Raw Mouse Input Is Crucial To Immersion

[sidwulf 69]

It's not like I think that you should be able to do a 180 in a split second, but at the same time quick movements within your field of view definitely shouldn't be affected by negative mouse acceleration as it gives the illusion of input delay.

 

Try an experiment. Get out of your chair and pretend your holding a weapon and then a comparable heavy object. Now jump into a 180 degree spin to face the other direction. Most often this will take less then a second. There is a noticeable difference compared to moving the mouse 180 degrees (moderate sensitivity) but it does not appear to be of great significance. Also note: the higher the mouse sensitivity the more inaccurate your aim tends to be. Your muscle memory will have far less room for error after completing a 180 turn to land on target. This should be considered when thinking of the real life instability.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[sidwulf 69]

I think he's referring to actual real world physics.

 

It is easier for the human body to turn and shoot with a revolver than it would be with the bravo. That's just a fact i'm afriad

 

I am referring to real world physics and their interpretation in game.

[Intactus 128]

I am referring to real world physics and their interpretation in game.

Look, Sidwulf, i understand your argument, but the thing is... This game, or atleast the Mod/Arma is a milsim and hopefully it stays true to it's roots.

That means it tries it's best to mimic real humans doing those thing you do ingame. No human in real life wields a 4kg assault rifle as nimbly as one wields a mouse, right? So we need to balance that out somehow. When you do wield a weapon, you do NOT jerk it wildly around etc. You handle the weapon in a precise controlled manner. Doing shit "real fast" only slows you down. The neg. acceleration tries to reward steady controlled handling and procure a penalty for hasty uncontrolled/unrealistic handling. Does this start to make sense to you? At all? The negative movement also rewards the player that keeps his cool and control in a tight spot and penalizes the the twitchy scared player.

Now... Ofc there would be BETTER way to do this i'm sure. For example heavy momentum to weapon movement would be best imho. Player trying to move too quickly in a fast situation would aim well past of his target again and again or spray blindly, which would produce a MASSIVE recoil if the gun is on the move while shooting etc. Hopefully we get there at some point but for the time being, we are stuck with this way of handling things. Understanding shit makes them easier to accept, wouldn't you agree?

Now..

 

 

This games main limit right now if the completely wonky way the character moves.  It is like the Resident Evil games of the 90's.  The character moves more like a tank than a human.

Really? Check this out:

Does that look like BF4 to you? Does it look like a fucking Jackie Chan movie? No - People ARE sluggish and slow. These guys aren't wearing but a light gear, no pack and sure as shit aren't doing this the first time around. Flat clear space. I bet no-one's even keeping count of the score on target...

I agree that there's a lot work to be done with the movement at this point but you really should not compare it to your average FPS game since moving in those games is about acquiring a new target. In this game it's a tactical instrument you should learn how to use, as in most combat situations in real life.

Just... Use your head.

edit:grammar

Edited January 30, 2014 by Intactus

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

Once and for all people! Download Mark C's mousefix. How many times do I need to say it. Download that shit. Follow instructions. Enjoy 1:1 mouse movement. End/thread

 

If you were all spending less time bitching and more time looking for solutions you'd have found this like I did many many weeks ago.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Irenicus

[Ghostflux 100]

Try an experiment. Get out of your chair and pretend your holding a weapon and then a comparable heavy object. Now jump into a 180 degree spin to face the other direction. Most often this will take less then a second. There is a noticeable difference compared to moving the mouse 180 degrees (moderate sensitivity) but it does not appear to be of great significance. Also note: the higher the mouse sensitivity the more inaccurate your aim tends to be. Your muscle memory will have far less room for error after completing a 180 turn to land on target. This should be considered when thinking of the real life instability.

The point here isn't how it works in real life. It's how the game tries to translate real life weapon holding behaviour in some very clunky and unintuitive ways. The way the mouse operates is central towards not only aiming your weapon, but the way you move as well. The largest problem is that any type of acceleration causes for massive inconsistencies as it's very hard to get used to. In real life, you would be able to feel whatever you're carrying and compensate for that. It's not like real life where looking, holding your weapon and moving around are all seperate movements that can be done simultaneously.

That's why I am not too happy about the how ARMA engine tries to emulate this in an entirely artificial and inaccurate way.

[somethingbloody 118]

I agree that the mouse handling should be brought up to Arma 3 standard. However, you can't just whip it out and leave it. We need another system implemented to simulate the same issue.

We can't reward some-one doing a snap 180 with high sensitivity with a kill on some-one who has positioned themselves well. What if you're holding some-one up and convincing him to drop his weapon and he turns impossibly fast and snap headshots you?

I would probably add an accuracy penalty after moving your point of aim more than say ninety degrees. Then you could still try that shot, but you won't be as accurate.

[machiavelli 38]

Once and for all people! Download Mark C's mousefix. How many times do I need to say it. Download that shit. Follow instructions. Enjoy 1:1 mouse movement. End/thread

If you were all spending less time bitching and more time looking for solutions you'd have found this like I did many many weeks ago.

The accell is engine based. This fix won't do anything, as it's the engine doing it. If it seems to have worked for you, good.

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

FFS did you guys even read my post? OK then just ignore it if you want to give yourselves reasons to continue to complain. But the fix is there and it's not hard to install. I enjoy 1:1 mouse movement in DayZ...if you want to then follow my above post. Otherwise stop bitching about it.

[Irenicus (DayZ) 289]

The accell is engine based. This fix won't do anything, as it's the engine doing it. If it seems to have worked for you, good.

Incorrect. Try it. It works. The engine cannot enforce acceleration when it is completely disabled. Nice try but before arguing I suggest you try it. It works.

Another person who complains yet when given a solution ignores it. Oh well your loss. And I know a little bit about fixing issues with software and PCs in general, and can tell you this indeed works otherwise I wouldn't be trying to share it.

 

I agree it should be possible to disable it in-game instead of using this fix but since that's the only way to disable it.....

Edited January 30, 2014 by Irenicus

[sidwulf 69]

Incorrect. Try it. It works. The engine cannot enforce acceleration when it is completely disabled. Nice try but before arguing I suggest you try it. It works.

Another person who complains yet when given a solution ignores it. Oh well your loss. And I know a little bit about fixing issues with software and PCs in general, and can tell you this indeed works otherwise I wouldn't be trying to share it.

 

Incorrect. the issue this topic deals with is not acceleration. Turn speed limitation and vertical weapon weight simulation is what is being discussed.

 

It is okay though, this as a common misconception.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[machiavelli 38]

Incorrect. Try it. It works. The engine cannot enforce acceleration when it is completely disabled. Nice try but before arguing I suggest you try it. It works.

Another person who complains yet when given a solution ignores it. Oh well your loss. And I know a little bit about fixing issues with software and PCs in general, and can tell you this indeed works otherwise I wouldn't be trying to share it.

I agree it should be possible to disable it in-game instead of using this fix but since that's the only way to disable it.....

You can come off the pedestal anytime now...

It's been tried. It does nothing, as the accell is done by the engine, not windows.

This topic though is an argument on whether or not the engine should attempt to simulate more "realistic" movement and how it's done. Subtly different.

[deepfried 95]

+1 for no mouse acceleration or smoothing.

 

Ultimately its a question of user friendliness and convenience.  Messing with the mouse input results in an unstable and artificial learning curve, which will be at odds with skills learned from other first person games. 

 

All I ask for is to be able to adjust the sensitivity from the menu within reasonable ranges (its currently not reasonably, the lowest setting is still very fast if you have a high DPI mouse), and for there to be no acceleration.  Thats all I ask.

[sidwulf 69]

You can come off the pedestal anytime now...

It's been tried. It does nothing, as the accell is done by the engine, not windows.

This topic though is an argument on whether or not the engine should attempt to simulate more "realistic" movement and how it's done. Subtly different.

 

Negative acceleration is not the problem. ARMA II's Turn speed limitation (Weapon weight penalty) is commonly mistaken for negative acceleration. And this modifier is highly unintuitive and unsuited for an input device such as the mouse.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[sidwulf 69]

Look, Sidwulf, i understand your argument, but the thing is... This game, or atleast the Mod/Arma is a milsim and hopefully it stays true to it's roots.

That means it tries it's best to mimic real humans doing those thing you do ingame. No human in real life wields a 4kg assault rifle as nimbly as one wields a mouse, right? So we need to balance that out somehow. When you do wield a weapon, you do NOT jerk it wildly around etc. You handle the weapon in a precise controlled manner. Doing shit "real fast" only slows you down. The neg. acceleration tries to reward steady controlled handling and procure a penalty for hasty uncontrolled/unrealistic handling. Does this start to make sense to you? At all? The negative movement also rewards the player that keeps his cool and control in a tight spot and penalizes the the twitchy scared player.

Now... Ofc there would be BETTER way to do this i'm sure. For example heavy momentum to weapon movement would be best imho. Player trying to move too quickly in a fast situation would aim well past of his target again and again or spray blindly, which would produce a MASSIVE recoil if the gun is on the move while shooting etc. Hopefully we get there at some point but for the time being, we are stuck with this way of handling things. Understanding shit makes them easier to accept, wouldn't you agree?

Now..

 

 

Really? Check this out:

Does that look like BF4 to you? Does it look like a fucking Jackie Chan movie? No - People ARE sluggish and slow. These guys aren't wearing but a light gear, no pack and sure as shit aren't doing this the first time around. Flat clear space. I bet no-one's even keeping count of the score on target...

I agree that there's a lot work to be done with the movement at this point but you really should not compare it to your average FPS game since moving in those games is about acquiring a new target. In this game it's a tactical instrument you should learn how to use, as in most combat situations in real life.

Just... Use your head.

edit:grammar

 

I understand all of your points and sympathize with what a military simulation tries to achieve. Undoubtedly compromise should be made when it comes to an accurate and responsive input device such as a mouse. Raw input is more practical compared to finding a solution to a problem with seemingly infinite variables such as weapon weight, solider skill, soldier strength, centre of gravity. ARMA II is trying to simulate something that is impossible to simulate correctly using an unconventional analogue (the mouse).

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[deepfried 95]

Well if its a question of simulating realistic limitations then what the hell is wrong with doing it the same way nearly every other game does? with expanding crosshairs, i.e. when you move your aim the crosshairs widen and the base accuracy of the gun decreases, the faster you move the wider the crosshair, and thats easy enough to add modifiers for more unwieldly weapons like machine guns and sniper rifles. Just don't fuck with the actual mouse movement of the reticule.

 

Simple.

[sidwulf 69]

Well if its a question of simulating realistic limitations then what the hell is wrong with doing it the same way nearly every other game does? with expanding crosshairs, i.e. when you move your aim the crosshairs widen and the base accuracy of the gun decreases, the faster you move the wider the crosshair, and thats easy enough to add modifiers for more unwieldly weapons like machine guns and sniper rifles. Just don't fuck with the actual mouse movement of the reticule.

 

Simple.

 

Exactly. The mouse input should not be modified directly. What you are suggesting is an acceptable indirect solution.

 

Will be added to the original post.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[minime1000 78]

 

Does that look like BF4 to you? Does it look like a fucking Jackie Chan movie? No - People ARE sluggish and slow. These guys aren't wearing but a light gear, no pack and sure as shit aren't doing this the first time around. Flat clear space. I bet no-one's even keeping count of the score on target...

I agree that there's a lot work to be done with the movement at this point but you really should not compare it to your average FPS game since moving in those games is about acquiring a new target. In this game it's a tactical instrument you should learn how to use, as in most combat situations in real life.

Just... Use your head.

edit:grammar

I didn't know I was a fully geared soldier holding a heavy lmg in the game going from prone to running constantly.

If BF4 and Red Orchestra can implement restrictions like preventing you from turning around too fast when prone or depending on situation and weapon then surely can a veteran dev like BI.

[Window Licker 504]

Once and for all people! Download Mark C's mousefix. How many times do I need to say it. Download that shit. Follow instructions. Enjoy 1:1 mouse movement. End/thread

 

If you were all spending less time bitching and more time looking for solutions you'd have found this like I did many many weeks ago.

I'll see you all next week with an "I got banned for no reason post"

All joking aside....

 

If you take a broom handle tuck one end under your arm, then tape a milk cap to a pillow or your buddies head, spin 180 deg and put the end of the broom on the milk cap, now repeat the experiment with a weight bar with say 5 lbs on it.  It's not the same result, while most fps games deal with this by increasing dispersion DayZ is designed as a simulator not a shooter if what he says is to be believed you'll be lucky to have a rifle in the finished product.

[sidwulf 69]

I'll see you all next week with an "I got banned for no reason post"

All joking aside....

 

If you take a broom handle tuck one end under your arm, then tape a milk cap to a pillow or your buddies head, spin 180 deg and put the end of the broom on the milk cap, now repeat the experiment with a weight bar with say 5 lbs on it.  It's not the same result, while most fps games deal with this by increasing dispersion DayZ is designed as a simulator not a shooter if what he says is to be believed you'll be lucky to have a rifle in the finished product.

 

Yes that sounds quite difficult, but please understand that the mouse is an unconventional analogue which needs an unconventional (indirect) solution. Expansion of the reticle and dispersion is an acceptable solution.

[27 others 102]

i did another topic on that matter, going very in-depth. my solution does not contain raw 1:1 input, tho.

you can check it out http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/163485-why-mouse-acceleration-in-first-person-desperately-needs-fixing-2-long-post/

 

also 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/160187-make-1st-person-less-clunky-remove-mouse-acceleration-deceleration-smoothing/#entry1609143

[Gerandar 212]

I'll see you all next week with an "I got banned for no reason post"

All joking aside....

 

If you take a broom handle tuck one end under your arm, then tape a milk cap to a pillow or your buddies head, spin 180 deg and put the end of the broom on the milk cap, now repeat the experiment with a weight bar with say 5 lbs on it.  It's not the same result, while most fps games deal with this by increasing dispersion DayZ is designed as a simulator not a shooter if what he says is to be believed you'll be lucky to have a rifle in the finished product.

Dayz is not a simulator, it doesn't state anywhere in the games description stop thinking its something it isn't.

[27 others 102]

the devs justified the existance of mouse acceleration by it being "more realistic" -> simulator

 

 

the thing is mouse acceleration, as it is implemented right now, actually makes it less realistic.

Edited January 30, 2014 by 27 others

[sidwulf 69]

i did another topic on that matter, going very in-depth. my solution does not contain raw 1:1 input, tho.

you can check it out http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/163485-why-mouse-acceleration-in-first-person-desperately-needs-fixing-2-long-post/

 

also 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/160187-make-1st-person-less-clunky-remove-mouse-acceleration-deceleration-smoothing/#entry1609143

 

What you are explaining is an extremely complex direct solution to a problem that needs a simple indirect solution. Remember the mouse is a u-n-co-n-v-e-n-t-i-o-n-a-l analogue for translating your entire body and its mechanics. Your hand movement in the X and Y axis is the only thing the mouse is recording and this raw data cannot be realistically translated. The only solution is to find an indirect way to translate the data into something realistic.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[doctorbadsign 645]

I will disagree with you. I get along just fine with the mouse input as jank as it is right now. There are about 20 other things I would rather have fixed over raw mouse input fixes. (some of which are going to be in the next patch)

 

Zombie walling

Combat logging

Server hopping

The ridiculous FPS killing sun rays of doom

Wall glitching

Fall damage (or lack thereof sometimes)

Zombie AI (which won't come until much much later im afraid)

Footstep audible consistency (or lack thereof right now)

Wall "seeing"

The NE airfield hanger glitch

Data networking between players for PvP (I.e. when you see him die and when he actually died)

DE-SYNC ISSUES

 

These are some of the examples of stuff I would put above Mouse input right now, because mouse input I can adapt to. Most of this stuff is completely out of my control as far as game play is concerned. 

 

I agree.

 

I have zero problems with how the mouse works, and I'd much rather wait until more pressing issues are fixed.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Try an experiment. Get out of your chair and pretend your holding a weapon and then a comparable heavy object. Now jump into a 180 degree spin to face the other direction. Most often this will take less then a second.

 

Now strap 40 pounds of gear to your back, hold an actual weapon instead of just pretending to hold one, and then do the same. Observe that you can no longer "jump and spin" quite as effectively, that the turn takes longer and that the end of your rifle is absolutely out of control all over the place during this maneuver.

 

Mouse input absolutely needs improvement, but 1:1 raw input is inappropriate for DayZ. It is not human movement and in my opinion it is major hit against, not for, immersion. One of the major reasons I never considered playing The WarZ was observing it's movement mechanics and how they mirrored games like Counterstrike where players feel weightless.

 

 

Well if its a question of simulating realistic limitations then what the hell is wrong with doing it the same way nearly every other game does?

 

The goal is not only to simulate realism with respect to weapon accuracy. It is to attempt to simulate realism with respect to actual human bodily motion, and that's something "every other game" doesn't concern itself with. When I play DayZ, I want to feel like a person, not a weightless superhuman avatar.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ZedsDeadBaby