Realism Vs. Balance

[rybec 339]

idk about an 8mm round, i would think a few of those to the chest would be more realistic

You silly guy. 8mm is a rifle round, not some handgun calibre smaller than 9mm.

[Lithium1056 45]

Ok I might be to lazy to google if my definition is incorrect or not but am I missing something about "Folding stock" rifles?

I mean are talking like a "folding" butt stock? Like the ones commonly seen on shotguns and AK series assault rifles?

And if that the case is the cry of OP because they could potentially be placed in a back pack?

If that's the case simply make it take longer than a strap mounted rifle to take out of your pack. I personally think you should be able to instantly remove anything from your pack as quickly as you can now.

[Mullraugh 1151]

Well it is a 3rd person shooter so it can have realism only to a certain extent.

 

I would argue that it's a first person shooter with the ability to go third person - hence the reason there are first person only servers, yet no third person only servers.

[agouti 105]

Ok I might be to lazy to google if my definition is incorrect or not but am I missing something about "Folding stock" rifles?

I mean are talking like a "folding" butt stock? Like the ones commonly seen on shotguns and AK series assault rifles?

And if that the case is the cry of OP because they could potentially be placed in a back pack?

If that's the case simply make it take longer than a strap mounted rifle to take out of your pack. I personally think you should be able to instantly remove anything from your pack as quickly as you can now.

 

 

Folding stock rifles are created for the very reason so they can be kept in a smaller space. They are designed to be OP. Life isn't balanced, people are always trying to build a better mousetrap. However, many folding stocks are absolutely terrible. Someone had the ingenious idea to take a folding stock made to handle the recoil of a 9mm round and put it on an AK, and here we are today. Somebody should beat that man.

[Lithium1056 45]

Folding stock rifles are created for the very reason so they can be kept in a smaller space. They are designed to be OP. Life isn't balanced, people are always trying to build a better mousetrap. However, many folding stocks are absolutely terrible. Someone had the ingenious idea to take a folding stock made to handle the recoil of a 9mm round and put it on an AK, and here we are today. Somebody should beat that man.

A AK is an AK is an AK placing a folding stock on it doesn't suddenly make it overpowered I divert to the princess bride here "you keep using that word. I don't think you know what it means!"

Also example of OP the moddle 1887 shotgun in MW2 could be dual wielded and had an effetie range if across the freaking map......... That's op

Edited July 24, 2014 by Lithium1056

[Evil Minion 943]

Why are people crying OP everytime something gives you an advantage? You see: realism balances out realistic advantages with realistic disadvantages. If you have a folding buttstock that makes it possible to put a weapon into your backpack (in this case the weapon without buttstock should also fit) then you should not be able to access it very fast (as it is inside your backpack). Also the folding stock might be less stable than the fixed one increasing sway and random dispersion (which is realistic if not overdone).

[agouti 105]

Random dispersion is never realistic, however, as stated earlier, certain buttstocks are less stable than others, such as the AK-47s (which uses the MP-40 buttstock, you know, from the WWII submachine guns). It is not able to take rifle recoil IMO. However, the newer sidefolding buttstocks are far more solid, and in some cases, on par with a solid stock.

 

People think of things as being balanced, but life isn't balanced. Assault rifles by nature aren't balanced. They give you recoil comparable to an SMG, but the killing power of a rifle. How is this balanced? This is life. Life isn't balanced.

[Evil Minion 943]

Random dispersion models the small fluctuations of ammo, barrel, buttstock/grip, your own body, the air around you, gravity etc. Its not realistic but neccessary to emulate reality as you won't even get near satisfying performance with true realism. However you can put a high amount of this into weapon sway - which makes it possible for the shooter to adjust to the randomness, leading to more rewarding gameplay. So buttstocks and handguards should affect sway while random dispersion depends on weapon type, condition and ammo condition.

 

Also: If an assault rifle gives you recoil like a submachine gun with the killing power of a rifle it needs to be much heavier than the SMG (as it fires more powerful rounds) which directly translates into more difficult handling (in game terms: turn rate, sway) and less mobility (in game terms: movement speed, inventory size and stamina costs) - things that should be important in DayZ. Same in comparison with other rifles: The magazine and the parts needed for automatic fire will increase the weight an complexity of the weapon. And manual operation increases muzzle velocity because you don't need to "hold back" a part of the energy for reloading. No, life is not balanced but if some desgns coexist they must be in some kind of equilibrium otherwise the less effective one would fade into history.

[Lithium1056 45]

I still fail to see how a rifle stock makes the gun OP? It doesn't add damage, accuracy, decrease sway so I'm confused how they got brought up other that I can stow one in a back-pack which make it harder to ready since it's now either gotta be hot-keyed or drug to hands! So confuse much lost

[Chaingunfighter 917]

In terms of the balance vs realism argument, it really depends on the specific topic.

 

For instance, lowering an M4s damage because the values are nonsensically high would be a reasonable point, but lowering it because it "kills to quickly" would be a bad reason.

 

However, when it comes to rarity, I don't necessarily want to be seeing more SVDs and PKMs than M4s just because it's a possibility they could be more common in Chernarus (throwing aside fiction and backstory) Sure, some guns could be rare for collective or uniqueness value, but run of the mill weapons (frankly I don't think the M4A1 is a specialized rifle at all) need to have a tiered system.

Sure, you'd probably find more SKS rifles than Ruger 10/22s, but in the interest of gameplay the SKS is a higher-tier and therefore has to be made a rarer weapon to accommodate for its advantages. I'm all for an asymmetric gunplay experience (A freshspawn with a Sporter should not be easily matched with someone with an AKM) but the better weapons have to be made rarer.

[agouti 105]

I still fail to see how a rifle stock makes the gun OP? It doesn't add damage, accuracy, decrease sway so I'm confused how they got brought up other that I can stow one in a back-pack which make it harder to ready since it's now either gotta be hot-keyed or drug to hands! So confuse much lost

 

 

I think we have different interpretations of this word. For one, I consider the word OP to be non-existent. It is a made up concept which isn't real. Shotguns not dispersing across a map is unrealistic, and out of the realm of reality. A rifle that kicks like an smg, but kills like a rifle, and can be kept stowed away in a bag is awesome, realistic, and some people will cry "OP". The fact that something can be controlled and still kill people just rustles some people's jimmies.

 

Just remember what they say about OP, what he is.

[agouti 105]

tiers tiers tiers

 

Not into tiers man. Guns are different things made for different purposes with different groups of people in mind. The SKS was made because comrade stalin thought soldiers would lose mags. The AK was made as something of an LMG. The ruger 10/22 was made to kill squirrels and plink. Eastern bloc weapons were at one point simpler and made to require less training and maintenance, and designed to be manufactured at large centralized factories, whereas the aluminum receivers AR can be pumped out of any small machine shop.

 

I meant to make this an edit to the previous post. Wish I could delete it.

Edited July 31, 2014 by agouti

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Not into tiers man. Guns are different things made for different purposes with different groups of people in mind. The SKS was made because comrade stalin thought soldiers would lose mags. The AK was made as something of an LMG. The ruger 10/22 was made to kill squirrels and plink. Eastern bloc weapons were at one point simpler and made to require less training and maintenance, and designed to be manufactured at large centralized factories, whereas the aluminum receivers AR can be pumped out of any small machine shop.

 

I meant to make this an edit to the previous post. Wish I could delete it.

By "tiers" I just meant that weapons should be rare based on their overall effectiveness, rather than realism alone. I mean, yes, that is a factor, been when dictating gameplay it's a minor one. A weapon's rate of fire, damage, magazine capacity, modularity, range, accuracy, are what really need to judge the weapon's rarity, not just the fact that an SKS is more realistic than a 10/22.

As of right now, a final balanced weapons rarity list would probably have the Sporter-22, IZH-43, CR-527, P1, and Makarov IJ-70-17F as the most common of the weapons, while the Blaze 95, LongHorn, CR75, PM-73, and 1911 would be uncommon, the AKM, SKS, Mosin, Magnum, Amphibia, and MP5-K would be pretty rare, and the AK-101, FNX-45, and M4A1 would be the current rarest weapons.

Sure, it's unrealistic that the AKM and Mosin and SKS are less common than a multi-thousand dollar hunting rifle and a single shot Thompson Contender, but for pragmatic reasons it's necessary.

[agouti 105]

That's what I don't understand. AKMs are more common than the SKS, thus it should be more common. It goes from a highly realistic experience to something more arcadey. I'd like to see the AK-74su on BMPs and trucks, the AKM in the military outposts. The SKS, Ruger 10/22, mosin, both shotguns, and CZ-527 should be in hunting cabins (and sometimes a handgun), the M4s on downed helicopters, and the longhorn and blaze super rare hunting rifles which one might also find in a cabin or maybe piano house (the wealthy house). Handguns should be in random houses. The police station should have a pump shotgun when it's released, the mp5, and whatever sort of handgun is standard issue to the police force, along with whatever sharpshooter rifle is common, and other carbines as is common.

 

You might be wondering then, what is the point if the AKM is so common? Would this ruin gameplay? I don't know. I've never played a (MMO) sandbox tactical fps, this is new territory. Stalker made it so handguns were the norm until you left a certain point, but that whole thing seemed bizarre. To me it stands, the AK is a cheap common rifle, so it should be widespread. Maybe counter this by introducing other strange rifles at the helicopter crash sights that have superior accuracy and less recoil (the M4, various other 5.56 rifles), or more range, like battle rifles. The AK does have its weakpoints, and I feel this could easily be mitigated. In the mod, my buddy and I just hung out in the woods by gas stations or just outside of towns (berezino in particular) and just used DMRs or anti-material rifles. Nobody ever came close to hitting us at 500+ yards. Of course I got butthurt and stopped playing when I had to shoot someone twice with a .308 to kill them. It just became counterstrike sandbox to me at that point. The DMR was super common in the mod, but I was under the impression the m14 was something of a rarity in life. I've only ever seen one for sale before, and it had a very hefty price tag.

[rybec 339]

That's what I don't understand. AKMs are more common than the SKS, thus it should be more common. It goes from a highly realistic experience to something more arcadey. I'd like to see the AK-74su on BMPs and trucks, the AKM in the military outposts. The SKS, Ruger 10/22, mosin, both shotguns, and CZ-527 should be in hunting cabins (and sometimes a handgun), the M4s on downed helicopters, and the longhorn and blaze super rare hunting rifles which one might also find in a cabin or maybe piano house (the wealthy house). Handguns should be in random houses. The police station should have a pump shotgun when it's released, the mp5, and whatever sort of handgun is standard issue to the police force, along with whatever sharpshooter rifle is common, and other carbines as is common.

 

You might be wondering then, what is the point if the AKM is so common? Would this ruin gameplay? I don't know. I've never played a (MMO) sandbox tactical fps, this is new territory. Stalker made it so handguns were the norm until you left a certain point, but that whole thing seemed bizarre. To me it stands, the AK is a cheap common rifle, so it should be widespread. Maybe counter this by introducing other strange rifles at the helicopter crash sights that have superior accuracy and less recoil (the M4, various other 5.56 rifles), or more range, like battle rifles. The AK does have its weakpoints, and I feel this could easily be mitigated. In the mod, my buddy and I just hung out in the woods by gas stations or just outside of towns (berezino in particular) and just used DMRs or anti-material rifles. Nobody ever came close to hitting us at 500+ yards. Of course I got butthurt and stopped playing when I had to shoot someone twice with a .308 to kill them. It just became counterstrike sandbox to me at that point. The DMR was super common in the mod, but I was under the impression the m14 was something of a rarity in life. I've only ever seen one for sale before, and it had a very hefty price tag.

Because it's a game the weapons are placed like a pyramid. You have the low rate of fire, low calibre, wood-stocked weapons at the bottom with high spawn rates at the bottom. As you go up you make your way to automatic rifles, battle rifles, DMRs, and other tacticool weapons with lower spawn rates.

 

What was funny in the mod was that at the start you saw many many people with the revolver and not much else. A couple M4s and AKs once in a while, you saw a guy or two with a DMR from who knows where, and you rarely saw a mythical AS50. As time went on, weapons didn't go out of circulation unless you had an instance where some guy with an AS50 killed another with the rifle, and buried the body or stuck it in a tent. Since few left circulation, you eventually end up with more people than not with all these (once rare) weapons stockpiled.

 

Back on topic, an AKM being more common may be more logical, but for gameplay reasons an SKS should be more common. It's level on terms of accuracy, range, and "stoppan powah". The only difference is it's less lenient for missing due to the need to reload every ten shots (easier with a stripper clip). You'll still run into that occurance of more AKMs and other "higher tier" weapons being common through staying in circulation.

 

[agouti 105]

I just am in utter disbelief how a game can make movement purposefully clunky to simulate wearing gear, have multiple blood types, food poisoning from rotten fruit, and all manner of brutal realistic behavior, and then at the last second go: you know what? Let's tier weapons. It's the anti-game.