Changing the M4 to Burst Fire

[Draco122 411]

I'll admit I'm a gun nut but at the same time it makes me cringe a little whenever I hear someone yell the generic name of M4 and instantly think it's full auto.

 

To me when I hear "M4" I think of the burst fire variant which has semi-auto and a 3 round burst. It's a small "nit pick" suggestion but it also gives more realism in weapon choice.

 

I've made a poll to decide on whether people would just fancy a name change to a more accurate "M4A1" or to change it to a burst firing carbine

 

Edit:

 

Also changed the poll to include both a burst fire M4 AND the option of a full auto M4A1 for slightly added realism

Edited April 18, 2014 by Draco122

[Tmar09 19]

you can already change it to semi-auto using the T key, TT+TT will keep it semi auto even though nothing shows it.

[Electi 149]

Well how could we talk about realism, if we do not have here any realistic simulation of shooting?Because every military weapon have own unique riflings wich one cause defects in accuracy according to an end of those rifling's in the barrel and depending from how they are going in barrel bullet goes in specific way.
I think i should not continue how much weapons are far from real life, or you want to see another tons of text which one nobody will read and keep in mind, and will simply answer - we do not want our game became boring because it's too hard?

[willhelm 85]

I'll admit I'm a gun nut but at the same time it makes me cringe a little whenever I hear someone yell the generic name of M4 and instantly think it's full auto.

 

To me when I hear "M4" I think of the burst fire variant which has semi-auto and a 3 round burst. It's a small "nit pick" suggestion but it also gives more realism in weapon choice.

 

I've made a poll to decide on whether people would just fancy a name change to a more accurate "M4A1" or to change it to a burst firing carbine

 

-_-...

 

M4A1 is a fully automatic varient of the M4.... 

 

If a gun is full auto in real life it will stay full auto in the game, this is a realistic game this is not battlefield or COD where they do not need to be accurate about their gun information. Please use the search function before hand and do a little research about the gun if you're going to start posting about it or suggesting it.

 

Source: http://navyseals.com/weapons-demo/m4a1/

http://gyazo.com/497d253e4e7ff607c3bdf85e6fa27860

http://gyazo.com/9a01abf43682881113c76a395a036054

[-Gews- 7443]

Okay...

 

The gun says "CMMG, INC" on the receiver. This is because CMMG gave the devs some CAD files to help them make the gun. It also says "MOD4 SA" which is a civilian semi-automatic rifle.

 

The model in-game does not even have a setting for "full auto" on the selector switch.

 

It is NOT a true M4A1 regardless of what the text says, they could change the name to "M4 Carbine" or "MOD4 SA" or "Bushmaster M4A3" and switch the firing modes around and all would have the same validity as the current gun.

 

 

 

 

We were giving out cans of this stuff at E3 since CMMG has been helping us by providing CAD data for some of the guns and attachments we're making. Thought its worth a laugh.

 

 

 

 

CMMG is also the reason we have the tactical bacon... and someone from CMMG apparently helped design ARMA 3's MX rifles.

 

I'd rather it had just been a Colt or FN M4 or M4A1...

Edited April 17, 2014 by Gews

[Draco122 411]

-_-...

 

M4A1 is a fully automatic varient of the M4.... 

 

If a gun is full auto in real life it will stay full auto in the game, this is a realistic game this is not battlefield or COD where they do not need to be accurate about their gun information. Please use the search function before hand and do a little research about the gun if you're going to start posting about it or suggesting it.

 

Source: http://navyseals.com/weapons-demo/m4a1/

http://gyazo.com/497d253e4e7ff607c3bdf85e6fa27860

http://gyazo.com/9a01abf43682881113c76a395a036054

I did do research (which seems you did not) and I think you'll find there ARE two types, the M4 and the M4A1. The version you found is the SOPMOD Special Forces M4A1. Under no circumstances did I say it was from COD or Battlefield, you just presumed I was another fanboy of the franchise and deduced it was from there. Quote directly from wikipedia and with deeper research found on a number of other sites.

 

 

The M4 has selective fire options including semi-automatic and three-round burst (like the M16A2 and M16A4), while the M4A1 has the capability to fire fully automatic instead of three-round burst (like the M16A1 and M16A3).

 

 

http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/m4-m4a1-e.html

 

The only difference between the M4A1 and M4 is that its trigger unit of M4A1 is modified to fire full-auto instead of the three shots bursts in M4.

 

 

Colt Website (referred to by Colts Model number which typically starts with R0)

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/ColtMilitary/Products/ColtM4Carbine.aspx#100844-features--models

 

 

• US Military:

  R0920 Safe-Semi-Burst

  R0921 Safe-Semi-Auto

• International:

  R0977 / NSN 1005-01-382-0953 Safe-Semi-Auto

  R0979 / NSN 1005-01-231-0973 Safe-Semi Burst

   

 

 

To say I DIDN'T use the Search Function would be an understatement, quite frankly the only thread with semblance to the suggestion was made back in January of course I can revive that thread only to get yelled at for Necroing a dead thread. So it's not exactly a win-win situation there is it?

[w1lg5r 70]

Or have a burst/semi M4, and a full auto M4A1.

Can we please have an option fo have an M4 and an M4A1, since its just a config change?

Edited April 18, 2014 by lootable

[Draco122 411]

Or have a burst/semi M4, and a full auto M4A1.

Can we please have an option fo have an M4 and an M4A1, since its just a config change?

Consider it done

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

Mm... I'm pretty sure the In-game name is M4A1, which is the full-auto variant. I haven't really payed attention though.

 

I would personally rather see the M4, (Along with fixed accuracy) as it would make the AK-74 a better choice at CQC Than the M4 as it could full-auto beast mode while the M4 guy has to spam his trigger, so people would actually use the '74.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Mm... I'm pretty sure the In-game name is M4A1, which is the full-auto variant. I haven't really payed attention though.

 

I would personally rather see the M4, (Along with fixed accuracy) as it would make the AK-74 a better choice at CQC Than the M4 as it could full-auto beast mode while the M4 guy has to spam his trigger, so people would actually use the '74.

People will end up using the AK-74 and AKM more because they will likely be more readily available, as will ammunition and parts for them. (Also, cannot forget the classic "AK reliability").

The M4A1 may outclass the other two in most situations but if it's harder to find and attachments/magazines/5.56x45mm ammunition is as well, then you wouldn't see everyone using one.

 

 

Not every gun has to be balanced over others, that's why we have the 1911 and FNX-45 even though the FNX-45 is clearly the better choice with the larger magazine capacity, as well as suppressor & pistol MRD compatibility in addition to the flashlight.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

People will end up using the AK-74 and AKM more because they will likely be more readily available, as will ammunition and parts for them. (Also, cannot forget the classic "AK reliability").

The M4A1 may outclass the other two in most situations but if it's harder to find and attachments/magazines/5.56x45mm ammunition is as well, then you wouldn't see everyone using one.

 

 

Not every gun has to be balanced over others, that's why we have the 1911 and FNX-45 even though the FNX-45 is clearly the better choice with the larger magazine capacity, as well as suppressor & pistol MRD compatibility in addition to the flashlight.

True, true.

 

I just hate the AK-74 having no advantages over the ARs in the mod - Stanag magazines were x2 as common as AK mags and the AKs sights were no good past 200m max. Except for the AKM, the AK-series were just basically starter weapons as people dropped them whenever an M4 or M16 came along. Same with Shotguns. And they were actaully rarer than them!

 

 

I just hope the AK-74  will have some advantages to make it a reasonable choice over an M4 besides rarity, such as full-auto as i mentioned.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

True, true.

 

I just hate the AK-74 having no advantages over the ARs in the mod - Stanag magazines were x2 as common as AK mags and the AKs sights were no good past 200m max. Except for the AKM, the AK-series were just basically starter weapons as people dropped them whenever an M4 or M16 came along. Same with Shotguns. And they were actaully rarer than them!

 

 

I just hope the AK-74  will have some advantages to make it a reasonable choice over an M4 besides rarity, such as full-auto as i mentioned.

I'd be fine if they had both an M4 and M4A1, but I'd prefer we get both rather than them changing it, if they do anything with it.

The reason the AK-74 sucked in the mod is because its damage was not meant for the blood system that DayZ had, as well as the fact that the ironsight version was pretty poor even with zeroing and, as you said, too uncommon ammunition.

The standalone's durability is a huge factor that will probably lead to the AK-74 being used over the M4 (although the M4 is quite reliable and the AK-74 is not known for durability as much as the AKM). But I think you take rarity too lightly. Sure, the super persistent server hoppers will eventually get what they want, but the fact that not only the gun itself is more common, but also extra magazines, optics/custom parts, and 5.45x39mm ammunition, will mean that you'll have a lot more people using it.

Would you rather have a basic, damaged M4 or a heavily modified AK-74M with a GP-25, Kobra Sight & Suppressor?

[-Gews- 7443]

The AK-74 should be more controllable especially on full-auto given the somewhat less powerful ammunition, heavier weight and most especially the muzzle brake...

[a_ruttle 199]

or they could go realistic, and drift away from military weapons like they said they would and make it a semi auto civilian version, leaving only CDF weapons like ak74s as the only fully auto weapons

[TheSushi 28]

I'll admit I'm a gun nut but at the same time it makes me cringe a little whenever I hear someone yell the generic name of M4 and instantly think it's full auto.

 

To me when I hear "M4" I think of the burst fire variant which has semi-auto and a 3 round burst. It's a small "nit pick" suggestion but it also gives more realism in weapon choice.

 

I've made a poll to decide on whether people would just fancy a name change to a more accurate "M4A1" or to change it to a burst firing carbine

 

Edit:

 

Also changed the poll to include both a burst fire M4 AND the option of a full auto M4A1 for slightly added realism

 

While I admit I think burst fire guns by and far are generally crap, I suppose it is only realistic given the US issues more M4s than M4A1s. It would be a nice way to force people to use semi-automatic fire.

 

 

The AK-74 should be more controllable especially on full-auto given the somewhat less powerful ammunition, heavier weight and most especially the muzzle brake...

Well, the muzzle brake is a factor that's not really integral to the weapon. You could stick an AK-74 style brake onto an AR, or a Birdcage style brake onto an AK.

 

That aside, I'm inclined to think the M4 is more controllable. The bolt-carrier group is in-line with the stock and centered in the gun body, while the AK family has the bolt on the right side of the rifle and the reciever is slightly offset from the stock, which angles downward, generating more muzzle climb. Not that either gun honestly recoils that much, though.

[-Gews- 7443]

Well, the muzzle brake is a factor that's not really integral to the weapon. You could stick an AK-74 style brake onto an AR, or a Birdcage style brake onto an AK.

 

That aside, I'm inclined to think the M4 is more controllable. The bolt-carrier group is in-line with the stock and centered in the gun body, while the AK family has the bolt on the right side of the rifle and the reciever is slightly offset from the stock, which angles downward, generating more muzzle climb. Not that either gun honestly recoils that much, though.

Yes but it was designed for use with and is manufactured with the muzzle brake, it's not some aftermarket muzzle device, so for all intents and purposes relating to the discussion it is "integral" because if you remove it you no longer have a standard "as issued" AK-74. The AK-74 is supposed to be noticeably more controllable than the M4. I haven't shot one but that's the general opinion.

[-Gews- 7443]

Those two would balance quite nicely though without having to stray from realism at all though...

M4 burst

AK74 auto

M4 bit more powerful

AK74 bit less powerful

M4 bit more recoil

AK74 bit less recoil

M4 bit more accuracy

AK74 bit less accuracy

M4 bit more attachments

AK74 bit less attachments

M4 bit more high-maintenance

AK74 bit less high-maintenance

M4 less common ammo

Ak74 more common ammo

[taco86 156]

 The AK-74 is supposed to be noticeably more controllable than the M4. I haven't shot one but that's the general opinion.

I'd love to see the recoil of a full length ar-15 with full length gas system and rifle buffer tube compared to the ak74...  My money is still on the ak74, but m4a1s have noticeably more recoil than an m16a2.

[TheSushi 28]

Yes but it was designed for use with and is manufactured with the muzzle brake, it's not some aftermarket muzzle device, so for all intents and purposes relating to the discussion it is "integral" because if you remove it you no longer have a standard "as issued" AK-74. The AK-74 is supposed to be noticeably more controllable than the M4. I haven't shot one but that's the general opinion.

Right, but the Mosin has a comp slapped onto it in DayZ SA, so who knows if the stock muzzle device will be used.

 

The AK-74 is honestly pretty comparable to a 16'' midlength AR, since it was intended to be the USSR response to the 5.56 and all that.

[-Gews- 7443]

I'd love to see the recoil of a full length ar-15 with full length gas system and rifle buffer tube compared to the ak74...  My money is still on the ak74, but m4a1s have noticeably more recoil than an m16a2.

Right, but the Mosin has a comp slapped onto it in DayZ SA, so who knows if the stock muzzle device will be used.

The AK-74 is honestly pretty comparable to a 16'' midlength AR, since it was intended to be the USSR response to the 5.56 and all that.

The compensator does not come with the Mosin and it's not standard. If we get that AK74 the muzzle device will be used because it was on the leaked AK74 model, not as a separate attachment, and removing it doesn't make sense, unlike the SKS bayonet which might have been removed due to animation issues or whatnot.

Anyways running the free recoil numbers is interesting:

3.8 ft-lbs at 6.1 fps = M4A1

3.6 ft-lbs at 5.5 fps = M16A2

2.4 ft-lbs at 4.4 fps = AK74

These don't tell you anything about the felt recoil and these figures ignore the muzzle brake but the AK74 and 5.45 is clearly a very mild combination.

But back on topic there's no reason not to change the M4 to burst fire except that people wearing clown masks wouldn't enjoy spraying their 60 shots three rounds at a time. It could be either way or both depending on the backstory you want to make up for these rifles. "Realistically" it should be a semi-auto rifle since that's what the model is of... however they change the words on the textures all the time.

[TheSushi 28]

The compensator does not come with the Mosin and it's not standard. If we get that AK74 the muzzle device will be used because it was on the leaked AK74 model, not as a separate attachment, and removing it doesn't make sense, unlike the SKS bayonet which might have been removed due to animation issues or whatnot.

Anyways running the free recoil numbers is interesting:

3.8 ft-lbs at 6.1 fps = M4A1

3.6 ft-lbs at 5.5 fps = M16A2

2.4 ft-lbs at 4.4 fps = AK74

These don't tell you anything about the felt recoil and these figures ignore the muzzle brake but the AK74 and 5.45 is clearly a very mild combination.

But back on topic there's no reason not to change the M4 to burst fire except that people wearing clown masks wouldn't enjoy spraying their 60 shots three rounds at a time. It could be either way or both depending on the backstory you want to make up for these rifles. "Realistically" it should be a semi-auto rifle since that's what the model is of... however they change the words on the textures all the time.

I guess that makes sense. Still, even if recoil forces are low, a weapon might not stay on target very well - a Glock 17 versus a Beretta 92F, for instance. The latter is heavier and absorbs more recoil but has a very pronounced muzzle flip. Although the Glock is light and should transfer more recoil to the shooter, it stays on target rather well (for most, since firearms are a YMMV thing.) Most shooters find the AK family notably recoils off and to the right - the AKM actually has a muzzle brake that vents gas upward into that direction to counteract it.

 

But, they're basically comparable.

 

Hah, I personally hated Payday but I get what you mean. Still, it'd only make sense to remove automatic M4s if you didn't have any other automatic weapons. I'm honestly more apprehensive when someone uses aimed semi-automatic fire to try and kill me than a haphazard burst where most of the rounds miss.

 

'Realistically' though a civilian AR-15 in Chernarus really wouldn't make too much sense though, unless some PMC group brought them over for some work.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

The game's M4A1 is actually called the "M4A1", not "M4". Don't know what this thread is trying to say.

[taco86 156]

I believe one of the arguments for it not being a m4a1 is that the art is not actually of a m4a1 (not sure).  Either way, a mid-full length ar-15 with solid style stock (i believe @ctorchia tweeted about this) suits the S-1 or  S-1-3 fire modes better.  There are two military rifles that standout as filling this "niche" in the m16a4 and the mk12spr, both have reasonable "setting" based ties to the m4a1 that currently exists.  The m4a1 has been fielded by the marines i believe starting in 09, so it's existence could be explained as such making the presence of the m16a4 explained.  The mk12spr has been extensively used by US Seals, which have been using the m4a1 since it's introduction.

 

Somewhat off topic, but this game needs an ak74m asap.  Should be a low recoil bullet hose with reasonable accuracy and nasty terminal ballistic wound characteristics.  Projectile energy is only slightly less than m4a1, and probably a little bit more than 20% less than a 5.56 out of a 1/7 20 inch barrel. 

Edited April 27, 2014 by taco86

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I believe one of the arguments for it not being a m4a1 is that the art is not actually of a m4a1 (not sure).  Either way, a mid-full length ar-15 with solid style stock (i believe @ctorchia tweeted about this) suits the S-1 or  S-1-3 fire modes better.  There are two military rifles that standout as filling this "niche" in the m16a4 and the mk12spr, both have reasonable "setting" based ties to the m4a1 that currently exists.  The m4a1 has been fielded by the marines i believe starting in 09, so it's existence could be explained as such making the presence of the m16a4 explained.  The mk12spr has been extensively used by US Seals, which have been using the m4a1 since it's introduction.

 

Somewhat off topic, but this game needs an ak74m asap.  Should be a low recoil bullet hose with reasonable accuracy and nasty terminal ballistic wound characteristics.  Projectile energy is only slightly less than m4a1, and probably a little bit more than 20% less than a 5.56 out of a 1/7 20 inch barrel. 

AK-74M is on hold for some reason, but it'll probably be better overall considering 5.45x39mm will (likely) be the more common ammunition type. And I'd assume the GP-25 grenade launchers will be easier to find than M203s.

[Dchil 829]

AK-74M is on hold for some reason, but it'll probably be better overall considering 5.45x39mm will (likely) be the more common ammunition type. And I'd assume the GP-25 grenade launchers will be easier to find than M203s.

I'm pretty sure that we are getting an AKM, not an AK74 or whatever the hell a AK74m is.

 

 

I would like to see changeable stocks (folding version of the wood plz), a suppressor and a red dot be available for the AKM but i could deal with just updated irons.

 

Also the M4 in game is actually an M4A1 so i don't know why you are bitching about it. The "M4" designation is given to it by the community, just like many people call the magnum the "357" or "Python" or the Sporter 22 being called a "10-22" or "Ruger".

 

It may be a valid name, but it isn't what the game calls it.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Dchil