Can Nothing be done about MetaGaming in Dayz?

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

No, just no. The ONLY advantage is if someone playing in 1PP mode decides to join a 3PP server- and that is a choice made by the player themselves. There is NOTHING inherent in the game that puts that player at a disadvantage- it is his choice, and his choice alone, to join the 3PP server knowing full well the majority of players on that server are playing from a perspective that disadvantages him. There is no advantage granted to someone playing in 3PP over ANYONE else playing 3PP- it is a completely level playing field.

 

4th wall aims to cripple 3PP players with the goal of making it "fair" to 1PP players on the same server. There is no fairness at all in restricting the gameplay of someone playing in 3rd person, on a 3rd person server, by removing the inherent ability to see everything in third person. 1PP players simply have no business playing on 3PP servers if they are unwilling to accept the difficulty they are going to encounter when coming up against a player using 3rd person. The mod balances nothing and breaks everything about 3PP- peeking over walls and around corners and seeing nothing is a broken 3rd person perspective, period.

Sure it does. The current implementation of the third party view unbalances PvP, Just because the way it's currently unbalanced suits you doesn't mean it won't or indeed shouldn't be fixed.  [:rolleyes:]

Just because the 1pp servers exist doesn't mean unbalanced and unrealistic behavior should continue on the 3pp hive, not everyone who plays on 3pp is as happy as you with the current mechanics you need to get out of the mindset that this is strictly a 1pp vs 3pp issue when it clearly isn't, It's an issue of balance verses the ability to camp, observing an area from completely risk free location.

From the point of view of a "1pp purest", I'd prefer 3pp got removed entirely, however arguments in favor of *fixing* 3pp, which dispite your protests is clearly and evidently required isn't a 3pp purest augment it is intact an argument in favor of improving and balancing the 3rd person servers.

Edited April 16, 2014 by TheScruffyBandit

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

This whole meta-game does not coincide very well on public servers.  RP'ers are the ones who make a true meta experience and playing RP on a public server just doesn't mesh very well.  Wait until private servers are available and look for communities who want to endorse the meta-game and create their own atmosphere on their servers.

[Daemonkid 493]

Sure it does. The current implementation of the third party view unbalances PvP, Just because the way it's currently unbalanced suits you doesn't mean it won't or indeed shouldn't be fixed.  :rolleyes:

 

Just because the 1pp servers exist doesn't mean unbalanced and unrealistic behavior should continue on the 3pp hive, not everyone who plays on 3pp is as happy as you with the current mechanics you need to get out of the mindset that this is strictly a 1pp vs 3pp issue when it clearly isn't, It's an issue of balance verses the ability to camp, observing an area from completely risk free location.

 

From the point of view of a "1pp purest", I'd prefer 3pp got removed entirely, however arguments in favor of *fixing* 3pp, which dispite your protests is clearly and evidently required isn't a 3pp purest augment it is intact an argument in favor of improving and balancing the 3rd person servers.

Uh. I'm saying 3PP is broken.. it needs to be fixed..it doesn't suit me... I don't like it's current implementation. Did you not understand that, or are you trying to come off as a smug arsehole?

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

Uh. I'm saying 3PP is broken.. it needs to be fixed..it doesn't suit me... I don't like it's current implementation. Did you not understand that, or are you trying to come off as a smug arsehole?

I just quoted the wrong post and didn't notice. :blush:

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

This is not a discussion about 3pp.  There is already a thread somewhere else for that.  Either stick with the actual topic at hand or please leave.

[Daemonkid 493]

Metagaming won't be fixed. I already posted the easiest way to say that using 3party software isn't condoned. 

That's to prevent DayZ from even launching if any 3P voice chat was activated. None of this will ever happen and there is nothing more that can really be said for either side of the debate. It's a dead horse. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Daemonkid

[TheScruffyBandit 382]

This is not a discussion about 3pp.  There is already a thread somewhere else for that.  Either stick with the actual topic at hand or please leave.

It's a discussion on Metagaming in DayZ and third person is clearly metagaming so It's not entirely off topic, however I do agree that this shouldn't become another 3pp argument, as you said we do have another thread specifically for that element, this one is more general.

Edited April 16, 2014 by TheScruffyBandit

[AzrailCross 48]

Metagaming won't be fixed. I already posted the easiest way to say that using 3party software isn't condoned. 

That's to prevent DayZ from even launching if any 3P voice chat was activated. None of this will ever happen and there is nothing more that can really be said for either side of the debate. It's a dead horse. 

 

That isn't an end all to all of the different aspects. 

 

For one that isn't really fixing anything, you can't wholly fix it to begin with; the VOIP issue can't be resolved period. My girlfriend is in the same room and plays DayZ with me, can look at her screen anytime; can call my friends up on other computers.. how many people have a 4-8 year old POS junk computer laying around they could dust off and run? I can guess - the majority of people wanting the advantage do if not a brand new one that's extra, or a laptop.. - or a smartphone + skype rather than the actual computer running DayZ.

 

While I'd commend them for trying, and even thumb up for doing it; and taking a stand showing they are against it: it's not the END all of the discussion. For one giving ideas on how to make the ingame communication more appealing would be the best if not the only real solution; making it more convenient to get in touch with friends, and enemies alike at will would encourage it's use over other VOIP software far more than trying to outright ban their use. 

 

Nor.. does it even bring up the other two aspects of the thread, the brightness/gamma which does also need fixing, and the 3PP advantage. Which both are still partially ongoing, even though I see no argument that can really stand for either of them; but the more attention a thread brings the more likely it's to see Dev attention, it's popularity rise, and the chance of change occurring.

 

In addition to my 3PP post, it's sad that if they actually put in the 4th wall in a streamlined way - where it blacks out the areas that your character can't see - I'd actually be more compelled to use it - more often than I already do. The mere BS factor of being able to see around walls and such kills the immersion, 3PP itself doesn't destroy it, but the advantage takes away half the intensity of playing, solely because of it's advantages.

Edited April 16, 2014 by AzrailCross

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

First of all, the server hosting rules at the present time don't allow for rule sets to be put into place for people to enforce the use of third person coms.  Second, we are in a testing phase where getting the game to run stable with all the implementation of various game aspects. 

 

Now, as for third party coms, this is not a choice in the matter.  No gaming company would outright ban the use of third person coms because it would just destroy them.  Also, to me, the people who are very much against third party coms seem to be the RP'ers.  Wait until private servers become available and try and find a community who strictly plays with in game coms only.

 

As for the gamma exploit, not sure what BiS can do without removing the option in game.  People will still find a way to abuse it using their monitor or their video card software.

 

The field of view, again, is being worked on and it will get fixed.

[J4G 92]

Anti-game or not, its still a game.

 

You really seem to forget that not all of players live alone, too much IRL  sounds ruins everything you try to plan here.

Even that you live alone your phone might ring, you either answer it and broadcast your conversations to half of the electro or try to run nearest forest to log out while some goofy ring tone follows you, as you try to hide and find safe log out spot.

Or maybe you are in middle operation where you sneak behind other players and your buddy start suddenly barking like a dog, cry like a baby, or hes voice turns to old ladys voice that reminds that dinner is ready.

The way some people want realism in this game, sounds that soon we have hang ourselves when we die in game.

 

When modders arrive on the field, you hopely going to get you most realistic experience ever.
 

Meanwhile i still wanna use my TS and speak with my friends privately even when they are not playing same game than i.

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

Technically speaking you CAN you just won't. Because in truth you could just start compiling a list of third party VOIP programs and disable joining servers while they are on in the background, no doubt in my mind battle-eye already checks background processes to hunt for known hacking programs. 

 

Are you retarded or something?

 

Are you really sugesting that they start blocking people from playing who have skype, mumble, or TS on the background?

 

They aren't even allowed to scan my computer for that, it would be way to invasive and cause a huge privacy uproar in the community.

 

I can already think of the headlines now

 

 

DayZ game found to disable skype. Company sued for breaching of privacy.

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

While I'd commend them for trying, and even thumb up for doing it; and taking a stand showing they are against it: it's not the END all of the discussion. For one giving ideas on how to make the ingame communication more appealing would be the best if not the only real solution; making it more convenient to get in touch with friends, and enemies alike at will would encourage it's use over other VOIP software far more than trying to outright ban their use. 

 

Where do they say they are against the use of 3th party voice coms?? They don't say that anywhere. It's you whos making retarded posts about blocking legitimate aplications from running in the background.

[p4triot 207]

Are you retarded or something?

 

Are you really sugesting that they start blocking people from playing who have skype, mumble, or TS on the background?

 

They aren't even allowed to scan my computer for that, it would be way to invasive and cause a huge privacy uproar in the community.

 

I can already think of the headlines now

 

A lot of games search for hacks on the background, so turns out it is not illegal. "Terms and conditions" they say. Not that they shutdown those programs, but more like they will refuse to open.

 

Not that I agree with that, just sayin' that its not illegal at all.

Edited April 16, 2014 by p4triot

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

A lot of games search for hacks on the background, so turns out it is not illegal. "Terms and conditions" they say. Not that they shutdown those programs, but more like they will refuse to open.

 

Not that I agree will that, just sayin' that its not illegal at all.

 

They scan for known hack signatures thats something els entirely from blocking legitimate aplications.

 

As for you remark about ToS thats utter bollocks so far no judge has ruled in favor of a invasive ToS since you simply can't waive your basic privacy rights,

 

Imagine this going to court.

 

Judge: So i hear your blocking legitimate aplications from running? why?

BiS: Because of the meta game?

 

Errrr, hello? sanity check, you there?

 

Anti cheats such as VAC and Battleye specifically scan for known signatures and nothing els. everything els would be deemed a breach of privacy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat

 

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/BattlEye

Edited April 16, 2014 by Massacre

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

A lot of games search for hacks on the background, so turns out it is not illegal. "Terms and conditions" they say. Not that they shutdown those programs, but more like they will refuse to open.

 

Not that I agree with that, just sayin' that its not illegal at all.

 

Whether it's illegal or not, the day DayZ makes legitimate software stop running on your computer is the day it becomes malicious software and no better than a virus or malware. That is the day I stop playing.

Edited April 16, 2014 by DarkwaveDomina

[chrismgtis (DayZ) 35]

Sure, I was using the definition from wiki:

'Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.'

 

The term was basically used incorrectly. He didn't define really how it applied to DayZ exactly.

[p4triot 207]

They scan for known hack signatures thats something els entirely from blocking legitimate aplications.

 

As for you remark about ToS thats utter bollocks so far no judge has ruled in favor of a invasive ToS since you simply can't waive your rights,

 

Imagine this going to court.

 

Judge: So i hear your blocking legitimate aplications from running? why?

BiS: Because of the meta game?

 

Errrr, hello? sanity check, you there?

 

You didn't understood. Doesn't block those applications, that would be illegal (I guess). Same that doesn't block hacks, hacks are also legit programs you are free to install and use, actually. But according to the ToS your game can refuse to open IF those programs are running on the background. Never its going to be invasive and shutdown those programs for you, since this would be illegal.

 

Think of when you install a program that demands you to "please, installation needs you to close Firefox to continue" and you have a YES/NO button.

 

Legally, those are grey areas, same with casinos. Did you know people that is actually legal to count cards in a casino when playing blackjack? they cant report you for that. But also casinos have a legal "right of admission" (translated directly from my native language). So if they want, they can put you in a black list and not let you enter the casino ever again.

 

So, we may be not agree with BiS doing this (and they wont, this is just a fantasy from a mad player). But it is doable. For sure.

Edited April 16, 2014 by p4triot

[LeChat 131]

Easier solution, Dayz detects these programs and refuses to launch while activated.

:D

 

Yeah because in the time of smart phones it's really hard to download skype, set the phone on speaker and launch skype using the phone.

Or heck even using skype on another computer for that matter. It wouldn't affect anything at all to not launch DayZ while Skype (or any other third-party VOIP is running)

it would just create an inconvenience for some people and those who wanted to use a third-party application while playing DayZ would do so through other means.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

Think of when you install a program that demands you to "please, close Firefox to continue" and you have a YES/NO button.

 They do that when it's necessary for the functioning of the install. That's nothing like blocking legitimate apps "because reasons".

 

it would just create an inconvenience for some people and those who wanted to use a third-party application while playing DayZ would do so through other means.

Personally, my means of dealing with it would be to uninstall DayZ. Edited April 16, 2014 by DarkwaveDomina

[[Outcasts]Massacre 121]

Hacks interface directly with the DayZ code through injection or modification of the memory. They can scan for changes to their own code and for known hack signatures in memory or on disk.

 

That means they scan only known pieces of code and disregard anything els.

 

This is Gabe Newell valve CEO on what VAC does

 

We don't usually talk about VAC (our counter-hacking hacks), because it creates more opportunities for cheaters to attack the system (through writing code or social engineering).

This time is going to be an exception.

 

here are a number of kernel-level paid cheats that relate to this Reddit thread. Cheat developers have a problem in getting cheaters to actually pay them for all the obvious reasons, so they start creating DRM and anti-cheat code for their cheats. These cheats phone home to a DRM server that confirms that a cheater has actually paid to use the cheat.

 

VAC checked for the presence of these cheats. If they were detected VAC then checked to see which cheat DRM server was being contacted. This second check was done by looking for a partial match to those (non-web) cheat DRM servers in the DNS cache. If found, then hashes of the matching DNS entries were sent to the VAC servers. The match was double checked on our servers and then that client was marked for a future ban. Less than a tenth of one percent of clients triggered the second check. 570 cheaters are being banned as a result.

 

Q&A

1) Do we send your browsing history to Valve? No.

2) Do we care what porn sites you visit? Oh, dear god, no. My brain just melted.

3) Is Valve using its market success to go evil? I don't think so, but you have to make the call if we are trustworthy. We try really hard to earn and keep your trust.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1y70ej/valve_vac_and_trust/

Edited April 16, 2014 by Massacre

[p4triot 207]

They do that when it's necessary for the functioning of the install. That's nothing like blocking legitimate apps "because reasons".

 

Read the entire post. Blocking apps is never going to do. Legitimate apps is EVERYTHING in your computer, except viruses (and if you are not using against anyone, a virus is also legal, and masochistic). But hacks aint viruses, therebore, are LEGIT. If not, you could sue those who kill you with aimbot when playing, and send them to jail. Which would be a pleasure, but its not possible XD

 

So, lets make it clear:

- Every app is a legitimate program

- Never a program can block ANOTHER program of your computer

- Reasons and necessity are just a matter of opinion, not a legal issue.

Edited April 16, 2014 by p4triot

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

- Every app is a legitimate program

This is where we disagree, because I don't consider cheat software legitimate and I feel it's within the remit of a developer (be it Bohemia, or Battleye) to prevent clearly malicious software from interfering with their own software. That's what makes it malicious, its only purpose is to intefere with games. To compare TeamSpeak or Skype to cheat software is a complete nonsense and this is why we'll not agree on this issue.

Edited April 16, 2014 by DarkwaveDomina

[Irish. 4886]

WTF is this thread even about anymore? 

Please discuss cheese, and its possible addition to DayZ.

[gibonez 3633]

This is where we disagree, because I don't consider cheat software legitimate and I feel it's within the remit of a developer (be it Bohemia, or Battleye) to prevent clearly malicious software from interfering with their own software. That's what makes it malicious, its only purpose is to intefere with games. To compare TeamSpeak or Skype to cheat software is a complete nonsense and this is why we'll not agree on this issue.

 

I didn't even think about that. I guess battleye could kick people if it detects teamspeak or mumble are on.

 

They could also kick you if you are on the most common ports used by ts and mumble.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Holy crap, you guys have lost your marbles.  BiS will in no way have BE start kicking people who are going to use third party VOIP.  Go find like minded people who just want to use in game voice, go rent your own server with those like minded people and, voila, you have your own special playground.  Once they allow private servers and locking, you guys can safely play on those servers without the interference of douchebags who would "apparently" cheat using VOIP.