everyday apocalypse survivors? Not perfectly drilled special forces soldiers with perfect techniques ingrained from countless hours at the range?

Weapon recoil and its effect on shooters.

Physical condition

Fatigue

Eyesight

Fear and adrenaline

Rates of fire

Speed of target acquisition and different fire types, are you taking deliberate well aimed shots at a stationary target, or bringing a weapon to your shoulder and firing rapidly at a moving target at range, while you move to cover?

Video games just need a happy middle ground between hitting where you are pointing, a bit of sway, and some dispersion (a fair amount not a wild random amount)

Then affect it by standing/kneeling/prone, or whether you are moving or stationary.

Realistic trajectory is always welcome, just needs a small amount of outside influence thrown at it to affect it.

I think BF4 is a good example, flame suit on standby haha.

Not questioning that and now when I read your post again you are absolutely right. I didn't even see the "head-sized" part of it.

[zeroy 240]

Impossible.  There is too much dispersion to make a shot like that.  :rolleyes:

 

Try it on Zombie, Headshot at 50meters, done it several times.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Try it on Zombie, Headshot at 50meters, done it several times.

Sarcasm bro.  Poking fun at those who want to play soldier and be elite snipers with every weapon

[TheLast-StaR 16]

I've been hip firing zombies from 10 ft and dropping them from twice that range ADS. The magnum is a beast.

[cuddly_rabbit 102]

luck, i guess.

 

and 40 meters with a pistol should be a easy-as-fuck shot

Are you kidding me?

It definitely is not an easy shot at all.

And a moving target would be very very hard to hit.