SKS : can't hit over 200m

[Valadain 270]

I can see how you see a problem with that. But are they going to the extremes in your opinion?

 

I'm somewhat torn as to whether the gunplay should be based on a person's skill with a mouse. That will make this game favor younger people with better reflexes, and people who are used to playing FPS's. Obviously I don't want it to be taken to the extremes, but in my own experience that's not what they're doing now. All the other factors that you mention are also things that I want to be reflected in-game. Wind, bullet drop and so on. Wind can be highly unpredictable as you surely know and the farther you shoot from the more different directions different winds can blow to affect the bullet. There's hardly ever one single direction the wind is blowing.

 

EDIT: Is it not possible that they're trying to emulate wind and such factors with the dispersion? I mean, can you think of a better way of having wind as a factor, where you as a player can calculate how it's blowing?

 

The problem is that this mechanic doesn't even the playing field. It still comes down to who has the better reflexes for a sudden gun-fight. As others have already responded though, tactics is the differentiator. Learn and use strategy and tactics.

 

Unfortunately, this mechanism also hurts that ability. What good is it to plan and excute your approach, come in behind the enemy unaware, carefully line up your sights with no twitch necessary, then miss, miss, miss, hit, miss....

[Mr Jizz 313]

With ultra-accuracy, you get a first person shooting experience that is completely dependent upon the skill, accuracy, and reflexes of the player and their hardware.

 

With ultra-accuracy, you have a game based off of skill.

 

With ultra-accuracy you have a game where players save their shots for when they know they can hit, and they use as little ammo as necessary to finish their target.

 

See the problems with this? 

 

 

Yes, you're describing the merits of a FPS PVP War-simulator.

 

Which is the root of my entire stance.  I've said before that tweaks are likely coming, they already reduced the dispersion of the FNX45 back on 0.32 so others will likely follow in suit. I've won several firefights with the SKS recently, all of them inside 30 m; none did I instigate. They start the fight, I finish it. I view the weapons as a security blanket, not a license to kill.  My goal is to collect food, survive, improve the quality of my gear and immerse myself in the environment.. and try to interact with people when they aren't trying to kill me. I argue that pinpoint, reliable accuracy with an SKS beyond 200 meters isn't surprising, but also not worth losing sleep over.

 

My argument is based on a couple things:

 

1. The developers time. This is NOT a FPS War-simulator; there are loads and loads of really cool survival mechanics, objectives, and content that I would love to see (and likely will) before they fine-tune the supposed ineptitude of various weapons. Your focus is probably on engaging in firefights due to your intense reaction to anyone that suggests something to the contrary.
2. The path. We don't know where the game is going.. persistent skills, a widening weapon selection, the prevalence of upcoming non-firearms, etc. Not being able to accurately engage targets beyond 200 m is a low priority in the evolution of this game. Do you think they added the Sportster 22 to cater to the hardcore sniper crowd?
3. Shooting is like riding a bike, but first you have to learn to ride the bike. Hitting a target with an assault rifle is not brain surgery, but I still contend that most people would struggle to hit a 5 inch target at 300 m without some sort of instruction. Especially not without going prone and taking a lot of care with each shot.  Lets be mindful of the term 'consistently' 

[rickenbacker 190]

First off we need to know the difference between a bolt rifle and a auto rifle.

They are not comparable in any ways ;)

Mosin = Bolt Rifle

SKS = Auto Rifle

And the SKS have an shorter barrel who is a main key also for bullet ballistics. So in all that, I think the dispersion between the rifles are correct.

But other vice I have not studied the numbers for the guns, so what the devs are up to I don't know.

 

The SKS still has a bolt, though it's not called bolt action, it's just semiautomatic, i.e. the bolt is pushed back by the firing action, chambering another round. And barrel length doesn't make that much difference. The SKS is slightly less accurate due to differences in tolerances, you can make a bolt action rifle tighter, and thus slightly more accurate. The difference in dispersion in the game currently is way, WAY off.

 

It's all because DayZ simulates the "human factor" by letting the bullets hit randomly within a "cone of fire", which in this case means that the dispersion at 200m is up to 50cm in any direction from center. I can promise you that a real SKS would give you a significantly tighter group than that at 200m. Hell, a shotgun would probably have a tighter pattern than that at 200m!

[xRann 126]

I've won several firefights with the SKS recently, all of them inside 30 m; none did I instigate.

I'm not going to address anything else other than this sentence because you still cannot see how ridiculous the magic cone of fire is.

 

Inside 30m and you fired second, I assume because you didn't instigate it. So that means one of two things about the other player. One, they couldn't aim for shit no matter how much practice they got. Or two, they had you dead to fucking rites and the cone of fire luck wasn't on their side. I'm leaning to the latter, and that makes for terrible gameplay and is a completely absurd mechanic.

[rickenbacker 190]

The learning curve is non-existent when all you have to do is point and click.  There's no anticipation of the kick, no dragging finger pull, no wind, no concussion, no gun jams, no sight flaws or adjustment (other than range zeroing).. Maybe you've missed my point as well.  It may need to be tweaked, but why are you so concerned with shooting something beyond 200 meters with a military weapon, if not to improve your chances of taking down another player? If you're worried about hitting a yet-to-be-added game animal, go find a Mosin.

 

EDITED TO ADD: On a separate note, perhaps this is a good argument for persistent skill development of characters. Shooting accuracy is certainly a learned skill that requires practice and consistent technique.  If you get killed you lose the skill and start over from scratch.

 

True, and this needs to be reflected in the game somehow. But a method that spreads your bullets in a 1m circle at 200m with what should be a pretty accurate rifle is not the answer. Shaking, sway and what have you might work, but not this.

 

Here's a link to a discussion where 4" groups at 200m are mentioned. That's about 10cm, i.e. 10% the dispersion the DayZ SKS currently has... 

 

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=134055

 

Sure, this is by a skilled shooter, probably using proper support, but it still means that the rifle is considerably MORE accurate than that. In the game, the sights can be perfectly still, and we still get 1m groups at 200m. That's just too wide a gap for anyone who knows anything about firearms to swallow, even if it is for game balande.

[rickenbacker 190]

The physical mechanics and required skill to use a firearm is almost null in comparison to any martial weapon. Use of those weapons requires training and skill, generally for years, and in very large amounts when compared to firearms. It's not even in the same ballpark. I've done martial weapons training, sticks, staffs, knives, swords, and bows and even though I learned quickly and have "natural" skill the fact is firearms require a fraction of training, both physically and mentally.

.

 

I agree that it takes a lot more physical strength and stamina to use a melee weapon, but shooting accurately and consistently takes quite a lot of training as well. In the case of zombie vs fireaxe, I think it'd be easier to slam an axe into the head of a zombie coming straight at you than to hit it with a pistol - it's surprisingly easy to miss if you don't use the proper technique. 

 

I'm just really bothered by the artificially useless rifles in the game, if the sight doesn't move when you pull the trigger, there's no physical reason the bullet wouldn't go within a few cm of your aiming point. 

Edited March 11, 2014 by Rickenbacker

[rickenbacker 190]

So how do you propose they emulate lack of skill at shooting a firearm?

 

 

 

Ahh, the heart of the matter! I think sway/shake/whatever weapon movement should be increased when standing, and possibly even kneeling, and DEFINITELY when winded. Anyone who knows how a rifle works can hit a dinner plate at 200m when rested and lying down, with pretty much any rifle ever made. In the game currently, you'd be lucky to hit it once with an entire magazine.

[xRann 126]

I agree that it takes a lot more physical strength and stamina to use a melee weapon, but shooting accurately and consistently takes quite a lot of training as well. In the case of zombie vs fireaxe, I think it'd be easier to slam an axe into the head of a zombie coming straight at you than to hit it with a pistol - it's surprisingly easy to miss if you don't use the proper technique. 

 

I'm just really bothered by the artificially useless rifles in the game, if the sight doesn't move when you pull the trigger, there's no physical reason the bullet wouldn't go within a few cm of your aiming point. 

It *can* take, I've seen plenty of people very surprised with their first time shooting after what boils down to a five minute brief and sending rounds. The world is a bell curve, some find it easy others need practice. I'm not implying everyone without training could sit and pop headshots at 300m, but most people could hit a man-sized target at 100-200m with minimal instruction.

[Mr Jizz 313]

I'm not going to address anything else other than this sentence because you still cannot see how ridiculous the magic cone of fire is.

 

Inside 30m and you fired second, I assume because you didn't instigate it. So that means one of two things about the other player. One, they couldn't aim for shit no matter how much practice they got. Or two, they had you dead to fucking rites and the cone of fire luck wasn't on their side. I'm leaning to the latter, and that makes for terrible gameplay and is a completely absurd mechanic.

 

Maybe, who knows? Or maybe he shouldn't have been trying to kill me in the first place because this isn't a FPS PVP War-simulator. 

 

Sorry for your confusion, here's the link to Steam's refund policy:

 

Steam Returns and Refunds

 

Accuracy will be improved by future patches as is necessary for the dynamics of the original intent of the game.  Because I'm typically using my ax to kill zombies to conserve precious ammo and stay quiet, and also because I'm never trying to kill people unawares, I haven't had a lot of personal experience with the +200 CONE OF MYSTERY .. either way I tend to believe that the developers know what they're doing, and if they wanted the SKS to hit a target at 300-400 meters (remember: 'consistently') they would have fashioned it in kind with the Mosin (which I've seen hit things at 800 m in game). Same goes for the M4.

[xRann 126]

.. either way I tend to believe that the developers know what they're doing, and if they wanted the SKS to hit a target at 300-400 meters (remember: 'consistently')

You cannot even hit anything consistently within 100m. You have no clue as to what you're talking about, and that further proves that point.

[Mr Jizz 313]

Ahh, the heart of the matter! I think sway/shake/whatever weapon movement should be increased when standing, and possibly even kneeling, and DEFINITELY when winded. Anyone who knows how a rifle works can hit a dinner plate at 200m when rested and lying down, with pretty much any rifle ever made. In the game currently, you'd be lucky to hit it once with an entire magazine.

 

I can absolutely submit to this.  They also need to make the bipod available to the SKS; I think that would shut everyone up (assuming its functional). There needs to be a way to prevent this thing from turning into a FPS War-simulator, as much as some people want it to be.  The CONE OF MYSTERY sounds like it's a little too wide at one end, but I think that may be a temporary solution, due to a lack of importance or resources available to add more variable 'human' mechanics.  

 

[xRann 126]

Bipod or not, accuracy of the weapon doesn't change. The idea that adding attachments to the weapon makes it more accurate is a misnomer. All a bipod would do is reduce the weapon sway, which could in turn allow you to be more accurate, but by no means does it somehow make the weapon more accurate.

 

Again, I don't want a military shooter sim, if I did I'd play arma2/3. I would like firearms to function close to how they function in reality and not rely on a shitty game mechanic to dictate accuracy. Sway, breathing, fatigue, position, encumbrance, and injuries allow for plenty, plenty more means of affecting accuracy than the cone of fire and weapon attachments. The random nature of the dispersion with no discernible cause is the issue and needs to be addressed.

[Etherimp 1323]

 

Yes, you're describing the merits of a FPS PVP War-simulator.

 

Which is the root of my entire stance.  I've said before that tweaks are likely coming, they already reduced the dispersion of the FNX45 back on 0.32 so others will likely follow in suit. I've won several firefights with the SKS recently, all of them inside 30 m; none did I instigate. They start the fight, I finish it. I view the weapons as a security blanket, not a license to kill.  My goal is to collect food, survive, improve the quality of my gear and immerse myself in the environment.. and try to interact with people when they aren't trying to kill me. I argue that pinpoint, reliable accuracy with an SKS beyond 200 meters isn't surprising, but also not worth losing sleep over.

 

My argument is based on a couple things:

 

1. The developers time. This is NOT a FPS War-simulator; there are loads and loads of really cool survival mechanics, objectives, and content that I would love to see (and likely will) before they fine-tune the supposed ineptitude of various weapons. Your focus is probably on engaging in firefights due to your intense reaction to anyone that suggests something to the contrary.
2. The path. We don't know where the game is going.. persistent skills, a widening weapon selection, the prevalence of upcoming non-firearms, etc. Not being able to accurately engage targets beyond 200 m is a low priority in the evolution of this game. Do you think they added the Sportster 22 to cater to the hardcore sniper crowd?
3. Shooting is like riding a bike, but first you have to learn to ride the bike. Hitting a target with an assault rifle is not brain surgery, but I still contend that most people would struggle to hit a 5 inch target at 300 m without some sort of instruction. Especially not without going prone and taking a lot of care with each shot.  Lets be mindful of the term 'consistently' 

 

 

It doesn't matter how you play the game, and it doesn't matter how I play the game.. though you'd be wrong in assuming that my "FOCUS" is engaging in firefights.

 

I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has 20+ years of experience playing FPS games, and 30+ years experience with video games in general.

 

Random dispersion is not good for the game. Period. Your arguments are all just hyperbole and rhetoric.

[cejota14 130]

The SKS sucks, specially in the latest update (experimental) I can't hit targets withing 200m either, I have a biiiig screen so I'm aiming right, but the dispersion is ridiculous

[sYs 133]

In general, the accuracy of guns in this game is pretty jacked at the moment.

 

This. It's kinda sad - that on the engine where gun damage, spread, velocity etc.. is best and top priority - somehow we get crappy hit registration and very bad guns. 

 

If im not sick in game, im in perfect condition to shoot. I Shoot sks IRL - its pretty damn accurate at 500-600 meters. I think the actual optimal range for the gun was 500 if im not mistaken. 

[SerasVictoria (DayZ) 13]

This. It's kinda sad - that on the engine where gun damage, spread, velocity etc.. is best and top priority - somehow we get crappy hit registration and very bad guns. 

 

If im not sick in game, im in perfect condition to shoot. I Shoot sks IRL - its pretty damn accurate at 500-600 meters. I think the actual optimal range for the gun was 500 if im not mistaken. 

 

I think we all agree that 200m is NOTHING for an high caliber military rifle, but actually in Dayz it looks like it's his effectiv max range *facepalm*

 

edit : effectiv

Edited March 11, 2014 by SerasVictoria

[Estyles 14]

I can absolutely submit to this.  They also need to make the bipod available to the SKS; I think that would shut everyone up (assuming its functional). There needs to be a way to prevent this thing from turning into a FPS War-simulator, as much as some people want it to be.  The CONE OF MYSTERY sounds like it's a little too wide at one end, but I think that may be a temporary solution, due to a lack of importance or resources available to add more variable 'human' mechanics.  

 

 

How do you not understand that one of the biggest draws from the DayZ mod apart from the survival kick your ass difficulty (well hard when you're new) was the super tight "Military" gunplay.

 

Knowing that the guns behaved authentically was a huge selling point for a large group of people myself included. I really liked the fact that my gun was not the problem my aim was.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Estyles

[xRann 126]

How do you not understand that one of the biggest draws from the DayZ mod apart from the survival kick your ass difficulty (well hard when you're new) was the super tight "Military" gunplay.

 

Knowing that the guns behaved authentically was a huge selling point for a large group of people myself included. I really liked the fact that my gun was not the problem my aim was.

I think a large problem is many, if not most, of the players didn't come from the mod so the cone of fire seems "normal" to them, much like how weapon attachments make the weapon more accurate. Frankly, it's horrifying to me that someone "green lit" this mechanic and the way attachments affect the weapons. I'm on the fence as far as expecting mod level firearm, ballistics, and weapon behaviors. I'd like a return to that but I just don't see that happening so I'm hedging my bets and seeking more of a middle ground.

 

I was a bit pumped that Gews's work was used, to some extent, to adjust some ballistics but it wasn't enough.

[rickenbacker 190]

It *can* take, I've seen plenty of people very surprised with their first time shooting after what boils down to a five minute brief and sending rounds. The world is a bell curve, some find it easy others need practice. I'm not implying everyone without training could sit and pop headshots at 300m, but most people could hit a man-sized target at 100-200m with minimal instruction.

 

Well, yeah. I've seen beginners shoot incredibly well the first time they touch a pistol. But after a few weeks, it evens out and the "problem" students catch up. To get to a place where you consistently shoot well takes about the same effort for everyone. "Talent" doesn't go very far in the real world :). 

 

Anyway, for gameplay purposes, I think we have to assume that every player character at least knows which end is the dangerous one, and should thus be able to hit a man sized target from 2-300m or so, lying down. 

Edited March 11, 2014 by Rickenbacker

[rickenbacker 190]

I can absolutely submit to this.  They also need to make the bipod available to the SKS; I think that would shut everyone up (assuming its functional). There needs to be a way to prevent this thing from turning into a FPS War-simulator, as much as some people want it to be.  The CONE OF MYSTERY sounds like it's a little too wide at one end, but I think that may be a temporary solution, due to a lack of importance or resources available to add more variable 'human' mechanics.  

 

 

 

I fervently hope so, and I believe the devs have said something along those lines. So this problem will probably rectify itself in time. I'll still bitch about it until it does, though :). 

[Valadain 270]

I think a large problem is many, if not most, of the players didn't come from the mod so the cone of fire seems "normal" to them, much like how weapon attachments make the weapon more accurate. Frankly, it's horrifying to me that someone "green lit" this mechanic and the way attachments affect the weapons. I'm on the fence as far as expecting mod level firearm, ballistics, and weapon behaviors. I'd like a return to that but I just don't see that happening so I'm hedging my bets and seeking more of a middle ground.

 

I was a bit pumped that Gews's work was used, to some extent, to adjust some ballistics but it wasn't enough.

 

I demand that they defer all things gun-related to Gews directly. Ok, not demand, but I'd certainly prefer if they either pay attention to someone who knows what they are doing (Gews) or just pop back in the Arma values.

[finnpalm 312]

I don't know that age is that big of a factor. Up until recently I ate up all shooters, never the best but always formidable, they just started to bore me over the years. I'm 31 and haven't noticed any nominal, if any, amount of lose to my hand-eye snaps.

 

It's there alright even though you don't notice it. Compare yourself to a 12 year old and you'll see what I mean (not only FPS's but any game requiring reflexes, hell, even Flappy Bird is a good example). The older you get the more your synapses degenerate. You may be able to counter this to some extent, by constantly training your brain in a certain way, but it does degenerate with age. I'm not saying this is game breaking. I'm just saying it's a factor, and if you're 50+ and meet someone in their mid teens, the younger person will have a clear advantage. Maybe slightly lower if the older player is an experiences FPS player.

 

The SKS still has a bolt, though it's not called bolt action, it's just semiautomatic, i.e. the bolt is pushed back by the firing action, chambering another round. And barrel length doesn't make that much difference. The SKS is slightly less accurate due to differences in tolerances, you can make a bolt action rifle tighter, and thus slightly more accurate. The difference in dispersion in the game currently is way, WAY off.

 

It's all because DayZ simulates the "human factor" by letting the bullets hit randomly within a "cone of fire", which in this case means that the dispersion at 200m is up to 50cm in any direction from center. I can promise you that a real SKS would give you a significantly tighter group than that at 200m. Hell, a shotgun would probably have a tighter pattern than that at 200m!

 

Gas operated bolt, as opposed to manually operated bolt. The expanding gas from the gunpowder pushes the bolt back and a spring pushes it forward again to chamber a new round.

 

Ahh, the heart of the matter! I think sway/shake/whatever weapon movement should be increased when standing, and possibly even kneeling, and DEFINITELY when winded. Anyone who knows how a rifle works can hit a dinner plate at 200m when rested and lying down, with pretty much any rifle ever made. In the game currently, you'd be lucky to hit it once with an entire magazine.

 

There's some constructive feedback. Couple that with increased fatigue from a heavy load and you'll get plenty of dispersion "naturally" when people run and fight.

 

I'm still not sure how they would be able to implement wind as a factor into the game however. And by wind I mean wind that you as a player can calculate when shooting at long distances.

[Jex 1104]

I disagree that the game would favor younger people with better reflexes. I'm 34, but I have been playing FPS games for probably 20 years. Any reflexes you lose with age you more than make up for with situational awareness, tactical knowledge, communication, teamwork, confidence in yourself, etc. Aside from that, DayZ isn't exactly a fast paced twitch shooter which requires super fast reflexes. It's more based on positioning/awareness.

 

But yes, I think they've currently gone too far with the dispersion.

 

Bob Munden laughs at you all. He's younger in this clip but he must have been 60 in the other video I saw and he managed this. Skip to 1:30 and then on to 2:20 and be prepared to pick up your jaw ;)

 

[Jex 1104]

I wonder if we should have a rifle skill. You start at 0 and as you use it more.....actually forget it it wouldn't work unless you made it for each zed or player kill and having to do it for each life....hmmm actually another punishment for dying!

[finnpalm 312]

Bob Munden laughs at you all. He's younger in this clip but he must have been 60 in the other video I saw and he managed this. Skip to 1:30 and then on to 2:20 and be prepared to pick up your jaw ;)

 

 

Maybe my point didn't get across. Someone used to playing FPS's can obviously counter the aging effects on their reflexes. Bob Munden is a trick shooter, who makes a livelihood on his skill. He trains regularly and therefor counters some of the effects of aging. My point with this was that if you're a good FPS-player you'll be favoured because you'll have been training. If you're a younger person with naturally better reflexes you'll be favoured. If you're neither of the two you're not favoured by such a system.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Strawman