Let's talk about heavy weapons

[Etherimp 1323]

That would be one very dead mortar crew.

 

Also the mortar would be completely balanced with something like this in place.

 

As for groups of people in the server become overpowered isnt that the point of teaming up ?

 

Why should there be a balance of power, just like real life those that team up and have the big guns will have the power. Most of the weapons mentioned are also static, crew served weapons they would not be used to kill targets of opportunity they would be used to defend, or attack fortifications.

 

 

Because it's bad for game play, which is why heavy weapons have never been a part of DayZ.

 

In my humble opinion, even Helicopters were too "overpowered" in DayZ mod, and if it were up to me they would not make an appearance in Standalone because they actually hurt the over-all game play and ruin the fun for more people than they add fun for.

[soulfirez 901]

I don't use a car >.< I ride a bike. Really, idk why im arguing with an australian about weapons, as I remember they banned most firearms and now have issues with people making their own. 

 

Now, you keep bringing up gritty survival game. Don't you feel that the game is missing an entirely mechanical aspect? What could be grittier than working on an engine for your armor plated go cart and welding a pkm to the top roll rail? Come on nowww. Sure, there is a more primal grit, like cave man style. There will be more throwing items and bows and what not, why not improvised explosives for anti vehicle. Already there are destroyed armor models all over the military zones, why wouldnt there be tank shells or mortar rounds that could be used in a craftable reciepy for a timed explosive, or impact detonated device. That would be pretty damn gritty. 

 

Also, when you say straight edge for 15 years, are you saying that you are 15 years old? lol

Ill ignore the insults and the lack of knoledge you have for my country and point out you did not read my post where i said i could see them going as far as taking a civilian car welding home made armour on it and perhaps mounting a lmg of some kind..

 

improvised explosives are already planned the files are already in the game for a home made explosive ( oh but you cant be bothered looking to see whaat  is going to be in the game can you ) these things are not what gibonz is asking for he is pointing to modifying high grade weapons from attack helicopters and using that i dont know about you but after 8 years in the Australian army where i helped fight an american war (iraq under your brilliant yeah right president bush senior) i wouldnt attempt to even do that .......

[gibonez 3633]

Because it's bad for game play, which is why heavy weapons have never been a part of DayZ.

 

In my humble opinion, even Helicopters were too "overpowered" in DayZ mod, and if it were up to me they would not make an appearance in Standalone because they actually hurt the over-all game play and ruin the fun for more people than they add fun for.

 

Thats were we disagree friend.

 

I like having a group in the server that has all of the good stuff. Every server needs to have that group of players that others fear and work together against.

 

Without that the game quickly becomes boring.

[dirby12 33]

are you serious with the rpg suggestion =D?

[Etherimp 1323]

Thats were we disagree friend.

 

I like having a group in the server that has all of the good stuff. Every server needs to have that group of players that others fear and work together against.

 

Without that the game quickly becomes boring.

 

 

The game becomes boring when nobody can touch you.

 

The game becomes boring when you can't compete with someone because they out-gear you.

 

In the mod, the difference between a Lee Enfield or a Winchester (which could be found anywhere), and a DMR, or MK Mod 0... 

 

Lee Enfield had no scope, but did as much damage as a DMR or MK Mod.

Winchester had no scope, but could kill in 1-2 shots.

 

The Range of the Winchester was 100-200 meters.. maybe.

The Range of the Lee was 400+

 

The DMR was considered by many to be "the most powerful weapon", simply because it was the only sniper rifle you could use night vision with.. and imo, that made it overpowered. The Mod needed to either make ALL scoped weapons compatible with Night Vision, or none of them.

The MK Mod had an incredible rate of fire and did tons of damage, but lacked long range capability outside of .. say.. 300 meters. 

 

So, the DMR and MK Mod were better than the Lee and Winchester, YES.. so it gave people a reason to search out the better weapons, AND it gave the players who had them high value targets..

 

Thing is, you could still kill those players with some skill and patience. Get in close or catch them by surprise, and suddenly the Winchester or Lee aren't so bad.. In fact they're quite capable.

 

 

Now compare that to a armored Humvee driving through Elektro lighting up fresh spawns with a full auto .50 Cal Machine Gun mounted on the roof...How is anyone with a Winchester or Lee Enfield (Or Mosin/SKS) going to counter that? Answer is: They can't.

 

Same with Mortars. They don't need line of sight on a target to bombard it.... And furthermore, there would be no reason to bombard anything other than to harass players who are less geared than you, which is not fun for those players and would get boring for you.

 

Every game play decision needs to have counter-play in order to make it fun for both sides.

[ilikeguns 12]

I would LOVE to have mortars available. They should be of course hard to shoot, like in that ACE video so 95% wouldn't be able to use them properly. Those people who say this and that does not belong and we don't want that - to me it's like a mind of an alien, something completely impossible for me to understand, why would anyone be against having more firepower. If you are a lone survivor you wouldn't be using those anyway and nobody would use it on you because you are to small and insignificant to waste mortar shots on you. But why not let those who play as organized groups have some firepower to fight among themselves? Wouldn't it be fun even for you, tiny belly crawling bean gathering survivor to someday hear that sound of horror when mortar round approaches and then see that explosion out in the field and know that something is going on there, that this world is alive and there are people doing things and not just you alone and your beans.

 

But realistically speaking, I don't think this is ever going to happen in this game.

Edited February 15, 2014 by ilikeguns

[Combine (DayZ) 247]

I like the general idea.

 

No one is asking for tanks, jets or nukes. Though I can imagine an armored APC (without any weapon) as one of the best things available. However, some more heavy weapons are inevitable if we'll face certain base building in the future. And / or vehicles.

 

What is realistic and still good for gameplay?

 

Heavy machineguns and mortars to deploy and handle via crew. These items would be present somewhere, CDF forces served as UN troops and there were perhaps other forces around before. They could have any stuff around, but those named seem more common or realistic either way. As for the named items:

 

It adds 'area control' but one can still flank those things or take cover when talking about MGs. As for mortars, some are really "overblowing" the issue. "Butt they could camp the coast". Newsflash: Some people do it already and don't need these kind of things. In fact, they're more effective without these things to restrict them. You can still flank a deployed heavy MG. And it's not like anyone can shit mortar shells and constantly "spam" an area with it. Fire off a few and the fun might be over. Maybe you have 20 or 30, still not really a lot if you think about it. Once under fire, you can take cover or just get out of the killzone. In comparison, a mobile ground team is still more effective to clear out a place completely.

 

These heavy weapons (no, not tanks and such!) are good for one thing, too. Group warfare that'll happen whether you like it or not. And it's still a survival game. Essentially, nothing would change. Quite the other way, it might encourage people to join groups as you'd have more gameplay mechanics available for those in the long run.

 

Again, I'm mostly talking about MGs that you can deploy for suppression or assault OR at best mortars for ranged suppression. And also grenades and perhaps bombs, military or otherwise. Some of that was in the mod already.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Combine

[ilikeguns 12]

Same with Mortars. They don't need line of sight on a target to bombard it.... And furthermore, there would be no reason to bombard anything other than to harass players who are less geared than you, which is not fun for those players and would get boring for you.

 

Every game play decision needs to have counter-play in order to make it fun for both sides.

I see your point, but today I am bombarding you and tomorrow maybe if you work hard enough you are bombarding me. See, it is fun for everyone.

[Templar72260 0]

I don't understand why some people would not want heavy weapons such as RPGs when vehicles are implementend. We need a way to destroy vehicles other than shooting at them like dumb fucks. Moreover, the lack of reality woud not be having heavy weapons but not having them. Indeed, we can easily imagine that in a 225km² area full of military buildings there are some heavy weapons. It's not far fetched to imagine that the military discipline suffered a little bit from the zombie apocalypse. 

[over9000nukez 199]

I like the idea, when you want to "build" want of these heavy arms turrets you might need a group carrying like one of every piece, or 2 pieces each, and I like the tripwire traps as well, I just think it would be frustrating if you had an awesome car and someone just blasted you,  so tripwires/bombs would have to be sort of rare to counteract that, like 200% more rare then a functional, manned car

[Etherimp 1323]

I don't understand why some people would not want heavy weapons such as RPGs when vehicles are implementend. We need a way to destroy vehicles other than shooting at them like dumb fucks. Moreover, the lack of reality woud not be having heavy weapons but not having them. Indeed, we can easily imagine that in a 225km² area full of military buildings there are some heavy weapons. It's not far fetched to imagine that the military discipline suffered a little bit from the zombie apocalypse. 

 

 

Here's a simple reason why some people do not want heavy weapons: They're not appropriate for DayZ.

 

 

If you want heavy weapons there are plenty of games which offer them.

Furthermore, vehicles can easily be destroyed with high-caliber rounds.

 

And to the whole "mortar" thing...

 

Mortars are devastating to structures and infantry, but a setting like DayZ  would not be appropriate for people to realistically use mortars.. They would simply be used to shoot into towns and frag fresh spawns. You say "Oh well people already kill fresh spawns!".. Yeah, but currently people have to have line-of-sight on a fresh spawn to do so.. With Mortars they could sit 2000m away and fire over a hill, bombarding heavily frequented structures, killing everyone inside EVERY TIME.. there's no counter-play for that from the perspective of a fresh spawn (or even someone with an assault rifle.).. That mortar team could literally be ANYWHERE within a certain radius. At least sniper rifles you can hear the shots.

 

Fortunately, no matter how much some people want this, I highly doubt it will ever happen in DayZ, so have fun with your pipe dreams... and in the meantime, go play BF4 or ARMA3.

 

 

Just to give you an idea...

 

 

 

The M225 LWCMS (Lightweight Company Mortar System) replaced the older (WWII-era) 60 mm M2 Mortar and M19 Mortar. These weapons only had an effective range of 2,000 m (2,187 yd).

Edited February 15, 2014 by Etherimp

[over9000nukez 199]

here's the thing, people would need to be organized, and start collecting all the parts (assuming their not going to be very common) and then start building it, if you had a clan this would work best, if you were a lone survivor this is realistic because you wouldn't have the lone wolf building a vehicle ready to go to war, look at the rick/governor fight in walking dead, or even the comic,

now organized groups would be able to fit some nice machine gun turrets on top of those, and your example with Syria was awesome too, anywhere there's a rebellion people learn to make these weapons, and learn their new way of life, the lone wolf needs his primary weapon, a sniper probably, the massive group will start to craft some crazy weapons, go through town, and claim electro theirs and rebuild civilization, the freshie has his flashlight.

[TwinSpire 49]

As a player the only real thing I can do is voice my opinion and vote with my play.

 

If heavy weapons and vehicles are added to the game I will just stop playing.  Dayz appeals to me because it is at its core survival (though more survival needs to be added, I had more fun when almost starving trying to get to the next town).

 

All the videos I have seen of Dayz Mod didn't look like survival at all.  If I wanted a military based game there are tons of other options that give me that.  

 

Dayz gives me the fear of starving, fear of strangers not the fear of an attack helicopter.

 

Back in the day I played SWG MMORPG, imo it was vastly more challenging before they added vehicles.  I spent most of my game play running to the furthest corners of the planets to mine the best materials...  Due to the mobility issues that gave me purpose on the server and I became a successful materials merchant and I had fun doing it while others had fun doing other things.  The moment vehicles were introduced everyone threw up mining equipment and my job became worthless and not nearly as rewarding.  I prided myself going through the work to find the best mining locations for the best materials...

 

I fear even vehicles will do the same to dayz, part of the struggle is moving from location to location on the map, you get rid of that struggle and the game is just that much easier.

[Combine (DayZ) 247]

Etherimp,

 

You make it seem like people (a group) on one server could do it for hours. How many shells do you think they could scavenge or use / waste and how long? The line of sight argument is also an advantage because you'd have none. Or you'd have to have a spotter on scene to direct it. As long as it's not simple to use and with slight deviation every time, you could survive that.

 

Again, a squad could camp a location longer and more effectively than temporary mortar fire could. It's kinda "balanced out". I also don't think the "Go play COD / BF4" stuff is helping.

[ilikeguns 12]

Here's a simple reason why some people do not want heavy weapons: They're not appropriate for DayZ.

 

Why are they not appropriate? I am DayZ player just like you and I think that they are very appropriate.

 

 

If you want heavy weapons there are plenty of games which offer them.

Furthermore, vehicles can easily be destroyed with high-caliber rounds.

Other games are pointless, no reason to fight when enemies just respawn and ready for action again without looking for beans first.

 

 

 

 

Mortars are devastating to structures and infantry, but a setting like DayZ  would not be appropriate for people to realistically use mortars.. They would simply be used to shoot into towns and frag fresh spawns. You say "Oh well people already kill fresh spawns!".. Yeah, but currently people have to have line-of-sight on a fresh spawn to do so.. With Mortars they could sit 2000m away and fire over a hill, bombarding heavily frequented structures, killing everyone inside EVERY TIME.. there's no counter-play for that from the perspective of a fresh spawn (or even someone with an assault rifle.).. That mortar team could literally be ANYWHERE within a certain radius. At least sniper rifles you can hear the shots.

 

The way I see it they should be rare, so noone will waste them on fresh spawns. And even if someone does that occasionally, no big deal.

 

 

Fortunately, no matter how much some people want this, I highly doubt it will ever happen in DayZ,

 

This is where I agree with you except for the 'fortunately' part.

 

 

 

 

As a player the only real thing I can do is voice my opinion and vote with my play.

 

If heavy weapons and vehicles are added to the game I will just stop playing.  Dayz appeals to me because it is at its core survival (though more survival needs to be added, I had more fun when almost starving trying to get to the next town).

 

All the videos I have seen of Dayz Mod didn't look like survival at all.  If I wanted a military based game there are tons of other options that give me that.  

 

Dayz gives me the fear of starving, fear of strangers not the fear of an attack helicopter.

 

Back in the day I played SWG MMORPG, imo it was vastly more challenging before they added vehicles.  I spent most of my game play running to the furthest corners of the planets to mine the best materials...  Due to the mobility issues that gave me purpose on the server and I became a successful materials merchant and I had fun doing it while others had fun doing other things.  The moment vehicles were introduced everyone threw up mining equipment and my job became worthless and not nearly as rewarding.  I prided myself going through the work to find the best mining locations for the best materials...

 

I fear even vehicles will do the same to dayz, part of the struggle is moving from location to location on the map, you get rid of that struggle and the game is just that much easier.

Let's see how much of that will be left in you after playing DayZ for year or something. I've been playing pretty much since the beginning of the mod, not bragging, just saying so you would better understand my point, I know Chernarus like the back of my hand and I don't want to struggle even moving from point A to point B. I want to do things, perform operations, be a part of a mobile group etc, do things in military or PMC style. But, and this is an important part of my vision, I don't want it to be the only way to play, not saying that the game should change, but that it should expand, we should all be able to play DayZ the way we want. And when I die I go looking for beans like everyone else, not respawn on my base fully geared. There should be room for many playstyles.

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

Give it a rest. Heavy weapons have next to no place in DayZ and, although the advocates have some ideals about their use, they would simply be used to grief other players with relative immunity. If anything of the sort is ever added to DayZ then they should be exceptionally rare, exceptionally hard to get working again and difficult to use once fixed. Then they'd be balanced.

[ilikeguns 12]

 If anything of the sort is ever added to DayZ then they should be exceptionally rare, exceptionally hard to get working again and difficult to use once fixed. Then they'd be balanced.

This is for sure, all good stuff should be hard to get, otherwise there would be no point in having anything else. Like with ballistic helmets now, I maybe want to wear a cowboy hat but bam there is that helmet again and I am taking it despite the fact that I am sick of always wearing the helmet.

[TwinSpire 49]

Why are they not appropriate? I am DayZ player just like you and I think that they are very appropriate.

 

 

Other games are pointless, no reason to fight when enemies just respawn and ready for action again without looking for beans first.

 

 

 

 

The way I see it they should be rare, so noone will waste them on fresh spawns. And even if someone does that occasionally, no big deal.

 

 

This is where I agree with you except for the 'fortunately' part.

 

 

 

 

Let's see how much of that will be left in you after playing DayZ for year or something. I've been playing pretty much since the beginning of the mod, not bragging, just saying so you would better understand my point, I know Chernarus like the back of my hand and I don't want to struggle even moving from point A to point B. I want to do things, perform operations, be a part of a mobile group etc, do things in military or PMC style. But, and this is an important part of my vision, I don't want it to be the only way to play, not saying that the game should change, but that it should expand, we should all be able to play DayZ the way we want. And when I die I go looking for beans like everyone else, not respawn on my base fully geared. There should be room for many playstyles.

 

Sorry but in my opinion you are trying to make Dayz into something else.  

 

On the steam description of the game "DayZ is a gritty, authentic, open-world survival horror hybrid-MMO game, in which players follow a single goal: to survive in the harsh post-apocalyptic landscape as long as they can."

 

It is a survival horror game... not a "perform operations" or "Do things in military or PMC style" game.

 

At some point a game has to be what it is, both your opinion and mine conflict in such a way that DayZ literally CAN'T be as open to "room for many playstyles".  The only way it could would be to split off... DayZ Survival, DayZ Military etc.

 

A game can't be everyting to everyone.  If the Devs want to do military stuff like the mod, that is their right.  I will just stop playing that is all.

Edited February 15, 2014 by TwinSpire

[AlexLM 31]

Give it a rest. Heavy weapons have next to no place in DayZ and, although the advocates have some ideals about their use, they would simply be used to grief other players with relative immunity. If anything of the sort is ever added to DayZ then they should be exceptionally rare, exceptionally hard to get working again and difficult to use once fixed. Then they'd be balanced.

Agreed on the rarity. Have any weapon over 7.62 broken up. Realistically on a DShK-caliber weapon you'd need to replace barrels regularly, at the least. Continuing to fire with ruined barrels could result in the gun jamming, ruining the rest of the mechanism or even blowing it up and injuring the operator. In addition any heavy weapons added that aren't added to vehicles should have to be carried in pieces - the gun itself carried by one player, in both hands unable to be fired, with another player carrying the tripod mount. Both should be unable to sprint and made exhausted quicker by carrying the gun.

 

I'd reiterate that there is a place for guns being attached to hilux-type pickups. But realistically a truck entering a city like elektro or cherno would be destroyed pretty fast. And as they'd mainly be travelling on roads, the majority of players stay off the tarmac anyway and should be able to avoid and ambush them with IED's or just regular automatic rifles. They're actually quite thin-skinned and an AK round would easily penetrate.

[TwinSpire 49]

 

 

I'd reiterate that there is a place for guns being attached to hilux-type pickups. But realistically a truck entering a city like elektro or cherno would be destroyed pretty fast. And as they'd mainly be travelling on roads, the majority of players stay off the tarmac anyway and should be able to avoid and ambush them with IED's or just regular automatic rifles. They're actually quite thin-skinned and an AK round would easily penetrate.

 

I personally would agree with vehicles on roads comment.  IMO they vehicles should have HUGE penalties for going off road, risk of damage etc.  This would imo make the benefits of vehicles more counter-able and risky.

Edited February 15, 2014 by TwinSpire

[ilikeguns 12]

Sorry but in my opinion you are trying to make Dayz into something else.  

 

No, I like it for what it is. I just want more possibilities. Actually it is pretty important to me that what we have now also stays.

 

 

A game can't be everyting to everyone. 

I hope it can. Maybe it is just an idealistic dream of mine.

[Daemonkid 493]

The game becomes boring when nobody can touch you.

 

The game becomes boring when you can't compete with someone because they out-gear you.

 

In the mod, the difference between a Lee Enfield or a Winchester (which could be found anywhere), and a DMR, or MK Mod 0... 

 

Lee Enfield had no scope, but did as much damage as a DMR or MK Mod.

Winchester had no scope, but could kill in 1-2 shots.

 

The Range of the Winchester was 100-200 meters.. maybe.

The Range of the Lee was 400+

 

The DMR was considered by many to be "the most powerful weapon", simply because it was the only sniper rifle you could use night vision with.. and imo, that made it overpowered. The Mod needed to either make ALL scoped weapons compatible with Night Vision, or none of them.

The MK Mod had an incredible rate of fire and did tons of damage, but lacked long range capability outside of .. say.. 300 meters. 

 

So, the DMR and MK Mod were better than the Lee and Winchester, YES.. so it gave people a reason to search out the better weapons, AND it gave the players who had them high value targets..

 

Thing is, you could still kill those players with some skill and patience. Get in close or catch them by surprise, and suddenly the Winchester or Lee aren't so bad.. In fact they're quite capable.

 

 

Now compare that to a armored Humvee driving through Elektro lighting up fresh spawns with a full auto .50 Cal Machine Gun mounted on the roof...How is anyone with a Winchester or Lee Enfield (Or Mosin/SKS) going to counter that? Answer is: They can't.

 

Same with Mortars. They don't need line of sight on a target to bombard it.... And furthermore, there would be no reason to bombard anything other than to harass players who are less geared than you, which is not fun for those players and would get boring for you.

 

Every game play decision needs to have counter-play in order to make it fun for both sides.

You counter that heavily armed humvee via shooting out that mother fuckers tires. Lob a molotov onto the hood. Start plinking away at the rest of the tires. Sure, they still have the mounted gun, but do they get out at risk getting shot by everyone that sees it, or stay in their heavily armed immobile fortress car?

[Combine (DayZ) 247]

It is a survival horror game... not a "perform operations" or "Do things in military or PMC style" game.

 

At some point a game has to be what it is, both your opinion and mine conflict in such a way that DayZ literally CAN'T be as open to "room for many playstyles".  The only way it could would be to split off... DayZ Survival, DayZ Military etc.

 

A game can't be everyting to everyone.  If the Devs want to do military stuff like the mod, that is their right.  I will just stop playing that is all.

 

I do believe it can be all. DayZ - It's your story (slogan or whatever). There are already military like operations going on in military groups. Simple because of their unique stories on how things developed, etc.

 

It is what people make it to be. It does not conflict with survival to find a mortar or heavy MG that has to be deployed in order to be used effectively. These things are already balanced because you won't run around with the MG like rambo on your own, need time to (re)deploy and you can be flanked while giving you a limited but good area of suppression. Same for mortars, they come with advantages and disadvantages and would obviously be rare, with both them and ammo being restricted to certain spawns. And not viable to use for loners or to suppress loners themselves.

 

But maybe that is just me. You can't make it right for all, after all. I simply think it can fit in. It depends on what you want to accept. Still, groups will see focus on them with all the planned features. If you make stuff hard to get, repair or maintain it'll automatically put the focus on groups in order to achieve that. And thus comes group warfare, and in turn some sort of justification for these items to be used.

[fitzee 248]

Hi.

 

I admittedly didn't read this entire thread.

 

That said, god no. Please no artillery style weapons. Thats all we need, a clan of douche bags gathering the crap then nuking cities. It would be like the hackers that ruined the mod. All over again, and again, and again. :facepalm:

 

Regards.

[soulfirez 901]

At this point all i can say is it no wonder the dev team dont look to these forums to stay in touch with the fans of the game and keep to reddit and such ....

 

Just look at the quality of the ideas and the mentality of the people in these forums.....