"Realism" and a fine line between fun and it being too much.

[Nibashe 52]

Okay, after going over some patch notes, future planning and upcoming features I was discussing this with some other people last night...

 

First of all, we are playing a videogame. Not a real life simulator. The main reason of a game is to entertain. If you want to be entertained in a single player environment or a multiplayer environment, it does not really matter, as long as things are fun and enjoyable. Day Z has always been a lot of fun. The Mod started with a lot of issues and is still being plagued with a lot of these issues, but it does not take the fact away that it always has been an amazing experience and I've spend hours of fun and social interaction with lots and lots of people.

 

When the SA got released I did not know what to expect. My first impression was "hmmm it's okay but I will keep playing the mod until they release some more content" however, 2 or 3 days more of playing got me hooked. The graphics, the fun social interaction where people tend to be complete psychos, the will to survive and not be seen by other players... I love it and I still do. Sure there is still a lot to be worked on, sure there are some flaws and of course I do realize that this game is in Alpha status and that a lot of things are not working as intended, however I can honestly say that this is one of the most fun gaming experiences I've had in many many years. Thumbs up for the entire team that has been working on this. The laughs me and my friends have had playing this game.... I can not remember having so much fun and being so excited about a game as with this one. I've been working for a company that released the biggest MMO out there, I've had my fair share of experience in debugging, interaction and dealing with new content and the reaction of the players that are reviewing this content, so I am also not surprised by the reaction of a lot of people thinking that this game has been made just to cater their needs only and whatever they do not like, they want to have removed.

 

This is not one of these kind of reactions. This is just a mere suggestion/opinion of someone who is enjoying this game a lot and would like to know if there are more likeminded people out there. This game is in Alpha status and it could still go into any direction, so sharing my opinion should not be a problem.

 

So here is my opinion: This game got released in alpha status with a set of features and gameplay mechanics. Most of it was based on social interaction and combat. It made it a lot of fun. Things like handcuffs, holding up people and things like that could result in the most hilarious situations. Yes, the game is a survival game, but at that point it was until a certain extent. So in the last couple of months, more and more patches got released and more content has been added. It has been a lot of fun with implementing new guns, clothes, colours, towns and optimizations. The bleeding system got better, however a little alarmbell started to go off when I first noticed a "blood testing kit". My first reaction was "hey, are they not taking this a little bit TOO serious?" But well, me and my group of friends did not take notice to it and we kept on going. After some patches I started to read things about a defib kit, heart rates, blood types and more and more realistic characteristics regarding the human body. I discussed this with some other people and all of us basically came to the same conclusion.... We were hoping this would not get too serious. Right after we finished discussing this, I was checking the new patch notes and "heart attacks" were going to get introduced. I was reading up about this and this is the main reason I wanted to open this topic.

 

Could it go TOO far in DayZ? Could it take the human body and interactions too far? Could it go at the cost of fun? Don't get me wrong. I am all for a survival game, however I would not enjoy a game that would take itself too serious regarding your health and diet. There is a fine line between semi-realism and fun and complete realism. Most people do not play a game only to get confronted with the same realism they face when they turn off the computer. I really hope that this game does not decide to take the direction of taking these aspects too serious, and try to keep it fun. Of course there will always be a group of people who want complete realism, but who would expect that when you play a game based on a ZOMBIE apocalypse? Please keep things fun and accessible for everybody and do not try and put in as many things as possible and then STILL need to optimize, put in vehicles, loot etc. People are even suggesting the ability to shit in the woods, smoke drugs... come on.. Could we first work on fixing the base and go from there? The basics that the mod already provided and proved to be really successful? Do we really need heart attacks, clogged up arteries, explosive shits and things like this? What is survival for you? Is it to not be spotted, collect fluids and food, and retreat and find a group of trustworthy people and hunt down gear to increase your chances of survival in combination of persistent storage units like tents that will still be there after server restarts, or does survival for you mean not getting a wet tshirt and a random chance to drop dead from a heart attack while you are taking a shit in the woods smoking a bong? There will be people saying it is a combination of both, but what would you sacrifice for the basic need of having fun in a game without having to think of a hundred of other things that will just stress you out instead of having a great gameplay experience?

 

I still hope that the game will stick to it's core. As I said before, this is not a rant or a whinepost, just my humble opinion. In my opinion it would be great to introduce the features that were present in the mod first (after optimizing and current bug solving) and then see what could be added more to the game. I personally do not need a patch that introduces loads of new things every week. I know this game is in alpha, I am patient and prefer quality over quantity. So I would prefer that the Dev team would take the time they need to work on core implementations and optimizations first and keep delivering an amazing game like they have been doing so far.

 

Thanks for the long read. :) I hope there are more people out there who share my opinion.

[TheWanderingMan 170]

So many walts and paintballer types playing this game, pretending that they are in the military. Fair enough if that's what you want to do but don't act like you're an expert on all things army just because you play computer games.

[Geckofrog7 1169]

Tired and had to read a lot of british lit today...remind me to come back to this later.

/talking to self out loud

Edited February 20, 2014 by Geckofrog7

[t1337dude 101]

It's pretty simple stuff really - the new medical system. It adds depth and complexity to the game. It becomes too much when it becomes a contrivance to the experience. As far as I'm concerned, the system in the DayZ mod was too cartoonish and too simple. The direction they're going towards is more representative of a meaty game with replayability due to the vast amounts of possible options and scenarios.

 

I'm not sure why people are so afraid of additional gameplay details? As long as it's roughly modeling how real life works - it should all be relatively intuitive and straight forward, no?

Edited February 20, 2014 by t1337Dude

[Nibashe 52]

So many walts and paintballer types playing this game, pretending that they are in the military. Fair enough if that's what you want to do but don't act like you're an expert on all things army just because you play computer games.

 

What are you talking about? You completely missed the point...

[Hethwill_Khan 233]

New Health stuff actually is not that complicated... and makes it IMPERATIVE to have a dedicated Doc on a group for sure. Each man may carry the essential first aid stuff, but a dedicated medic is essential after all the disease, infection, and trauma are properly introduced.

 

Some of the "dispensable" stuff like taking craps or marking trees with beer leftovers are just that.... dispensable. Add absolutely nothing positive and not worth the time to implement.

[Nibashe 52]

It's pretty simple stuff really - the new medical system. It adds depth and complexity to the game. It becomes too much when it becomes a contrivance to the experience. As far as I'm concerned, the system in the DayZ mod was too cartoonish and too simple. The direction they're going towards is more representative of a meaty game with replayability due to the vast amounts of possible options and scenarios.

 

I'm not sure why people are so afraid of additional gameplay details? As long as it's roughly modeling how real life works - it should all be relatively intuitive and straight forward, no?

 

Of course, I can see why people enjoy it. Like I said, people have different opinions about the game, and that's just how it is, and I don't mind whatsoever. I personally loved the system in the mod, maybe because I've joined it in a much later phase. I don't mind realism, but for me it goes until a certain extend. I was reading about a guy getting a random heart attack out of nowhere. It might not be accurate however random heart attacks caused by absolutely nothing is not something I would like to see in this game for example.

 

Heatpacks, fires to dry yourself, medication and even the chance to build a lab and develop a cure for viruses and create these as well, that sounds absolutely great. I was merely talking about the random aspects of the human body.

[slider (DayZ) 26]

I like games where everything is as realistic as possible, so that I can identify myself with the character, but a setting that I would never experince in RL.I don't know about you, but if I turn of my computer, I am not in a post-apocalyptic szenario where I have to cope with bandits and zombies. ;)

Of course I neither want to push out my pimpels in the morning or shit my pants because I don't find a toilet in a game. But to some extend, like having to stay dry so that I don't get ill and stuff like that, it makes whole experince of a game more interesting. I was a big fan of Operation Flashpoint, and until now I still remember how great it (and stupid somehow^^) it was to crawl back and forth for over an hour through the night just to put some mines on a couple of tanks.

I wouldn't like dayz if I only had to shoot and run. If want stupid chaotic shooting and violence I turn on the Duke. All Hail To The King, Baby!!!

[Nibashe 52]

New Health stuff actually is not that complicated... and makes it IMPERATIVE to have a dedicated Doc on a group for sure. Each man may carry the essential first aid stuff, but a dedicated medic is essential after all the disease, infection, and trauma are properly introduced.

 

Some of the "dispensable" stuff like taking craps or marking trees with beer leftovers are just that.... dispensable. Add absolutely nothing positive and not worth the time to implement.

 

Maybe I am making it too difficult as I did not see the end result yet. However with this being in a development phase, all input should be welcomed as long as it is in a constructed manner right? I agree that keeping yourself healthy is an important aspect of the game. You should not have to rely on another though to keep you healthy as this game is based on survival, which is in some situations easier by yourself. I would welcome a good health system and a way to maintain your character, however, then it should have an option to keep your stuff on a server after a restart so you can always keep yourself healthy by falling back on to your base (something as simple as a stash tent) with the risk if it being completely looted and destroyed by other players.

[Disgraced 1123]

People who think this game approaches realistic or use the "realistic" argument are deluded.

This game will never approach realistic. Mechanics that try to simulate realistic situations in the context of a game, certainly.

It's all just game mechanics. Broken legs zapped with morphine, wounds fixed by 5 seconds of bandaging, dying of thirst in less than one day...

People excuse certain things based on their own perception and want from the game. People will excuse the rate of thirst or rate of starvation. The spawn point concept does not fit reality. There are a million things that differentiate a game from reality.

This game is fun in its own unusual way, and that has aspects that could be termed realistic for lack of a better term but it is not and it will never be realistic.

To the OPs point, I like the additional detail and complexity if it can be worked out in the framework of the game. A lot of Dayz requires you to just know how something works by finding it on the internet. I think that aspect could be minimized but I'm not sure the community would want it so. There are things I like to see that make the game more brutal, challenging, difficult, whatever. Some of them are health related and some are not.

I choose to ride out all of the feature experiments, creep and equipment gyrations and wait until the dev team actually puts something forward and asks us as a community what we want after they have all the tricks in the bag.

Tl;dr the game is not realistic and it will have what the dev spit in it.

[eleventhavenue 204]

The day I die to SOMETHING other than a glitch or someone shooting me 10 times, I might start considering if the other features of the game is ´´too much´´.

(It is not too much right now)

[soulfirez 901]

LOL so many sudden game developers appearing in this forum its amazing ,hey i am not saying your not but id say if you were do you really think the devs will take notice of this???

 

There has been a clear plan for how far they will try to go with the SA as you say first sign of it was blood types. Suddenly a new feature is announced that takes the game closer to a realistic survival exeperience and without even having tested it your response is woah this is going to far.....

 

Sorry it is going to be a little more than a loot and shoot game we are all here for the ride as sorry to say it has always been deans dream of making an indepth survival game based on his army experiences and that was long before he added zeds for the cool factor and dayz the mod was born...

 

I think you should wait and see how it turns out and hey if it goes to far in your opinion you dont have to play it... I just get the feeling you wanted an updated version of the mod well guess what now he has access to the engine and the support of BIS he is trying to make the game he envisioned not the one that became from mods of his mods glorified on youtube as nothing more as open world deathmatches(as entertaining as some of them were)

 

SURELY AS A DEVELOPER YOURSELF YOU CAN SEE THE MERIT IN FOLLOWING YOUR ORIGINAL PLAN RATHER THAN QUIVERING BECAUSE A FEW PEOPLE ON THE FORUM GO WOAH MAYBE TO FAR... this forum makes up a tiny percent of dayz players it is not the centre of its world even with the huge amount of um developers posting here.......

[TheWanderingMan 170]

What are you talking about? You completely missed the point...

 

Walt senses tingling..........

[crazykage 1063]

I am all for a medical system that is more complicated. Even VERY complicated. Would encourage more roleplay, teamplay, and would make the medical role a very interesting one.

 

But frankly, I think the game can do without scat and piss. I think that this goes to far. I don't come here daily to watch my guy pull down his pants, squat, squeeze out and pinch out a log. And I SURE A SHIT FUCK BALLS do not come here so that another player can exercise his deepest, darkest, homo erotic sexual dominations scat fantasies on me by force feeding me his own turd, shitting on me, or throwing it at me. Give this feature to the players, and THIS WILL HAPPEN.

 

I am absolutely serious here, devs. IF PLAYERS ARE GIVEN THE ABILITY TO THROW SHIT AT ME, FORCE FEED IT TO ME, OR SHIT ON ME, I will NOT be playing this game from that point on. If my guy has to go squat in a bush now and then, fine. Its a ridiculous feature, IMO, but its one I can put up with. But I will NOT play a game that allows players to do the afore mentioned. I will gladly swallow the $30, and leave.

[LaughingJack (DayZ) 767]

I'll just post a little bit older thread here, where exatly this topic - after a quote from rocket - was discussed:

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/173083-how-much-authenticity-is-too-much/?p=1766544

 

So if you want, read it, especially regarding the health / medic system...

Edited February 20, 2014 by LaughingJack

[t1337dude 101]

I am all for a medical system that is more complicated. Even VERY complicated. Would encourage more roleplay, teamplay, and would make the medical role a very interesting one.

 

But frankly, I think the game can do without scat and piss. I think that this goes to far. I don't come here daily to watch my guy pull down his pants, squat, squeeze out and pinch out a log. And I SURE A SHIT FUCK BALLS do not come here so that another player can exercise his deepest, darkest, homo erotic sexual dominations scat fantasies on me by force feeding me his own turd, shitting on me, or throwing it at me. Give this feature to the players, and THIS WILL HAPPEN.

 

I am absolutely serious here, devs. IF PLAYERS ARE GIVEN THE ABILITY TO THROW SHIT AT ME, FORCE FEED IT TO ME, OR SHIT ON ME, I will NOT be playing this game from that point on. If my guy has to go squat in a bush now and then, fine. Its a ridiculous feature, IMO, but its one I can put up with. But I will NOT play a game that allows players to do the afore mentioned. I will gladly swallow the $30, and leave.

I'll buy another game copy and give it to a friend if Rocket adds shit-flinging.

[Window Licker 504]

Okay this is gonna come out a little disorganized cos I'm Half asleep but...

 

From what I understand of your post your concerned that the systems are going to become too complicated, life in DayZ is supposed to be difficult, hard to survive.  Now this is where it get's a little dicey, because my opinion and belief about what dean is doing is different from everybody else's as far as over all vision unless someone would link it for me?

 

But I'm going for the life is dangerous in Chenurus, some people work as search and rescue (irl) because being lost/stuck/injured in the wood's etc can prove fatal however there is people how have the knowledge that significantly improves their chances of survival in such situation's.  While I have no numbers being caught out unprepared kills a good amount of people.  In DayZ with the systems that are being implemented, I'm of the opinion that it's going to contribute to the "end game" while this isn't a fantasy MMO  lack of end game kill's those game faster then drinking disinfectant.  If your long term survival is something you've spent week's on your gonna be extremely attached to your character it will add a value that currently isn't there right now, currently death is an inconvenience and regearing while it's slowly taking longer, isn't too much of a hassle.

 

Having friend's who have the knowledge and equipment to enable the long term survival of a group would be very valuable, break a limb and no-one's got morphine or a splint wishing your medic friend was online cos he carries a ton of that knida stuff.

 

Complexity is good imo, but I draw the line at having to dig a hole and drop a duce.

[Hethwill_Khan 233]

Maybe I am making it too difficult as I did not see the end result yet. However with this being in a development phase, all input should be welcomed as long as it is in a constructed manner right? I agree that keeping yourself healthy is an important aspect of the game. You should not have to rely on another though to keep you healthy as this game is based on survival, which is in some situations easier by yourself. I would welcome a good health system and a way to maintain your character, however, then it should have an option to keep your stuff on a server after a restart so you can always keep yourself healthy by falling back on to your base (something as simple as a stash tent) with the risk if it being completely looted and destroyed by other players.

 

Yep, I see your point. But if you get in a tough situation where two armed groups meet, then health and healthcare takes emergency levels.

Checking pulses, applying Epipens or Defibs, bandaging, cleaning wounds, painkillers, etc. You cannot dettach frontline men to come back and help the others, especially when non of the groups wants to leave the place.

 

The whole chain of reviving someone one takes time, is not anymore a simple matter. We need that to give away to specializations of Survivors. 

 

Day by day survival is slow paced and can be managed alone IF you find the correct stuff but you won't be able to COVER all scenarios. You will need someone to help you eventually, and I like that philosophy.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Hethwill_Khan

[dallas 5195]

Adding complexity and depth to the game mechanics prolong the learning curve and separate the players willing to learn from the player willing to not. The team tries to avoid realism and aims for authenticity and it's important to make that distinction. 

[dgeesio 1034]

tbh at the moment alot of people who arnt playing are just waiting for vehicles or base building in some form to be added.

 

i like some of the realism touches in game but some shit does leave me scratching my head sometimes :)

 

overall the game should be fun first reality second ;)

 

you cant make a video game real ! getting the balance right is always tricky :D

[LeChat 131]

I am all for a medical system that is more complicated. Even VERY complicated. Would encourage more roleplay, teamplay, and would make the medical role a very interesting one.

 

But frankly, I think the game can do without scat and piss. I think that this goes to far. I don't come here daily to watch my guy pull down his pants, squat, squeeze out and pinch out a log. And I SURE A SHIT FUCK BALLS do not come here so that another player can exercise his deepest, darkest, homo erotic sexual dominations scat fantasies on me by force feeding me his own turd, shitting on me, or throwing it at me. Give this feature to the players, and THIS WILL HAPPEN.

 

I am absolutely serious here, devs. IF PLAYERS ARE GIVEN THE ABILITY TO THROW SHIT AT ME, FORCE FEED IT TO ME, OR SHIT ON ME, I will NOT be playing this game from that point on. If my guy has to go squat in a bush now and then, fine. Its a ridiculous feature, IMO, but its one I can put up with. But I will NOT play a game that allows players to do the afore mentioned. I will gladly swallow the $30, and leave.

 

Do you honestly believe that Dean would actually implement shit and piss, particularly in a way where people can do stuff with it? I hope, for his sake... that he possess an intellect that is greater than that of a five year old. While he probably strives for some sort of realism, I think he is past shit-humour.

 

My guess is that he and the rest of the team will focus on survival skills and an injury system that keeps things a little bit more complex than: "do one thing and you're back at full health". Personally I feel that it is a step in the right direction, I am not entirely sure I agree with the time of implementation with it - cause I would like to see other things before, but since I have no say in it - I'll just have to accept the fact that it is still a step forward in my book. I hope that things such as coldness and dampness will eventually if not taken care of, lead to hypothermia and eventually death if it is prolonged or if you're exposed to cold temperatures.

[Rick1633 136]

So even a guy who helped make the biggest mmo game is saying putting heart attacks in dayz is stupid or takes away the fun.   But when i said this last night i got flamed.  Seriously, why do we need heart attacks if we can barely survive all the kos that happens?   On servers with only 8 peope i cant avoid fire fights, what the fuck do we need heart attacks for?

[soulfirez 901]

So even a guy who helped make the biggest mmo game is saying putting heart attacks in dayz is stupid or takes away the fun.   But when i said this last night i got flamed.  Seriously, why do we need heart attacks if we can barely survive all the kos that happens?   On servers with only 8 peope i cant avoid fire fights, what the fuck do we need heart attacks for?

you cant avoid KOS get of the coast and head up north.. what do we need them for hmm well need is a strong word but id say they are trying them as they want an authentic survival game they want to make it complex enough to have you spending your time trying to survive rather than a quick gear up and head to the coast and shoot everyone.. purely speculation there ( except the get of the coast if you want to live longer in current state of alpha)

 

As for the OP's credentials are they shown ?? I can say i am the president of the united states does it make it so nope but can you prove i am not...

Edited February 20, 2014 by SoulFirez

[Nibashe 52]

LOL so many sudden game developers appearing in this forum its amazing ,hey i am not saying your not but id say if you were do you really think the devs will take notice of this???

 

There has been a clear plan for how far they will try to go with the SA as you say first sign of it was blood types. Suddenly a new feature is announced that takes the game closer to a realistic survival exeperience and without even having tested it your response is woah this is going to far.....

 

Sorry it is going to be a little more than a loot and shoot game we are all here for the ride as sorry to say it has always been deans dream of making an indepth survival game based on his army experiences and that was long before he added zeds for the cool factor and dayz the mod was born...

 

I think you should wait and see how it turns out and hey if it goes to far in your opinion you dont have to play it... I just get the feeling you wanted an updated version of the mod well guess what now he has access to the engine and the support of BIS he is trying to make the game he envisioned not the one that became from mods of his mods glorified on youtube as nothing more as open world deathmatches(as entertaining as some of them were)

 

SURELY AS A DEVELOPER YOURSELF YOU CAN SEE THE MERIT IN FOLLOWING YOUR ORIGINAL PLAN RATHER THAN QUIVERING BECAUSE A FEW PEOPLE ON THE FORUM GO WOAH MAYBE TO FAR... this forum makes up a tiny percent of dayz players it is not the centre of its world even with the huge amount of um developers posting here.......

 

 

The way you talk, so condescending, is there a reason for it? Where did I mention I was a developer? I said I had my fair share of experience. I never mentioned I was a programmer nor a developer. I completely lack the technical skills for it. Maybe you should read before you sperg. I said it was merely my humble opinion and in no way I want to direct the devs in different direction than what they have in mind.

 

I don't mind constructive criticism, however your way of communicating sounds completely irrational.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

@ OP.  Not every game is going to made for "you".  Not everything is going to be enjoyable for the "masses"(simpletons).  Maybe you should have done some research on what DayZ is about before buying the pre-alpha.