Why does the cross bow do more damage than the m4?

[GunnyITA 107]

Well...Over 14 pages of maths, kinetics, physics and youporn, what people are asking with this post? Being able to kill with 2 bolts or make the M4 more OP than now?

[Whyherro123 2283]

 

As said by  UltimateGentleman the gel test is not accurate test as human tissues and muscles are differents from the gel

 

As Said by Gotrek during medioeval era the Crossbow were used to pierce iron plate armor  which arrows can penetrate side by side.

 

I gave you a video of a top high end crossbow that can grind your flesh with a single bolt....grinds that neither the arrows on FIRST BLOOD PART 2 were able to do.

 

 

So if you want to cry more because you find outragious that a skilled player PWN you with a crossbow with a single bolt....then cry.

But i wish to remind you how difficult is to kill someone with the blaze 95....now imagine that you are going to do the same with a weapon that must be one shoot one kill. If you fail you are dead.  Doesn't it is correct to reward people that hit a guy in the chest with a kill?....As said above, a bolt with ancients crossbow were able to pierce side by side an iron plate armor.

 

 

Nah uh? it should not be 1 shoot 1 kill for you? ....ahhhhw, what such a whims.

 

 

 

 

1) Plate armor wasn't made out of iron. It was made out of very high quality steel. And it was very effective, capable of deflecting bullets from early cavalry pistols (not the carabines, that is a different story) And the deflection comes mainly not from the steel, but from the curved plates and ridges of the armor itself, directing the force away from the plate so the projectile doesn't strike the plate "perpendicularly". 

And, even before guns, field plate was perfectly capable of deflecting bolts. It was the earlier mail coats and "coat of plates" armor that couldn't deflect arrows and bolts, and even those would only penetrate at close range.

 

2) I just one-shot-killed a player using the Blaze 95 the other day. One bullet to the upper torso, from 200 meters. Sucker dropped like a sack of potatoes. What now?

[-Gews- 7443]

make the M4 more OP than now?

This. It should be both more accurate and more powerful.

[taco86 156]

 

I gave you a video of a top high end crossbow that can grind your flesh with a single bolt....grinds that neither the arrows on FIRST BLOOD PART 2 were able to do.

 

You gave me a video that's been linked many times already showing a specific tactical "xbow" (btw it actually fires arrows not bolts) shooting through car doors as some kind of evidence that a modern xbow firing bolts is more powerful than a HV rifle?  I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here...  Are you actually, seriously claiming that a 400gr broad head bolt moving 350 fps will cause more significant wounds than a 55gr projectile moving at 3,000 fps, or 62gr projectile moving at 2900 fps?.  If you are, you're just as intentionally misinformed as the rest of the poster with this same position...

 

Put your ego on hold for a second and you may actually learn something...

Edited May 4, 2014 by taco86

[GunnyITA 107]

This. It should be both more accurate and more powerful.

 

 

More? this so bastard spray and pray weapon everyone going to loot?

 

I don't send you where i wish to or they going to report me, even if i'm angry because they killed me in a military base like 10 mins ago.

Everyone has an M4, and you have the courage to complain?!? 

Everyone going on a fucking military base! Even me that i need a backup weapon as i have the Crossbow. Why?

Because I want to pick a damn god handgun i can't find in any decent place because in THIS GAME ARE MORE COMMONS THE RIFLE THAN THE HANDGUNS!

 

These are the things to discuss...not the bullshits. Now i understand while i use the vocal chat in game i hear people not above 15 years.

 

...m4 more powerful...the hell what i've got to read. I should scratch my testicles with the sandpaper

Edited May 4, 2014 by GunnyITA

[kylesaysthings 44]

I should scratch my testicles with the sandpaper

This is the smartest thing you've written here.

[Whyherro123 2283]

More? this so bastard spray and pray weapon everyone going to loot?

 

I don't send you where i wish to or they going to report me, even if i'm angry because they killed me in a military base like 10 mins ago.

Everyone has an M4, and you have the courage to complain?!? 

Everyone going on a fucking military base! Even me that i need a backup weapon as i have the Crossbow. Why?

Because I want to pick a damn god handgun i can't find in any decent place because in THIS GAME ARE MORE COMMONS THE RIFLE THAN THE HANDGUNS!

 

These are the things to discuss...not the bullshits. Now i understand while i use the vocal chat in game i hear people not above 15 years.

 

...m4 more powerful...the hell what i've got to read. I should scratch my testicles with the sandpaper

In real life, there is no "balance" among weapons. The M16/M4 platform is ubiquitous in the modern world, to the point where numerous countries, even former Eastern-Bloc ones, use the weapon or it's many derivatives. 

The M4 is far from being a piece of shit, even (especially) compared to the AK platform. It does not have a much higher chance of malfunction/jamming compared to other weapons, so long as it is properly maintained. Even the AK needs to be disassembled and cleaned. The M4 is accurate, powerful, lightweight and reliable. It can be modified like nobodies business, capable of accepting multiple accessories,  sights, stocks, and even calibers, where the barrel is removed and switched out, which can be done with the removal of only two pins.  The STANAG magazines can be used in almost every single NATO-compliant rifle, even in your own country I believe. 

The M4 in-game is a horrible mockery of what the M4 in real life is capable of. The M4 IRL is not even capable of "spray and pray", only single-shot and 3 round burst fire. Only the M4A1 (the special forces version) is capable of fully cyclic fire. I have no idea why the M4A1 is in-game, while the standard M4 isn't.

[taco86 156]

 I have no idea why the M4A1 is in-game, while the standard M4 isn't.

Marines started fielding the m4a1 in i think 2009.  As you also stated, it's very commonly used by spec ops circles within the US and several other nato nations which could certainly explain their presence.  USMC plays a very significant role in arma2 which some say dayz's lore is based off of.  IMO, the existence of the m4a1 makes far more sense than that of the m4.  I'd much rather a full length ar-15 like the m16a4 or mk12spr be the semi auto 5.56 rifle.

Edited May 4, 2014 by taco86

[-Gews- 7443]

Everyone has an M4, and you have the courage to complain?!?

Don't care who has it or how much better it is than your crossbow or SKS. I want the game's weapons to mimic their real life counterparts as close as possible.

Anyways, who said it should be common? The best weapons in the game shouldn't be commonly seen.

[GunnyITA 107]

This is the smartest thing you've written here.

 

Be grateful to be behind a keyboard

Edited May 4, 2014 by GunnyITA

[GunnyITA 107]

Don't care who has it or how much better it is than your crossbow or SKS. I want the game's weapons to mimic their real life counterparts as close as possible.

Anyways, who said it should be common? The best weapons in the game shouldn't be commonly seen.

 

 

M4 is common...because it has been looted by everyone. Everyone goes to Military base during nighttime with high gamma or during the morning when nobody plays.

Everyone goes there and get the backpack plus a M4.

 

best choice in game are 2: M4 or Mosin......M4 actually gives you a great mid range shooting, and if you feel to lack on range, just wait some more metres before shooting! You are not forced to shoot at 300 metres at all costs!

 

Plus the Acog zoom better than the 3.5 for SKS.

 

What do you want more than this?!

[-Gews- 7443]

What do you want more than this?!

It's not about wanting "more" :rolleyes: the gun is not accurately portrayed.

[GunnyITA 107]

It's not about wanting "more" :rolleyes: the gun is not accurately portrayed.

 

 

And there are 15 pages about this OP weapon while other broken weapons are REALLY NOT ACCURATELY PORTRAYED without the attention they must receive?

 

 

And it's not because i think M4 is OP. The others aren't fixed....M4 is really fine as it is! It's the only weapon in this 160 hours that killed me along with the mosin. So that, if people think is not accurately portrayed then they won't loot it.

Edited May 4, 2014 by GunnyITA

[taco86 156]

And there are 15 pages about this OP weapon while other broken weapons are REALLY NOT ACCURATELY PORTRAYED without the attention they must receive?

 

 

then go make a thread about the issues with those other weapons....  Stop trying to hijack this thread...

[-Gews- 7443]

And there are 15 pages about this OP weapon while other broken weapons are REALLY NOT ACCURATELY PORTRAYED without the attention they must receive?

 

 

And it's not because i think M4 is OP. The others aren't fixed....M4 is really fine as it is! It's the only weapon in this 160 hours that killed me along with the mosin. So that, if people think is not accurately portrayed then they won't loot it.

 

 

 

If I buy a racing game and the Ferrari 599 GTO has a top speed of 140 mph and goes 0-60 mph in 5.5 seconds, I will complain. That car should have a top speed of 208 mph and it should reach 0-60 mph in 3.7 seconds.

 

If someone says "it doesn't need to go faster! it's already the fastest car in the game!" that is meaningless to me. I don't care if the only other cars are Honda Accords and Toyota Corollas, and I don't care if the 599 GTO wins every race. The 599 GTO should have the correct values regardless.

 

 

The same thing with DayZ. The M4A1 does not have the correct values. Capisce?

[GunnyITA 107]

If I buy a racing game and the Ferrari 599 GTO has a top speed of 140 mph and goes 0-60 mph in 5.5 seconds, I will complain. That car should have a top speed of 208 mph and it should reach 0-60 mph in 3.7 seconds.

 

If someone says "it doesn't need to go faster! it's already the fastest car in the game!" that is meaningless to me. I don't care if the only other cars are Honda Accords and Toyota Corollas, and I don't care if the 599 GTO wins every race. The 599 GTO should have the correct values regardless.

 

 

The same thing with DayZ. The M4A1 does not have the correct values. Capisce?

 

 

Right 20 mins ago my friend killed 3 people in Factory, near Berezino...with an m4...they had 2 simonov and 1 sporter

then go make a thread about the issues with those other weapons....  Stop trying to hijack this thread...

 

 

Doing...and i also make feedback instead of whims

[-Gews- 7443]

Right 20 mins ago my friend killed 3 people in Factory, near Berezino...with an m4...they had 2 simonov and 1 sporter

 

And this proves the current values are appropriate how...?

[ColdHeat 59]

a simple formula:

 

5.56 > 7,62 when we talk about distance

7,62 > 5,56 when we talk about damage

 

Have you heard about the rising demand of 7.62 for afghanistan, because at the distances they fight, 5.56 doesn't suffice anymore? The real drawbacks of 7.62 are the blowback which will effect your rate of fire and accuracy as well as the lower magazine capacity. Yet on the bright side, you can shoot through the tree behind which your opponent is hiding.

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the M4 discussion: I'm no fan of it and think it is only still in service because of reasons from the "lowest bidder" over to "a national symbol". The latter point is possibly also the reason why we have one in this game despite the clear east european scenario. The breech block is under extreme pressure and the stopping power leaves something to be desired on close as well as larger ranges. I'd prefer the M16 over it and realiabilty wise a lot of other weapons even over the M16. The M16/M4 ain't as bad as it's reputation anymore regarding reliability in more extreme conditions when confronted with sand, biting cold, mud or water during a conflict but why take it when you can have guns that are even better? Yet the biggest drawback in regards of jams is still the gas piston to me. But that just aside.

 

The M4 ingame is a disgrace to it's real counterpart and should be severely buffed once we have more makeshift arms in the game, so they can lower the rate at which firearms can be found and where EVERY firearm is already something incredible valuable.. even a Sporter, IZH or Blaze.

Edited May 4, 2014 by ColdHeat

[GunnyITA 107]

Don't buff this gun...it is good as it is. Fix the others first. Then add more, then fix each one everyone is going to be added.

 

Too way m4 = OP, otherwise people won't server hopping to get it.

[Gabe Newell 45]

energy beats speed

a bullet is fast

but an arrow has energy

energy penetrates better than speed

the more you know :)

[taco86 156]

Gabe, my beloved valve gluttony master.  A "low energy" bullet like a 9mm fmj has about 4x the energy of a bolt fired from a 150 lb crossbow...  A .308 has close to 30x the energy of the same bolt...  Velocity is an extremely important factor in determining the amount of energy an object has...

 

1/2mv^2

 

m855a1 out of a m16a4 produces (62gr 3,150+ fps) 1370 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle...

 

425gr arrow fired out of the "Tactical Assault Crossbow" at 400 fps shown in the video linked a couple pages back produces 151 ft/lbs of energy...

 

"Penetration" has far more to do with center sectional density and composition of the projectile.

 

 

As for "lethality" an arrow or bolt is far more efficient in terms of required energy to sever tissue, so it's not as simple as just comparing KE.

Edited May 5, 2014 by taco86

[UltimateGentleman 355]

Most of you are saying that 5.56 rounds can rip people in half and stuff but aren't explaining why bullets don't go right through much of the time.

Bullets have a way higher velocity, and more power but it easily gets defused by tissue, which is why if you get shot in the arm the bullet will stay there most of the time or practically anywhere non vital.

 

A bolt unless it hits bone keeps going until the fletches reach the skin, their power is not so easily defused.

 

 

Also a 15th century crossbow is not comparable to one today, draw distance might be nearly the same or equal but back then they didn't have the kind of high tension fibres we use in the strings so that's an invalid comparison.

 

 

As for the M4, I don't give a shit about it's stats it should not be more powerful than it is. Even if they made it rarer it's still going to spawn in the same place, maybe you won't find a hanger full of them but you're still likely to find one and if not server hop until you. Everyone will just do that until they have one.

Why should it be more powerful when you can spray 40 rounds at people? They might as well add a minigun in while they're at it, for fairness against new spawns y'know.

Making it more powerful would make the game suck unless every other gun got an equivalent buff which would similarly suck balls.

[I think my Leg is Broken 46]

 

From the change log under Known Issues:

 

• Crossbow damage higher than desired

 

 

I'm aware that this thread was started before 0.44 went stable, but this was the first thing that went through my mind when I saw the title. Can't believe I had to go through 10 pages before someone actually mentioned it? Sure, there's been some interesting exposition on the subject of crossbows vs guns, but isn't this the main thing that should be kept in mind?

 

I think there's a general consensus that the weapons are currently unbalanced and unrealistic in a some ways, and the devs obviously know this. I'm sure they're planning on addressing it at some point, and I hope they will take some of the points raised here into consideration. Not really sure why the melee weapons ended up so nerfed in 0.44, but I guess it's just something they changed and didn't have time to revert back or missed before release.

 

Also can I just add that after having seen the crossbow in action, it's pretty damn sweet! I hope it won't get nerfed too much. I wanna be able to peg a zed in the head/chest and take it out quietly in one shot and not have to use 2-3 bolts/arrows to take it down. Though even that wouldn't be so bad once you can retrieve your ammo properly! Looking forward to hunting, too.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Most of you are saying that 5.56 rounds can rip people in half and stuff but aren't explaining why bullets don't go right through much of the time.

Bullets have a way higher velocity, and more power but it easily gets defused by tissue, which is why if you get shot in the arm the bullet will stay there most of the time or practically anywhere non vital.

 

A bolt unless it hits bone keeps going until the fletches reach the skin, their power is not so easily defused.

 

 

Also a 15th century crossbow is not comparable to one today, draw distance might be nearly the same or equal but back then they didn't have the kind of high tension fibres we use in the strings so that's an invalid comparison.

 

 

As for the M4, I don't give a shit about it's stats it should not be more powerful than it is. Even if they made it rarer it's still going to spawn in the same place, maybe you won't find a hanger full of them but you're still likely to find one and if not server hop until you. Everyone will just do that until they have one.

Why should it be more powerful when you can spray 40 rounds at people? They might as well add a minigun in while they're at it, for fairness against new spawns y'know.

Making it more powerful would make the game suck unless every other gun got an equivalent buff which would similarly suck balls.

Do you realize what would happen if you took a 7.62x51mm round to the chest or the gut? You would be dead. There wouldn't be any "hurriedly bandage, then eat some food to get back to healthy". A .22LR round to the arm will kill you (eventually, through blood loss and shock), not just sting and tickle, like it does in-game.

Guns KILL. That is what they are designed for, and what their sole purpose is. Their purpose is not to be balanced against other guns. A .22LR will kill you as dead as a 7.62mm, especially in a situation where there is little to no antibiotics (oral antibiotics do jack shit, unless you get the really good stuff) or advanced medical care.

Day Z is like life, as in, IT IS NOT FAIR. It is not designed to be fair. If you are a newspawn, and want that shiny new M4 that guy is carrying about, go take it. Other weapons shouldn't be nerfed, or buffed, to make up for the supposed supremacy of the M4 carbine.

[UltimateGentleman 355]

Do you realize what would happen if you took a 7.62x51mm round to the chest or the gut? You would be dead. There wouldn't be any "hurriedly bandage, then eat some food to get back to healthy". A .22LR round to the arm will kill you (eventually, through blood loss and shock), not just sting and tickle, like it does in-game.

Guns KILL. That is what they are designed for, and what their sole purpose is. Their purpose is not to be balanced against other guns. A .22LR will kill you as dead as a 7.62mm, especially in a situation where there is little to no antibiotics (oral antibiotics do jack shit, unless you get the really good stuff) or advanced medical care.

Day Z is like life, as in, IT IS NOT FAIR. It is not designed to be fair. If you are a newspawn, and want that shiny new M4 that guy is carrying about, go take it. Other weapons shouldn't be nerfed, or buffed, to make up for the supposed supremacy of the M4 carbine.

 

Yeah but an M4 doesn't use 7.62x51mm rounds, it's are a lot weaker.

No way should they do anything close to the same rounds a Mosin or SKS uses.

 

Never said anything about the 7.62 rounds they're pretty much ok nothing can rapid fire 40 of them so it's not too overpowered to have them but an M4 just takes no skill to use and does too much damage, with all the gear people wear it shouldn't mutilate them in a couple of shots.