Why does the cross bow do more damage than the m4?

[taco86 156]

The question is in the title.  I'm seriously wondering why the cross bow is a one hit to the chest with it's 100ish ft/lbs of energy...  In comparison, the m4 takes several body/chest shots yet it has over 1,200 ft/lbs of energy?  Realistically an arrow/bolt wound is childs play compared to high velocity rifle wounds.

 

P.S. This is not a "buff m4" request, the m4 was simply used as an example.

 

[Dchil 829]

ft/lbs =/= F/S

ft/lbs = torque

f/s = speed

 

Sure a 556 round goes fast but it is tiny in mass compared to an arrow going much slower. If speed was everything then the 500 magnum wouldn't be the most powerful handgun in the world, a wildcat that uses a 9mm sized bullet (.357 sig for example) would be.

[taco86 156]

It's about energy dude, and the capacity for the projectile to dump that energy...  While an arrow or a bolt certainly is more efficient in terms of lethality per unit of energy, a cross bow bolt is still childs play compared to a 5.56 or really an HV rifle...  As for "Speed not being everything" in terms of most modern military rounds, it really is...  Projectiles are not indestructible and will yaw and disintegrate when hitting seemingly soft things when moving at such great velocities.  The result is that the surface area of the projectile  Rapidly increases resulting in massive and rapid energy dump...  This is what causes such nasty permanent and temorary wound cavities when compared to lower velocity handgun rounds.

 

Btw, the  .500 magnum is the "most powerfull PRODUCTION" handgun in the world because it fires a 400gr projectile at over 1,800 ft/s, resulting in close to 3,000 ft/lbs of energy...  In comparison, a .44 magnum (a very powerfull handgun) produces less than half of that with most loads...  It's powerfull because of a combination of mass and velocity

 

 

Take a look at what happens to ballistic gel when hit by high velocity rifle fire...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOYPxiRldaE

Edited April 19, 2014 by taco86

[Electi 149]

Let me explain, size of the bullet is damn small, and it only make holes in body that will cause bleeding.

Arrow/bolt is much bigger and if range is adequate it kills constantly if hit in head/neck/top part of torso 

BUT in real life 

You can make even 100 holes in arms/legs, and because of adrenalin human will not feel pain, he will simply lose blood, or if tendo/ligamentum is dmg, some movements will not be avaible, but human will stay alive.
Almost constant death(few seconds,because even if you shot someone in heart, he will be alive for a few seconds(not in 100%, but it's possible)) is available only if you hit 

A)Neurus Vagus

B)Heart

C)Brain
D)Medulla oblangata(aka spine brain)

100% death should be Liver dmg, because you will not be able to stop bleeding..

That's another sad fact about DayZ, It's still a not a simulator, in dayz humans made like from quentin tarantino movies (left one mean skin, right - blood above 200 bar pressure)

Edited April 19, 2014 by Electi

[gannon46 788]

because its boss I would rather be shot honestly then shot with any arrow be it homemade or hunting.just like I'd rather be shot than stabbed.

[gannon46 788]

Let me explain, size of the bullet is damn small, and it only make holes in body that will cause bleeding.

Arrow/bolt is much bigger and if range is adequate it kills constantly if hit in head/neck/top part of torso 

BUT in real life 

You can make even 100 holes in arms/legs, and because of adrenalin human will not feel pain, he will simply lose blood, or if tendo/ligamentum is dmg, some movements will not be avaible, but human will stay alive.

Almost constant death(few seconds,because even if you shot someone in heart, he will be alive for a few seconds(not in 100%, but it's possible)) is available only if you hit 

A)Neurus Vagus

B)Heart

C)Brain

D)Medulla oblangata(aka spine brain)

100% death should be Liver dmg, because you will not be able to stop bleeding..

That's another sad fact about DayZ, It's still a not a simulator, in dayz humans made like from quentin tarantino movies (left one mean skin, right - blood above 200 bar pressure)

what if I hit a man in the liver with a crossbow I'm sure he would die. if I hit a man in any important organ he should die regardless if its a 556 or a bolt/arrow. I agree they should make it more realistic then you will never hear death creeping up on you......hence the crossbow/bow 

[taco86 156]

You would rather be shot than stabbed?  Now to each their own, but I find that extremely confusing...

[SFRGaming 718]

You would rather be shot than stabbed?  Now to each their own, but I find that extremely confusing...

Stabbing causes a much more pain inducing large-cavity wound that is much slower and more damaging than a bullet. I would rather be shot than stabbed myself.

[Electi 149]

Stabbing causes a much more pain inducing large-cavity wound that is much slower and more damaging than a bullet. I would rather be shot than stabbed myself.

how about the deep of the wound? Because bullet can stuck in bone(and can cause crack), but cut will only dmg skin(ofc. it's depending what are you using for cut, a kitchen knife or an medival sword

Edited April 19, 2014 by Electi

[stuligin 18]

So far, this post has shown a lot of people are pretty silly. Bullet over bow every time.

[taco86 156]

Stabbing causes a much more pain inducing large-cavity wound that is much slower and more damaging than a bullet. I would rather be shot than stabbed myself.

What are you even talking about?  Knife wound causing more pain and a larger cavity wound than a bullet?  You're nuts man and talking nonsense.  A knife generally leaves a very "controlled" and predictable wound pattern that is relatively easy to treat in comparison to gun shot wounds...  A wound from a modern HV military rifle leaves a very chaotic wound channel making them very difficult to treat...  Lets not forget that the tissue surrounding the permanent wound channel of the bullet has just eaten 50+ gs and been turned to bloody mush as well...

Edited April 19, 2014 by taco86

[pale1776 375]

Because its a 2 and a half foot long CHUNK OF WOOD goin about as fast as a .357

Buuuut, I do know that they pull ballistics out of a bucket full of random numbers sooo...

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Try firing off a 60 crossbow bolts in 5 seconds.

 

Also, a bolt travels much slower than a bullet, but it weighs much more, It's quite possible to develop similar levels of kenetic energy with a crossbow as with chemically propelled firearms.

[pale1776 375]

Let me explain, size of the bullet is damn small, and it only make holes in body that will cause bleeding.

Arrow/bolt is much bigger and if range is adequate it kills constantly if hit in head/neck/top part of torso

BUT in real life

You can make even 100 holes in arms/legs, and because of adrenalin human will not feel pain, he will simply lose blood, or if tendo/ligamentum is dmg, some movements will not be avaible, but human will stay alive.

Almost constant death(few seconds,because even if you shot someone in heart, he will be alive for a few seconds(not in 100%, but it's possible)) is available only if you hit

A)Neurus Vagus

B)Heart

C)Brain

D)Medulla oblangata(aka spine brain)

100% death should be Liver dmg, because you will not be able to stop bleeding..

That's another sad fact about DayZ, It's still a not a simulator, in dayz humans made like from quentin tarantino movies (left one mean skin, right - blood above 200 bar pressure)

Actually, the medula oblangata makes death instantaneous, meaning ZERO movement after its destroyed. Thats why Secret Service snipers aim.for that, the possible jerking and spasms of the body wont pull the trigger or detnator

[taco86 156]

Scruffy bandit, a modern hunting cross bow has the kenetic energy of a .22lr...  That's about 4 times less than a 9mm, 4.5x less than a .45 acp, almost 15x less energy than a 5.56 m193 fired from a 20 inch barrel, and about 30x less energy than a 7.62 nato m80 ball...  Bolts and Arrows being more lethal than bullets is specifically video game and Hollywood BS...

Edited April 19, 2014 by taco86

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Because its a 2 and a half foot long CHUNK OF WOOD goin about as fast as a .357

Buuuut, I do know that they pull ballistics out of a bucket full of random numbers sooo...

 

357 magnum has a muzzle velocity of between 1200 and 1600 feet per second and weigh between 110 and 180 grain.

 

a 151lb composite crossbow (Barnett ghost) has between 350 and 400 feet per second, however the bolt + head weigh much more than the magnum round at around 500 grain.

[taco86 156]

Because its a 2 and a half foot long CHUNK OF WOOD goin about as fast as a .357

 

Uhhh, cross bow bolts rarely exceed 450 ft/s....  How is that "about as fast" as a .357 magnum moving 1,400 ft/s?  Furthermore, 2 and a half foot long chunk of wood?  Most xbow bolts nowadays are made of carbon and close to 1.5 ft long...

[Electi 149]

Actually, the medula oblangata makes death instantaneous, meaning ZERO movement after its destroyed. Thats why Secret Service snipers aim.for that, the possible jerking and spasms of the body wont pull the trigger or detnator

agreed, i told bullshit, i thought about myelos, but wrote medula oblangata (it's a part of a brain and i already wrote it in that list + as i know it's have life-important centers which one controls breath), so yeah, instantaneous death. Thanks

Edited April 19, 2014 by Electi

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Scruffy bandit, a modern hunting cross bow has the kenetic energy of a .22lr...  That's about 4 times less than a 9mm, 4.5x less than a .45 acp, almost 15x less energy than a 5.56 m193 fired from a 20 inch barrel, and about 30x less energy than a 7.62 nato m80 ball...

I didn't say that crossbows out perform 5.56 NATO, only that there's no reason why a crossbow cannot in theory match the kinetic energy levels of a bullet, something you just confirmed by admitting that most hunting crossbows are similar in terms of kinetic energy to .22 rimfire rounds.

 

Did you misunderstand my post or something?

[pale1776 375]

Okay look guys, point is in real life one shot and your done, no matter what. Yeah, theres exceptions, look at Iraq. But to be blunt, its pretty much obe shot one kill.

[taco86 156]

I did not misunderstand your post scruffy, I just think it's misleading...  I commented on the .22lr in my post to attempt to highlight that even one of the least powerful cartridges ever produced still has about the same or more energy than some of the most powerful handheld crossbows built...  Now if we go back to the general topic of the thread which is m4a1 vs crossbow, you can easily see that stating a crossbow reaches similar energy levels of chemically propelled projectiles such as the 5.56 (which you did not specifically do) is a bit silly...

 

The simple reality is that arrows and bolts do not even come close to the energy levels of bullets unless you look at extreme examples.

Edited April 19, 2014 by taco86

[LeChat 131]

The question is in the title.  I'm seriously wondering why the cross bow is a one hit to the chest with it's 100ish ft/lbs of energy...  In comparison, the m4 takes several body/chest shots yet it has over 1,200 ft/lbs of energy?  Realistically an arrow/bolt wound is childs play compared to high velocity rifle wounds.

 

P.S. This is not a "buff m4" request, the m4 was simply used as an example.

 

I'd hardly call it childsplay, a deer runs between 5-200 meters (I've seen deer run the same distance when being shot using .308 Win and hitting the same areas - now I've never seen a deer being shot with a broadhead in person, that's just figures from people I know that are hunting with bows) after being shot with a broadhead if it is in a vital area. There is a reason why some people hunt using bows/crossbows and broadheads (well I don't think it's legal anywhere to hunt with a field tip) and it's not because it's ineffective. The upside of using firearms is the fact that you have a higher rate of fire, reloading time, you're able to shoot long distances and still kill.

 

With that said, it could be because the crossbow is new and it hasn't been tuned yet and it's probably better to nerf something than to buff it, or it could be that it is trying to compensate for rate of fire/reload speed, or any other reason really or they just realised that broadheads are lethal. I don't think anyone but the devs could answer your question why it does more damage than the M4.

 

Now to my question: where the f* do they spawn? I've found bolts and I've found stuff to make a bow but alas, no arrows and no crossbow.

[-Gews- 7443]

only that there's no reason why a crossbow cannot in theory match the kinetic energy levels of a bullet

In theory.

The kinetic energy doesn't matter, the wound matters, the crossbow is capable of sending a bolt straight through someone cutting a 1.5" swath... it is not something you want to be hit with. The real question is "why is the 5.56 so weak?"

 

How Arrows and Bullets Differ

To understand the importance of proper shot placement and recovery techniques in bowhunting, it's helpful to know how arrows and bullets differ in the way they impact and kill an animal. Bullets kill by high-energy impact that crushes tissue and bone. Bullets may knock down an animal or incapacitate it by breaking major bones, which reduces its chance of running away.

Broadhead-tipped arrows deliver a low-energy impact that kills by cutting vital tissues. Because impact alone won't knock down an animal, the arrow must be placed properly for a quick kill and easy recovery. A poorly placed arrow will have little immediate impact, making it difficult, and perhaps impossible, to recover the animal.

In addition, arrow wounds are generally less painful and generate less fear and panic than a comparable bullet wound. This is important to remember because patience in the recovery process often means that an animal—if mortally wounded—will die relatively close to where it was hit if it isn't spooked.

Typically, an arrow kills by cutting blood vessels (arteries and veins), producing massive blood loss. Blood pressure drops, cutting off oxygen to the brain and causing death. This is called hemorrhagic shock.

-An animal must lose about 1/3 of its blood to die of hemorrhagic shock, but that can vary depending on how fast the blood is lost. There is approximately one ounce of blood per pound of body weight in the circulatory system of animals like deer.

-The time it takes for an animal to die from bleeding can vary from a matter of seconds to several hours, depending on the animal's size, how many vessels are cut, and whether they are arteries or veins.

-Arrows also can kill by puncturing the lungs. If both lungs collapse, the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain is halted, the animal becomes unconscious within seconds, and it dies before it can bleed to death.

-Arrows can kill by disrupting the heart muscle, which instantly stops the flow of blood to the brain.

[Buffaloe 87]

Balancing. You have to make a trade-off between realism and gameplay.

 

A m4 has a way higher range than a crossbow. It's easier to hit things due to the higher bullet speed and lower bullet drop, and your firerate is also WAY higher.

So, if you want the crossbow to be at least of some use you have to give it some advantage.

 

 

edit: I also don't think it is that unrealistic for a crossbow to be more damaging than a 5.56mm bullet.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Buffaloe

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Okay look guys, point is in real life one shot and your done, no matter what. Yeah, theres exceptions, look at Iraq. But to be blunt, its pretty much obe shot one kill.

Of course, the problem we're seeing here with the crossbow doing more per shot damage than the m4 isn't really the crossbow that is faulty, it's the m4 and all firearms and even melee weapons, frankly.

 

In real life, if someone shot you at 5 meters with a single round of 5.56mm in the chest, you would almost certainly die without rapid and major medical attention, in fact even WITH medical attention from a well equipped and trained medical center you would be lucky to survive. In the world of DayZ where most of us have a handful of rags and bandages, perhaps a damaged saline bag any gunshot or major melee wound would almost certainly prove fatal.

 

This is true for every firearm, even including .22 LR. Being shot in the chest by a single round of .22 would still almost certainly require surgery to remove the bullet and any traces of clothing which got pulled into the wound along with it, stitches and enough luck that the bullet didn't hit anything so important, such as lungs, heart or major blood vessels that you managed to survive long enough to receive treatment.

 

As it stands, a shotgun blast at point blank range to the chest can be cured entirely with a bag of rice, a handful of rags and a change of t-shirt. Obviously when you think about it like that, there are some serious flaws in the games mechanics compared to real life.

 

It's also worth noting that the game does not model for wound size or hydrostatic shock at all. Being hit with a large, high velocity rifle round even in the leg could cause ruptures of blood vessels all over the body like an exploding hydraulic system put under too much pressure. It's also obvious that a chest round from a more powerful round like 7.62x54r should bleed much more heavily than for example, a busted nose from a fresh spawn fist fight... however as far as I'm aware, they result in exactly the same blood loss over time.

Edited April 19, 2014 by TheScruffyBandit