Raw Mouse Input Is Crucial To Immersion

[sidwulf 69]

1:1 raw mouse input is essential for a synergistic brain→hand→mouse→screen feedback loop, think: man and machine. This synergy guarantees the user's own reaction time, dexterity and muscle memory is translated over. Moving a mouse quickly and accurately is a physical and mental skill. Any kind of positive/negative acceleration, smoothing, interpolation, prediction or other limitation will interfere with the translation of the user's natural movement. Mouse input should not be post processed at all (excluding sensitivity multipliers). The raw X/Y data from the mouse needs to be relayed directly into view panning. Raw input ensures user immersion through the preservation of the original data.

The ARMA II RV engine has been coded in attempt to simulate realism by altering that 1:1 ratio directly. The engine adds a turn speed limitation and simulates weapon weight (can feel like negative acceleration). While the developers had good intentions the result is counter productive as it creates inconsistency, inaccuracy, mouse lag and poor feedback. Also because of their non-linear function these modifiers have a negative effect on muscle memory (moving the mouse a certain distance consistently). Some areas in a games development need to be compromised in order to serve better functionality. Realism in this case needs to be applied indirectly because an input device such as the mouse is a very simple analogue to the human body. It is impossible to impose variables such as skill/strength/weight/momentum around the basic X/Y input of this device without affecting feedback in a negative way. A mouse and it's 1:1 relationship with the user's intended movement is essential. The issue of realism should be applied in a way that will not affect mouse input directly. Strictly speaking, the mouse is an unconventional analogue and will require an indirect solution.

An indirect solution and fair compromise:

Well if its a question of simulating realistic limitations then what the hell is wrong with doing it the same way nearly every other game does? with expanding crosshairs, i.e. when you move your aim the crosshairs widen and the base accuracy of the gun decreases, the faster you move the wider the crosshair, and thats easy enough to add modifiers for more unwieldly weapons like machine guns and sniper rifles. Just don't fuck with the actual mouse movement of the reticule.

Simple.

Brief status from the developers:

31.Is mouse acceleration being fixed?

32.It is not fixed in this update, but we plan to make control changes. It is not as simple as turning it "off" as the speed your character turns is not dictated by the mouse
itself, but your movements combined with the type of weapon you have, how tired you are, etc.

Edited February 2, 2014 by SIDWULF

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

I hope you have a fireproof jacket OP, there are a lot of people around here hostile to the notion of input that isn't crap.

[sidwulf 69]

I hope you have a fireproof jacket OP, there are a lot of people around here hostile to the notion of input that isn't crap.

 

I believe you have misunderstood, my argument is in support of raw mouse input, not against.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

I believe you have misunderstood, my argument is in support of raw mouse input, not against.

 

I wish I misunderstood, unfortunately I didn't. A lot of people around here will get all over your back because you are asking for better mouse input, they think the current implementation is realistic and will accuse you of wanting to turn DayZ in to a twitch ego shooter. It happens every time the subject comes up.

[Window Licker 504]

*Gets out a bag of cheeto's*

[Hagon94 74]

I second this. It needs to get fixed and it has to before the release, but I'm sure they will get arround to it or atleast improve it. Right now I have it set super low and turned smoothing almost completely off which helps but its still hard to get used to. The slightest movement goes suuuper fast while a fast movement goes super slow. It basically goes against everything you get to know as a PC gamer.

[minime1000 78]

This will be fun.

One guy will tell you neg mouse acceleration simulates constant panic and in real life you slow down when panicking.

[DeatHTaX 1217]

I will disagree with you. I get along just fine with the mouse input as jank as it is right now. There are about 20 other things I would rather have fixed over raw mouse input fixes. (some of which are going to be in the next patch)

 

Zombie walling

Combat logging

Server hopping

The ridiculous FPS killing sun rays of doom

Wall glitching

Fall damage (or lack thereof sometimes)

Zombie AI (which won't come until much much later im afraid)

Footstep audible consistency (or lack thereof right now)

Wall "seeing"

The NE airfield hanger glitch

Data networking between players for PvP (I.e. when you see him die and when he actually died)

DE-SYNC ISSUES

 

These are some of the examples of stuff I would put above Mouse input right now, because mouse input I can adapt to. Most of this stuff is completely out of my control as far as game play is concerned. 

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

Right now I have it set super low and turned smoothing almost completely off which helps but its still hard to get used to. The slightest movement goes suuuper fast while a fast movement goes super slow.

 

That's the only thing I found that helped, too: The old trick of turning in-game sensitivity to its lowest setting and increasing mouse sensitivity. Unfortunately for me I use quite high sensitivity settings on my mouse so I still get hit pretty hard with the negative acceleration after a certain threshold.

[sidwulf 69]

I wish I misunderstood, unfortunately I didn't. A lot of people around here will get all over your back because you are asking for better mouse input, they think the current implementation is realistic and will accuse you of wanting to turn DayZ in to a twitch ego shooter. It happens every time the subject comes up.

 

This is a shame raw input is perceived this way. I argue that it increases immersion. The fear of DayZ turning into a twitch shooter is unfounded. Raw input will not compromise fair game play because everyone will have the same advantage. Also considering the scale of DayZ and the players walking and running speed it is hard to see a situation in which a twitch shooter inspired deathmatch would arise. Possibly indoor combat would present a casual link but this effect would be small.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[DeatHTaX 1217]

This is a shame raw input is perceived this way. I argue that it increases immersion. The fear of DayZ turning into a twitch shooter is unfounded. Raw input will not compromise fair game play because everyone will have the same advantage. Also considering the scale of DayZ and the players walking and running speed it is hard to see a situation in which a twitch shooter inspired deathmatch would arise. Possibly indoor combat would present a casual link but this effect would be small.

 

Usually most OPs let the thread know when they change the title...Just sayin.

 

Completely changes your whole argument and discussion points from previous posts and makes it confusing for would-be readers

[sidwulf 69]

Usually most OPs let the thread know when they change the title...Just sayin.

 

Completely changes your whole argument and discussion points from previous posts and makes it confusing for would-be readers

 

I figured the original title was to demanding and did not match my argument. I do understand how that could be irritating. Apologies.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

Usually most OPs let the thread know when they change the title...Just sayin.

 

Completely changes your whole argument and discussion points from previous posts and makes it confusing for would-be readers

 

In fairness he used the word immersion in the OP multiple times, maybe that was his original argument. Just sayin'.

[DeatHTaX 1217]

I figured the original title was to demanding and did not match my argument.

 

Then it's usually appropriate to make an amendment to your original post stating what you changed your original title from and the new direction you're steering your discussion towards. :) or make another response stating said business

 

Just a suggestion

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The problem with raw input isn't so apparent right now, but if they added for example a large .50 cal sniper rifle, or something like an m240b light machine gun, I wouldn't want to be able to swing that thing around ready to fire with the slightest twitch. There should be some advantage to clearing close quarters with a close quarters weapon. With 1:1 raw input, everything moves the same, physics are ignored.

[sidwulf 69]

The problem with raw input isn't so apparent right now, but if they added for example a large .50 cal sniper rifle, or something like an m240b light machine gun, I wouldn't want to be able to swing that thing around ready to fire with the slightest twitch. There should be some advantage to clearing close quarters with a close quarters weapon. With 1:1 raw input, everything moves the same, physics are ignored.

 

The higher firing rate of close quarters weapons should be enough of an advantage in most situations. Lining up a single shot using a sniper rifle in close quarters with you target strafing about can be disorientating. Most often the target will land more hits before you get off a shot. Handling a weapon of moderate firing rate you are not overly concerned about getting it "right" with the first bullet. As for light machine guns, a large bullet spread while standing will have a decent effect on accuracy to further balance things out.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Higher firing rate of close quarters weapons should be enough of an advantage in most situations.

 

No. Just no.

[sidwulf 69]

No. Just no.

 

I do not agree. you will find the explanation in the last post.

Edited January 30, 2014 by SIDWULF

[Ghostflux 100]

Red Orchestra 2 has a pretty nice way of handling weapons. It feels nowhere near as unresponsive and clunky as ARMA without sacrificing too much realism.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

The biggest problem in this game for me at this point is the mouse acceleration. I started playing competitive Counter-Strike in 2000 and haven't used mouse acceleration since. Playing/testing DayZ has been a very hard adjustment for me. Almost to the point of it not being worth it, as when I go to play the other games I love, it takes about twenty minutes to get back into my groove.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

M240b has a higher fire rate than a revolver, but I think in tight cramped spaces, like in the barracks buildings for example, the m240b should have a difficult time maneuvering his huge weapon compared to the guy with the revolver, who can spin that thing around in an instant.

 

Think about a good old fashioned dual. Where you turn backs to each other, take ten paces, turn and fire. Would you rather have a pistol or a light machine gun? With which firearm would you be able to put a bullet into your enemy faster? (Imagine we could all shoot fairly good and the first shot will likely hit.)

[PhillyT 554]

This games main limit right now if the completely wonky way the character moves.  It is like the Resident Evil games of the 90's.  The character moves more like a tank than a human.

[sidwulf 69]

M240b has a higher fire rate than a revolver, but I think in tight cramped spaces, like in the barracks buildings for example, the m240b should have a difficult time maneuvering his huge weapon compared to the guy with the revolver, who can spin that thing around in an instant.

 

Think about a good old fashioned dual. Where you turn backs to each other, take ten paces, turn and fire. Would you rather have a pistol or a light machine gun? With which firearm would you be able to put a bullet into your enemy faster? (Imagine we could all shoot fairly good and the first shot will likely hit.)

 

Your logic is sound but you should take note most modern first person shooters with raw input take care of this problem by applying large bullet spread to LMG's without bi-pod deployment. It is believable that LMG's would be hard to control without the bi-pod deployed and cause a dramatic effect on bullet spread. In essence this takes care of the problem while preserving raw input. 

[Ghostflux 100]

It's not like I think that you should be able to do a 180 in a split second, but at the same time quick movements within your field of view definitely shouldn't be affected by negative mouse acceleration as it gives the illusion of input delay.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ghostflux

[DeatHTaX 1217]

Your logic is sound but you should take note most modern first person shooters with raw input take care of this problem by applying large bullet spread to LMG's without bi-pod deployment. It is believable that LMG's would be hard to control without the bi-pod deployed and cause a dramatic effect on bullet spread. In essence this takes care of the problem while preserving raw input. 

 

I think he's referring to actual real world physics.

 

It is easier for the human body to turn and shoot with a revolver than it would be with the bravo. That's just a fact i'm afriad